NMMR:vent-my friend is an idiot

formerlyGDaisy09 · September 2014

my friend is basically making plans to become a back-yard breeder to "get some of the money they've spent on their dog back", I've gently hinted to her that just because their dog is AKC registered with papers, does not mean that they can expect a high quality litter from her, nor that they'll get AKC register-able puppies from her. also, most breeders don't make a lot of money from the litters they breed (they make money if/when they produce high quality dogs that can compete in show rings, rally, and other AKC sponsored competions, but not from selling puppies they've bred.) We do own a dog we purchased from a breeder (after months of research and interviews to be sure we were dealing with a reputable breeder) they said their bottom-line was coming down to about $25 a puppy once they paid for vet bills(for puppies and mom), vaccinations, registration, food, etc.

Her dog is a large breed dog and is 5 years old, so middle-aged, I'm holding my tongue, but really this is a terrible idea. I can't believe my intellegent friend (she and her H are both lawyers) does not see that she is both putting her dog at risk for serious health problems and is perpetuating a cycle of back-yard breeding (low-quality breeding) that leads to both genetic defect with-in the breed and contributes to growing populations in shelters. It irresponsible and selfish, but I'm not sure it's worth losing a friendship over, so I'm trying really hard not to explode at her...wine.

vlagrl29 · September 2014

So they have a male and female dog of the same breed? I could never breed, it's a lot of work. We also got our mini schnauzer from a breeder and paid $300 for her which I thought was a deal! She was a litter of 9 and only 5 were left when I was looking. I wasn't planning on buying that day but she put on her dog charm.

formerlyGDaisy09 · September 2014

They have a female and they've found another wannabe breeder with a male.

So much work, our breeders were glad to see all their puppies go so they could get a break! Our breeder had homes lined up for puppies before she even did the breeding (this is one of the AKC's markers of a responsible breeder), she had more people who wanted puppies than puppies, but was making sure that she had good homes line-up before she went forward with the breeding. It seemed to me that even the work of finding those good homes for the dogs took a lot of work!

They had so much documentation on both the bitch and the stud for this litter, x-rays, hearing tests, genetic screenings, 8-12 generations of breeding history. They had written-up a justifcation for the breeding and why breeding this particular stud and bitch was for the betterment of the breed, you could just tell there was a lot of thought and planning that went into it, beyond puppies are cute and I can sell them for money.

I have ZERO probelm with people getting puppies from reputable breeders, but I do have a probelm with people not understanding the ripple effect that back-yard breeders have.

brij2006 · September 2014

This makes me stabby.

My FIL and SMIL just did this with their AKC registered male, and they "rescued" an AKC registered female from a family who didn't want to spend the time with her. They got her in January, she had a litter in June, and they just got rid of her last week because they "couldn't train her."

Thankfully they finally got it through their heads that they could NOT make money off these puppies, nor advertise them as AKC registered.

We bit our tongues for a while with this, then ended up sending them a link to what it takes to become an AKC breeder and what all it entails in order to advertise your puppies in that way. They ended up selling the puppies for just what it cost them in shots.

It's really hard to not say something, and I would just send her the information about what AKC really means and how difficult it is to be.

Erikan73 · September 2014

My husband rescued his dogs from his ex-wife that was doing this to her dogs. When he got them the female was already pregenant. That litter they had a decent experience getting rid of the dogs. The second litter (and last) he ended up giving them away for free because he wasn't getting any interest in the dogs. Granted they weren't AKC certififed, but they were still cute dogs. Shortly after that we took the dogs to get fixed to prevent any more litters. The vet told my husband that one more litter WOULD have killed the female because her internal organs for delivery puppies where shot. Not may have, but WOULD have killed her.

My recommendation is if you still have the phone number from your breeder, call them and see if they would be ok with you giving your friend their number. This way she can find out from an experienced breeder the ins and outs of breeding. She may be more likely to take advice from someone who is already in the position they want to be in.

formerlyGDaisy09 · September 2014

I'm not sure my breeder would be willing to do that, but maybe. I know her puppy came from a back-yard breeder, so that's no help (she brought her puppy home with Parvo because the breeder didn't know any better).

I've explained to her a few times that just because her dog has papers does not mean that she is breeding quality, nor does it mean that she meets AKC standards. Our dog is registered with papers, but she does not meet the AKC standard for the breed...that is why she went to a pet home with a spay-contract. the two of us have talked about that, but maybe it was too subtle.

brij2006 · September 2014

Tell her to look at her AKC papers and see if it is marked that her dog can not be bred. Granted, a backyard breeder usually doesn't care and doesn't mark no. A true breeder would have marked no and those blood lines can not be continued.

hoffse · September 2014

That really bothers me too, but I'm not sure what you can do about it.

