Composite deck opinions?

Temp6313048411121614

Don't know if this should be here or D&R.  DH and I would really like to put in a composite deck in the next month or maybe 2.  What brand did you use and do you like it or regret it?  It'll probably be something from Lowes or Home Depot.  TIA.

mae141

We just got a new deck a few months ago and I was all for composite, but our deck guy actually talked us out of it. He pretty much said it's just not worth the cost- and I was willing to pay. I actually can't remember all the arguments against it, and there were some good ones, but he said that the upkeep on a wood deck is fairly minimal because the pressure treated wood is better than it used to be or something. So DH was pretty happy that we were spending about a third of what we would have.

Temp6313048411121614

We can't use pressure treated here.  We have to use composite, redwood, or cedar.

FoxinFiji

The only thing that has changed with pressure treated wood is that you can no longer put arsenic after 2003.  It doesn't last any longer is just doesn't give your kids cancer. 

Composite decks have a lot less maintenance but cost significantly more.  Some brands also had issues with mold growth but those issues are said to have been worked out.  It will most likely be cheaper to get the composite materials from an actual lumber yard not a big box store so compare prices (look at manufacturer's websites like Aztec).  We DIY installed a 225 lf composite fence a couple years ago and we are so happy we spent the extra on composite over cedar.  It has held up great and never needs staining.  Decks should be re-stained every 5 years or less depending on weather exposure so keep that in mind. 

pdxmouse

How much shade does your fence get? From what I've been reading it seems like more shade = more mold. Living in the PNW and having a yard in shade, it seems unlikely that our deck will totally dry out more than a few times a year. So while we're also considering composite, I'm pretty wary.

Of course, if we go with wood, there's the stain issue still. Seeing as we get all that rain, stain is a yearly chore.

Bleh. If the backdoor was at ground level this wouldn't be an issue. 

FoxinFiji

It gets a lot of shade because we built it in the woods.  Mold isn't an issue though because fences are vertical not horizontal like decks that can hold moisture.  I've read that some people solve their mold issues by lightly pressure washing and/or cleaning the deck each year...similar to what you do before you stain a deck only you skip that part.  The one thing we have found is that the top few inches of the fence in some areas have warped slightly from heat/sun.  This wouldn't be a problem on a deck because the whole length especially the ends would be fastened.  But because the ground changes elevation the upper rail is a different heights in areas. 

The composite pickets themselves we got on sale for only $.99 a piece (same as cedar in our area) but the post covers, rail covers, and gate accessories is where they really jack up the price.  We got away with only using a few post covers in a few areas for decoration, didn't use rail covers, and made our own gates but it still cost more than a cedar fence would.  Because we did it ourselves we saved a lot more though!  We were quoted $14K for a composite fence and $6K for a cedar fence.  We DIYed a composite fence for $4K which included hiring someone to install +60 metal posts for us. 

Yeah staining becomes a continuous process around here too with the snow we get.  People need to stain decks every 2-3 years to keep them nice but if you are lazy you can get away with putting it off longer though you risk more wear and tear on the wood.  

How far above the ground is your back door?  Could you just build up some cement stairs that lead to a patio?  We have both a patio and a porch (which is painted treated wood) and we much prefer the patio!  So much less work and nice for parties (people and kids can easily transition from patio to lawn because it's on the same level).  We plan to eventually replace the porch and covered porch with composite someday.

pdxmouse

It's 3 feet off the ground. Right now the plan is to cut it down to the worlds tiniest deck (or I guess porch?), just 8 (width of the door) by 6. Right now it's 11 deep x 20 wide... in a yard that's 30 deep by 50 wide. So about 1/3 of the yard is deck. It just kind of hovers there. And the view from it is our fence, a bunch of cedar trunks and the neighbor's dog run.

Maybe smaller will mean easier maintenance too?  Everything is twisting, popping and cupping all over the place (it was like that when we moved in), but it looks to me like the space between the joists is really wide, 20" iirc. If we build smaller I think we can afford a bit more redundancy, I think that'll help?

We're planning on putting a loose flagstone patio together for the outdoor furniture to rest on. I'd like to actually be down in the yard rather than hovering above it.

pdxmouse

I hadn't considered cement. The two problems I see is I'd worry about the slipperiness and Mr M really loves the way wood looks. Still, I'll add it the mull it over pile, thanks!

~NB~

pdxmouse:

It's 3 feet off the ground. Right now the plan is to cut it down to the worlds tiniest deck (or I guess porch?), just 8 (width of the door) by 6. Right now it's 11 deep x 20 wide... in a yard that's 30 deep by 50 wide. So about 1/3 of the yard is deck. It just kind of hovers there. And the view from it is our fence, a bunch of cedar trunks and the neighbor's dog run.

Maybe smaller will mean easier maintenance too?  Everything is twisting, popping and cupping all over the place (it was like that when we moved in), but it looks to me like the space between the joists is really wide, 20" iirc. If we build smaller I think we can afford a bit more redundancy, I think that'll help?

