what do you make of this GP

thecuddleeffect · August 2013

http://dailycaller.com/2013/08/20/study-welfare-pays-more-than-work-in-most-states/

Your opinions always interest me

DangerMuffin23 · August 2013

Um, all those top 13 states pay more per hour than I've gotten to in my 12+ years as a working professional. I'm sad now.

amccul20 · August 2013

that is craziness!

lilliesandvino · August 2013

Um, this is a right wing website founded by top asshat Tucker Carlson. I'm not even reading it. And of I did, I'd question the validity of much of the research.

BruinsBabe33 · August 2013

Well that is exactly the problem isn't it? Why would you get a job to make less money than you are getting?

If you are used to x amount of dollars to maintain your normal spending and living expenses it is hard to take that much of a pay cut if you can only get a minimum wage job. Most people would not choose to take a pay cut to work a minimum wage job.

BeeLu · August 2013

If you go to the actual study linked, there are a few statements that I think are worth pointing out:

First and foremost: "Contrary to stereotypes, there is no evi dence that people on welfare are lazy or do not wish to work. Indeed, surveys of welfare recipients consistently show their desire for a job. At the same time, however, the evidence suggests that many are reluctant to accept available employment opportunities. ... Many welfare recipients, particularly long-term recipients, lack the skills and attachment to the job market necessary to obtain the types of jobs that pay average or above-average wages"

What this says to me is that those who are reluctant to accept employment are those who would receive the least, a pay that would leave them at or below the poverty threshhold (Fed minimum wage is $7.25/hr, a full time job then pays $15,080 pre-tax, where the poverty threshhold in the US is $11,490 for a 1-person household and $15,510 for a 2-person household).

These are the people that are not able to pull themselves out of poverty. For whatever reason, they are unable to achieve a job that would support them and potentially their family. These are the people that welfare is fundamentally for, the ones that society has failed (in lack of education, or lack of training opportunities, or sheer lack of spending power that a minimum wage job gets you), and that is why we have welfare.

I'll probably have more when/if I can get through the whole study, it's just that stuck out to me from the very beginning.

BeeLu · August 2013

lilliesandvino said:

Um, this is a right wing website founded by top asshat Tucker Carlson. I'm not even reading it. And of I did, I'd question the validity of much of the research.

The Cato Institute (researchers/publishers of the study) is a Libertarian thinktank. There's probably a bias, but it might be hard to disentangle.

Aimothy · August 2013

I'm moving to Hawaii. And getting a job on welfare.

LuckyAngel07 · August 2013

I don't have the time to read through the study and I don't know how the "income" breaks down without knowing more about Welfare, but are the hourly rates being quoted the actual cash benefits being provided to Welfare recipients, or is that the total "value" of the person's entire Welfare benefit (including whatever food and health care assistance they receive)?

That is, my pretax salary is $X. But if you add all my health care premiums, vacation/sick days, and other benefits provided by my company, my total salary value is like, 2 x $X.

DangerMuffin23 · August 2013

LuckyAngel07 said:

I don't have the time to read through the study and I don't know how the "income" breaks down without knowing more about Welfare, but are the hourly rates being quoted the actual cash benefits being provided to Welfare recipients, or is that the total "value" of the person's entire Welfare benefit (including whatever food and health care assistance they receive)?

That is, my pretax salary is $X. But if you add all my health care premiums, vacation/sick days, and other benefits provided by my company, my total salary value is like, 2 x $X.

Good point. That would def make a difference.

BeeLu · August 2013

LuckyAngel07 said:

I don't have the time to read through the study and I don't know how the "income" breaks down without knowing more about Welfare, but are the hourly rates being quoted the actual cash benefits being provided to Welfare recipients, or is that the total "value" of the person's entire Welfare benefit (including whatever food and health care assistance they receive)?

That is, my pretax salary is $X. But if you add all my health care premiums, vacation/sick days, and other benefits provided by my company, my total salary value is like, 2 x $X.

It's the total value of the entire welfare benefit, including housing benefits, food, health care assistance... it seems it's also making a lot of assumptions about the number of benefits that people actually receive. They say there are 126 welfare programs in the US, 72 of which are available to single families (the rest are community-based). They're not saying any one family can get all 72, but it's not clear how many they are assuming people are on. [Edit- Found it. They're basing it off of 7 major programs, for a single-parent two-child household.]