My aunt is a professional dog breeder, but she shows and wins for her clients. She has a legit/high stakes business going but that's definitely not the norm for breeding, and she grew up in the business (my grandmother used to show the same breed). I think most above-board breeders who don't show really do it just because they love it, not because they're going to have any financial success with it. It's more of a hobby for them and less of a true business.

For me the biggest issue is what it does to shelters. All it does is create yet more pets who have no homes or who may be abandoned when the people who buy them don't get exactly what they are expecting out of them.

I don't understand why people want to "recoup costs" of pet ownership. Seriously. It's a bit like having a child - you're never going to get the money you spent on having a kid recouped, but the joy and love from that relationship means that it shouldn't matter one bit. And if you do care about costs with pets or you're on a budget, do what we did and get your pet from a shelter when they are literally giving them away. Our cat came spayed, microchipped, and with her shots all up to date, and we paid $0 for her.

Xstatic3333 · September 2014

That's extremely frustrating. I always got the idea that reputable breeders do what they do as a labor of love for their breed and/or sport (if they show), not as a way to make money. I think you would be within your rights to kindly urge her to consider the health risks to her dog, as well as the fact that she won't make much back. If anything, I'd be she'll lose money with the vet bills, even if all goes well.

I'm not at all against reputable breeders either; we're still considering one for our dog. But breeding on purpose but with no clue what you're doing makes me so stabby. It's bad for the rescue industry and bad for reputable breeders, as well as bad for all of the dogs involved! We got my childhood pup from a backyard breeder before we knew better, and I loved her to death but she had SO many health problems compared to our second dog, who came from a reputable breeder with a spay-contract because she wasn't up to breed standard (over something silly like a tooth out of place).

I hope your friend will do some research and reconsider.

:-<

formerlyGDaisy09 · September 2014

...this particular friend is stubborn and is going to come up with some justification for whatever she wants to do. So my reaction to this may be limited to information sharing, private head shaking, and post conversation wine drinking.

@hoffse agreed on all points. Our beeders absolutely were in this for the love of the breed, the co-own all of their dogs that go on to compete in the show-ring, and take responsibility for all dogs they breed, meaning that if any of their owners were to find themselves in a place where they can no longer care for their dog the breeder will take the dog back.

We also got our cats from a shelter at a point when they had more cats than they could handle. for now, our pets are our children (and they're spoiled rotten), by the time we have kids I imagine I'll have spoiled the animals to a point where they won't need anything else (seriously I just bought the dog a back-pack and a life-vest so she can go hiking, camping, swimming, kayaking, etc. this winter she's getting ski-jioring equipment for Christmas.

formerlyGDaisy09 · September 2014

Xstatic3333 said:

That's extremely frustrating. I always got the idea that reputable breeders do what they do as a labor of love for their breed and/or sport (if they show), not as a way to make money. I think you would be within your rights to kindly urge her to consider the health risks to her dog, as well as the fact that she won't make much back. If anything, I'd be she'll lose money with the vet bills, even if all goes well.

I'm not at all against reputable breeders either; we're still considering one for our dog. But breeding on purpose but with no clue what you're doing makes me so stabby. It's bad for the rescue industry and bad for reputable breeders, as well as bad for all of the dogs involved! We got my childhood pup from a backyard breeder before we knew better, and I loved her to death but she had SO many health problems compared to our second dog, who came from a reputable breeder with a spay-contract because she wasn't up to breed standard (over something silly like a tooth out of place).

I hope your friend will do some research and reconsider.
:-<

Ours (a dalmatian) was a pet-dog and came with a spay-contract because she was born with a patched-ear, actually something that indicates strong hearing and good eye-sight (often flaws of the breed), however is still a disqualifyer from the show-ring (photo below...she's such a ham

)

I hope she'll so research too...she usually does research but biased to whatever she wants to do.

Xstatic3333 · September 2014

Gdaisy09 said:

Xstatic3333 said:

That's extremely frustrating. I always got the idea that reputable breeders do what they do as a labor of love for their breed and/or sport (if they show), not as a way to make money. I think you would be within your rights to kindly urge her to consider the health risks to her dog, as well as the fact that she won't make much back. If anything, I'd be she'll lose money with the vet bills, even if all goes well.

I'm not at all against reputable breeders either; we're still considering one for our dog. But breeding on purpose but with no clue what you're doing makes me so stabby. It's bad for the rescue industry and bad for reputable breeders, as well as bad for all of the dogs involved! We got my childhood pup from a backyard breeder before we knew better, and I loved her to death but she had SO many health problems compared to our second dog, who came from a reputable breeder with a spay-contract because she wasn't up to breed standard (over something silly like a tooth out of place).