We're planning on putting a loose flagstone patio together for the outdoor furniture to rest on. I'd like to actually be down in the yard rather than hovering above it.

This configuration sounds like my backyard- my deck is about 1/3 of my space, and 4' high, but I love the view from above ground level. It's got joist spacing similar to yours as well, but it is made of pressure treated lumber. I've never had mold issues, but I have had a green algae patina develop in shaded areas.

This is really a good thread- lots of info.

GoldenGibson

I think you need to google "Composite decking reviews" or something similar. I've seen A LOT of negative feedback from homeowners that have used composite decking with Trex being the worst. The main issues I've seen besides mold/black spots is the decking just disintigrating, especially in areas with full sunlight. Also, the deck color will fade and if you need to replace part of the decking a few years down the road you will not likely be able to match the color because even if it doesn't fade, each lot produced is slightly different.

GardenWeb forums has a lot of info on this, probably hundreds of threads on it.

dirtyred

We built a composite deck a few years ago and just love it!  No issues with fading or mold yet.  My husband, who has to deal with staining and sealing our wood fence, absolutely loves the low maintenance.

FoxinFiji

Composite is a relatively new product and people don't like change so there is bound to be a lot of negative feedback.  If composite decking was the norm and pressure treated wood was new to the market you would be reading a lot of negative comments on mold growth, having to often re-stain it, fading, warping, rotting, etc.  As I see there isn't any way composite is worse than treated or cedar because real wood does all those things too!  When your cedar fades and turns gray you don't get upset and try returning it to the lumber yard.  Composite isn't perfect it will need some maintenance but not near as much as real wood.  There is no no maintenance porch product on the market.  Composite also won't last forever...eventually they will need to be replaced similar to wood but the benefit is that they should last longer than wood.

We will be using composite because this is our "forever" home.  When I look at having to re-stain a porch every 3 years for the next 50 years I'm happy to pay for the additional cost of the composite.  I know 6 people with composite decks some in shade some in sun and they all love them.  I particularly like the look of the decks with medium/dark brown floor boards with contrasting white railing.

 

Pdx - Here is another option you could look at from one of my favorite blogs:

http://chezerbey.com/2011/03/22/the-2011-projects/

They have some transition stairs and a low flat deck that allows them to have no railing.  You could similarly have some wooden/composite steps that lead down to a patio.  It sound like a patio would be more your style.  Cement pavers can also be built up to create steps and they wouldn't be slippery...it's pretty easy just buy a lot of pavers and glue them together with masonry caulk.  You'll also need some way to attach the steps to the house (probably attach something to the ledger board that is there now for the deck) so they won't shift over time.  Another option would be to put down large, cut natural stone steps that are cut flat on the top and sides with a natural front edge.  Stone yards sell and can install them for you right on top of a paver or flagstone patio.  They would be more expensive but would match flagstone a lot better and wouldn't move over time. 

Like I said we love our patio because when there are a lot of people on it the party simply expands out into the yard instead of being cramped onto a porch with sides.  

If you do make a flagstone patio I'd recommend using polymeric sand instead of just compacted sand.  There are one or two brands of polymeric sand that can be used in larger gaps like you would have between stones.  You can read about our experience with flagstone and polymeric sand here:

http://threeacres.wordpress.com/2010/10/07/using-polymeric-sand-with-flagstone/

It's held up great so far!  It's kept out weeds and the many ant hills that was there before.  Figuring out what stones could fit where was the longest, hardest part.  

mae141

Aussie*s_Mom:

We can't use pressure treated here.  We have to use composite, redwood, or cedar.

 

I obviously don't really know anything about it, but I am curious why you can't use pressure treated?

 

pdxmouse

Nice job on the path! Do you have someone working with you or prior experience? I sometimes find myself a little overwhelmed when it comes to all the steps and hoping I get them right. 

We're talking about doing a loose grouping with the flagstone, kind of like a stepping stone path, but in a circle. Actually, we've been mulling over ideas and my mom gave us a bunch of Sunset Magazine books from the 70s. I came across one that used round slices of logs for a path (or patio). It wouldn't last long, but it was really cool looking. Lightweight, so it'd be easy to place/replace and we could try out the look before we committed to the agonies and expense of stone. We'd put some pretty groundcover in between. Luckily we might never be able to afford to move, so we really don't have to worry so much about resale as pleasing ourselves (ha!).

Temp6313048411121614

mae141:

 I obviously don't really know anything about it, but I am curious why you can't use pressure treated?

Our HOA is super strict.  They don't even allow staining or painting, only sealing.  We have to fill out a bunch of forms and send it in to have it approved.  It was the same deal when we put our fence in.

FoxinFiji

Oh the slices sound really cool!  I'm sure they will look amazing but not necessarily last a long time like you mentioned. 

