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Topic for debate
Ok so I was just talking to my colleague about the whole woman who had 8 babies thing. She was saying that drs should not be ALLOWED to do IVF with someone that has that many kids already. She also was saying that IVF and IUI have serious risks that go with them and that a dr should not do IVF on a woman with that many kids because he is taking her life as well as the lives of her 6 kids into his hands. She also thinks that if a dr. did reject someone for IF treatments because they have too many kids already, he would be within his rights to do so.
I TOTALLY disagree! I think it is rediculous that this woman has so many babies and I have to question the dr that did (allegedly) perform this IVF with her, isnt that many multiples a sign of neglegence on his side? BUT I do not agree that the state, insurance companies or even drs should have the right to tell a woman you have too many kids I will not assist you in having another one, UNLESS the dr feels that it would put her life at risk. That becomes a very slippery slope.
Discuss.....
Re: Topic for debate
i have to say that i personally feel like this woman used clomid or tamoxifen or something like it..she may have done iui , she may not have...i would like to believe that ethically an RE wouldn't implant 8 embros for IVF...
I also believe this is COMPLETE neglegence on the REs part NOT the pt..I know a responsible RE will tell you that they are NOT in the business to create multiples but to help infertile women have a health pregnancy..i have heard of other's iui or ti cycles being canceled due to the fact that they have had way too many mature follicle that cycle..i know some REs will even make you sign a waiver that you are aware you have too many and you won't try that month...and if you do try then it is against medical advise
I don't consider their to be extreme risk with just doing fertility treatments weither it be drugs,iui or ivf...BUT their are EXTREME risks to having multiples, not only to the babies but also the mother..
I am not sure how i feel about a person doing fert treatments when they alrerady have 6 kids...honestly, it isn't my place to say b/c i believe that women (and their spouces if they have one) need to decide what is best for them...something that may work for me may not work for others and vise versa...
I also can't blame the parents of these 8 kids for keeping all 8..meaning i know some people have brought up selectively reducing...i have not been in that situation so i am not sure what i would do...and this also goes back to what works best for me may not be the best for them...Plus, you have no idea what their religious beliefs may be...This also goes back to the RE...I dont believe a woman/couple would be in this situation had she had proper monitoring on her REs side
It is truely amazing to me that these babies were sooo big...my sister had 3 babies at once and none of them came close to 3 lbs...i know how hard it was on my sister's body and the complications she faced during her pregnancy..it is just amazing...
It is a slippery slope because there are already too many laws impeading on women's right over their own bodies.
Honestly, if you have a lot of children (like 6) it is selfish to push for IF treatments. How about putting that effort and money into the children you have already been blessed with. As many women here would probably agree, each child is a blessing - not part of a final tally.
The fact that people are going into treatments and REQUESTING multiples makes me a bit ill. If it happens, what a wonderful present, but the risks involved make it something not to strive for. A doctor should be able to refuse on grounds of potential health issues.
I usually don't like anyone else making a decision for a patient, especially a woman, but I can actually understand insurance companies refusing to pay in a situation like this since, from their p.o.v. those funds could go to a woman who doesn't have any children and truly needs treatment.
If a patient can afford the treatment on her own and can find a doctor to help her, then there shouldn't be LAWS against it, but I can also see an ethical doctor making his/her own choice not to be a part of that patient's treatment.
Like others have said, physicians make the choice for the safety of patients and potential children not to implant X number of embryos or not to advise sex when there is a chance of too many multiples. They should not refuse treatment if a patient chooses to forego their advice, but a doc shouldn't be held responsible for a patient's actions either.
I feel like I just talked in a circle...
Either way, I think it's just hard for me to watch some of you and my friends/family struggle with fertility and then hear about a situaiton like this in which the people may not (I haven't heard anything concrete) be able to afford this many kids yet they pursued a potentially dangerous situation. But, like Cyndi, I would never be able to selectively choose which embryos to keep if I were that woman either.
Just because we CAN do things medically doesn't mean we SHOULD. ?I think doctors should look at these situations carefully. ?No one can tell a woman what to do with her body, but a doctor can refuse to perform a procedure, as far as I know.
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The debate my colleague and I had was started by the woman with 8 kids and then just became a hypothetical situation. She INSISTED that a dr does have the right to refuse a woman IF treatment if she has kids already, not because the dr thinks it would be hazardous to her health, but for moral reasons. I HIGHLY disagree, isnt that discrimination?? Cant he be sued for something like that?? I was saying if a woman goes to the dr and he sees no medical reason why she cannot get pregnant with no risk to her health, he has no right to refuse her treatment, my colleage disagreed. She was also insisting that when a dr does an IUI or IVF there is a chance the woman might DIE and the dr is taking her and her children at home lives into his hand. I have to disagree with that one too, what chances does a woman have of DYING because of and IUI and IVF??
While I do not agree that this woman should have been persuing IF treatments with 6 kids at home (living with her parents), I will fight to the death her legal right to do so!
If insurance companies, doctors and politicians were to say that a woman CANNOT seek IF treatement because she has 6 kids, where will it stop? In a few years they will make that number 4 then 3 etc.. Then we decide that women have to prove that they have enough money to raise a kid before they go through IF treatment and so on and so on. That is why it is a slippery slope, and I totally agree with Kat, there are already too many problems with people trying to govern what a woman can do with her body.
In reality, though, aren't doctors and insurance companies technically privately funded entities in our country? Then would they not have the same rights to refuse service that many other companies do?
I do believe a doc can morally refuse treatment to a patient. He/She cannot prevent that patient from pursuing treatment elsewhere nor refuse to help that patient in the event of emergency, but if the physician believes it is not in the patient's best interest or the physician's own best interests, why should he/she not be allowed to refuse?
An insurance company is definitely a more slippery slope, but I can see reasons for both sides, that's all I'm saying. If they are supplying resources to multiple people and you have one woman with 6 children and another with none, where would the logical choice lie?