I hope your friend will do some research and reconsider.
:-<

Ours (a dalmatian) was a pet-dog and came with a spay-contract because she was born with a patched-ear, actually something that indicates strong hearing and good eye-sight (often flaws of the breed), however is still a disqualifyer from the show-ring (photo below...she's such a ham )
I hope she'll so research too...she usually does research but biased to whatever she wants to do.

OH my goodness...that FACE! She is absolutely adorable. Cue my puppy crazy pangs (by 29 shouldn't I be on to baby craziness?)

formerlyGDaisy09 · September 2014

Xstatic3333 said:

Gdaisy09 said:

Xstatic3333 said:

That's extremely frustrating. I always got the idea that reputable breeders do what they do as a labor of love for their breed and/or sport (if they show), not as a way to make money. I think you would be within your rights to kindly urge her to consider the health risks to her dog, as well as the fact that she won't make much back. If anything, I'd be she'll lose money with the vet bills, even if all goes well.

I'm not at all against reputable breeders either; we're still considering one for our dog. But breeding on purpose but with no clue what you're doing makes me so stabby. It's bad for the rescue industry and bad for reputable breeders, as well as bad for all of the dogs involved! We got my childhood pup from a backyard breeder before we knew better, and I loved her to death but she had SO many health problems compared to our second dog, who came from a reputable breeder with a spay-contract because she wasn't up to breed standard (over something silly like a tooth out of place).

I hope your friend will do some research and reconsider.
:-<

Ours (a dalmatian) was a pet-dog and came with a spay-contract because she was born with a patched-ear, actually something that indicates strong hearing and good eye-sight (often flaws of the breed), however is still a disqualifyer from the show-ring (photo below...she's such a ham )
I hope she'll so research too...she usually does research but biased to whatever she wants to do.

OH my goodness...that FACE! She is absolutely adorable. Cue my puppy crazy pangs (by 29 shouldn't I be on to baby craziness?)

Her face gets me everytime, and she knows it

I don't think puppy crazy pangs and baby craziness are exclusive

here's another favorite:

vlagrl29 · September 2014

hoffse said:

That really bothers me too, but I'm not sure what you can do about it.

My aunt is a professional dog breeder, but she shows and wins for her clients. She has a legit/high stakes business going but that's definitely not the norm for breeding, and she grew up in the business (my grandmother used to show the same breed). I think most above-board breeders who don't show really do it just because they love it, not because they're going to have any financial success with it. It's more of a hobby for them and less of a true business.

For me the biggest issue is what it does to shelters. All it does is create yet more pets who have no homes or who may be abandoned when the people who buy them don't get exactly what they are expecting out of them.

I don't understand why people want to "recoup costs" of pet ownership. Seriously. It's a bit like having a child - you're never going to get the money you spent on having a kid recouped, but the joy and love from that relationship means that it shouldn't matter one bit. And if you do care about costs with pets or you're on a budget, do what we did and get your pet from a shelter when they are literally giving them away. Our cat came spayed, microchipped, and with her shots all up to date, and we paid $0 for her.

I don't get this either. Was the dog 1k or more to buy? So weird. especially with them being lawyers

emily1004 · September 2014

Yeah, they're idiots.

(Just because someone is a lawyer doesn't make them smart, I know a lot of stupid lawyers).

marchbaby · September 2014

Ugh, I work at a vet hospital and have heard this several times. We usually remind the owners that the vet care for the mom and babies are expensive. And if something goes wrong (ie the dog needs a csection etc) that will be even more expensive. There is also the risk of losing the mom if something goes wrong.

If that doesn't work maybe suggest they take a trip to a local animal shelter and see all the dogs that are going to be put to sleep while she brings more dogs into the world...

short+sassy · September 2014

marchbaby said:

Ugh, I work at a vet hospital and have heard this several times. We usually remind the owners that the vet care for the mom and babies are expensive. And if something goes wrong (ie the dog needs a csection etc) that will be even more expensive. There is also the risk of losing the mom if something goes wrong.

If that doesn't work maybe suggest they take a trip to a local animal shelter and see all the dogs that are going to be put to sleep while she brings more dogs into the world...

STUCK IN BOX

Yeah, I was watching a People's Court where the case was something about the stud dog owners suing because they didn't get moeny or first of litter. With the defendant's excuse being their dog needed a c-section, so they ended up not making any money. I mean, yeah, they sold a couple puppies for about $600/each...but their vet bill was in the thousands. And landed in court!

NMMR:vent-my friend is an idiot

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