And they're comparing to POST-tax salaries, as an attempt to compare take-home pay. No company benefits included that I can tell.

islandmonkey8 · August 2013

$29 a hour???? I should move to Hawaii.....

skreedrake · August 2013

This made me remember that I should be working instead of nesting so that I can get caught up so that I can talk to my boss about a raise in two weeks.

spin25 · August 2013

lilliesandvino said:

Um, this is a right wing website founded by top asshat Tucker Carlson. I'm not even reading it. And of I did, I'd question the validity of much of the research.

Bwahaha at "top asshat Tucker Carlson." I actually lol'ed.

akcrrr · August 2013

I think it doesn't give an accurate comparison. You can't get laid off from McDonald's and collect $25/hr unemployment. It is a % of your former salary up to the max.

LuckyAngel07 · August 2013

akcrrr said:
I think it doesn't give an accurate comparison. You can't get laid off from McDonald's and collect $25/hr unemployment. It is a % of your former salary up to the max.

Unemployment is not the same as welfare. If it were, a lot of the recipients wouldn't even be getting minimum wage equivalents.

nfp147 · August 2013

lilliesandvino said:

Um, this is a right wing website founded by top asshat Tucker Carlson. I'm not even reading it. And of I did, I'd question the validity of much of the research.

I don't know anything about Cato, but I

you.

lilliesandvino · August 2013

Thanks @nfp147. You're not too shabby, either.

I know next to nothing about the Cato stuff, but I do know that The Daily Caller is far from unbiased or reputable.

I honestly don't care what the article says because no matter how well-researched it is or that the article says not to assume that welfare recipients are lazy, people still will use it to claim that those on welfare are bums, lazy, bad parents, junkies, etc.

Same result no matter what the facts are.

BeeLu · August 2013

lilliesandvino said:

Thanks @nfp147. You're not too shabby, either. I know next to nothing about the Cato stuff, but I do know that The Daily Caller is far from unbiased or reputable. I honestly don't care what the article says because no matter how well-researched it is or that the article says not to assume that welfare recipients are lazy, people still will use it to claim that those on welfare are bums, lazy, bad parents, junkies, etc. Same result no matter what the facts are.

The quotes I used are from the study itself, not from the article. The article is simply inflammatory, and presents information without analysis, thought, or critique, so I'm with you there.

brij2006 · August 2013

I would give more credibility to this article if it had specified that those hourly wages were including all benefits. So when you take out the health insurance, housing, etc, their actual "cash in hand" isn't as much as it's stating.

The system is available for those who need it, and unfortunately like any funding, there are people who take advantage of it.

However, I've seen where someone close to me has taken advantage of it in every possible way, and it makes me very sad for those who truly need it to survive. Her and her boyfriend got pregnant, she quit her $30k/year job immediately so she could claim zero income and get the birth paid for and stay home. They decided not to get married (they were supposed to in May) so she could still claim welfare benefits for herself and their son. He makes $50k/year, while she is on state medical card, has a food card for herself and the baby, and they live the same lifestyle we do. They have also made it clear to us that they will not get married for a while, because she will lose all of her "benefits."

At least we have our morals. You can't put a price on those.

cinderin · August 2013

brij2006 said:
I would give more credibility to this article if it had specified that those hourly wages were including all benefits. So when you take out the health insurance, housing, etc, their actual "cash in hand" isn't as much as it's stating.
The system is available for those who need it, and unfortunately like any funding, there are people who take advantage of it.
However, I've seen where someone close to me has taken advantage of it in every possible way, and it makes me very sad for those who truly need it to survive. Her and her boyfriend got pregnant, she quit her $30k/year job immediately so she could claim zero income and get the birth paid for and stay home. They decided not to get married (they were supposed to in May) so she could still claim welfare benefits for herself and their son. He makes $50k/year, while she is on state medical card, has a food card for herself and the baby, and they live the same lifestyle we do. They have also made it clear to us that they will not get married for a while, because she will lose all of her "benefits."
At least we have our morals. You can't put a price on those.

Unfortunately I know about 4 couples who do this. It is dishonest. I believe in karma, so I know being honest and hard working will pay off in the end. Even a free lunch isn't truly free,

what do you make of this GP

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