We actually did two flagstone paths last year.  The polymeric sand one I linked above.  We dug down a few inches and put landscaping fabric with compacted fill gravel on top.  It's very solid and sturdy.  It was nice to put in the sand, wet it, and bam you're done!

 

The larger path we made is an alternative to our front door.  There was a large area that is in heavy shade and walked on a lot so it was always muddy.  I didn't want to do the polymeric sand there so it blended in with the lawn better but let me tell you I much prefer the poly. sand now!  Because we wanted to grow moss between the stones we had to put the flagstone directly on dirt.  We tried to just dig down the amount we needed to make the stones flush but it was hard as they are all different thicknesses.  After only one winter they are already beginning to shift probably from settling dirt.  We spent all that time getting everything level!  It's also still a big muddy mess because we needed to wait until this spring to transplant moss.  We have a lot of moss on our property so I'm trying to steal it from places you won't see.  But it's going to be a long process.  It's going to take a while for everything to spread and fill in (it's a big path!) and I'm going to have to pull all the weeds that will pop up in the moss.  The flagstones need to be far enough apart to get dirt and a patch of moss between but if they are too far apart you're walking a lot on the plants instead of the stones.  The polymeric sand is so much simpler and less maintenance!  Plus if you want to have patio furniture I'd be really worried sliding chairs and table legs would get stuck in the dirt or kill the plants I worked so hard to grow there. 

Just my two cents.

pdxmouse

Wisconsin gets frequent freezes in winter, yes? I know that can cause steps to pop out. I saw instructions once that recommended digging under each stone and putting in a layer of sand and gravel to help with drainage to minimize shifting. I don't know if that would be worth redoing a full path for though. We don't get many deep freezes in the Pacific Northwest, and the rounds are lightweight enough that I'm not too worried about popping for the trial run, but it will give me info on what will be necessary once we're ready for stone.

I was going to start with some high-traffic stepables or at least ones that spread quickly. It's really easy to grow things in this climate (well, unless they're sun/heat lovers) so I'm hoping any damage will be quickly covered up by new growth. I'll probably start with ajuga because I've fallen in love with it. We'll see.

We're getting bids for digging the posts and possibly the framing in a few weeks. I'm so excited to get started on this. 

ETA: thanks for all the advice. It really helps to have a sounding board and new ideas. 

FoxinFiji

Yes we get a lot of freezing which is what pops the stones up.  I went to a class that talked about flagstone paths and yes you're right gravel would help solve our popping problem but then we would have a hard time getting plants to grow with only a small layer of topsoil over gravel.  The instructor just recommended not using gravel.  I think when we have all of the cracks filled in with groundcover it will help stop some of the shifting along with just giving everything time to settle.  Luckily, it sounds like that won't be a problem for you!

OMG I love ajuga!  DH always jokes that I'm addicted to it.  I've been collecting varieties of it to fill in the dog yard (an area we want groundcovers so we don't have to mow).  Because they are pretty cheap I'm always coming home with new plants!  So far I have a lot of the standard courtesy of my yard, 'Black Scallop', 'Bronze Beauty', 'Burgundy Glow', 'Chocolate Chip, 'Mahogany', and 'Toffee Chip'.  I really love the look of the "chips" they have small leaves in cream, pale green, and burgundy colors.  The flowers aren't that great on them but they don't last very long anyway.  The dark purple 'Mahogany' and 'Black Scallop' varieties look really awesome but they don't spread very much.  The 'Bronze Beauty' and the standard varieties are the real spreaders for me. 

 

pdxmouse

The directions I saw showed only digging out directly under the stone 2-3" and placing gravel/sand there. I don't know if it'd be as effective, but at least you could still plant around it. Maybe it works better in milder climates, the article was in my local paper. I think that the groundcover could help hold them in place, especially if they start curling over the sides.

I just discovered "Chocolate Chip" and bought three. It doesn't seem to be spreading all that quickly, but I love the tiny leaves so I'll be patient. Last summer I put an ajuga (maybe black scallop?) in the wine barrel on the front porch, it spread itself around, and even started trailing down the sides. Unfortunately it didn't survive the deep freeze we had for a few days (I didn't think anything on the porch needed protection). Like you said it's cheap enough to try again.

MrsDL

We put a new deck on last year and debated materials. H is an engineer and works for a CG - but they do commercial and government work, not residential but he was very opinionated on this. In addition to composite which does have some wood in it (which is why you can get some discoloration and mold), the composite companies make completely synthetic products which look the same but no wood in it - no fading, no mold problems, looks great, nothing to maintain - they even make so it looks like some of the exotics when it comes to wood. We used this - we went with Azek. It cost more, but completely worth it imo if you'll be in your home for a long time. No sealing, re-staining, replacing, cracking, splitting, or even scratches - once it's done it is done. We love it, looks great.  IL's needed to restain and seal their wood deck again last year, saw ours and decided to just replace it with the same stuff so they don't have to do any upkeep in the future.