Not MM: Istanbul?

short+sassy · February 2016

My H and I are currently trying to plan our European trip. I've never been and have been having a hard time deciding on locations to go. But right now we are strongly leaning toward a trip to either (Rome, Athens, Istanbul) or (Rome, Istanbul). I know from other threads there are good things said about Rome, so I feel pretty solid about going there. But has anyone been to Istanbul? It looks fascinating and that is the city my H as been the most excited about.

We're also not sure about keeping Athens on the itinerary. I'm sure it would be an awesome place to go, but he prefers to spend more time in the two cities than less time in three. Especially since there would be travel time between them. Right now, I'm looking at a package that is 3 nights in each. I'm a little more inclined to add one extra night in Rome and Istanbul and just take a longer vacation.

As it stands right now, the 9 night package to the three cities is about $1700/person, which includes hotels (breakfast provided at all), and all airfare...r/t airfare to the continent plus airfare between cities.

And then here is another option. We could also fly out of Chicago or NYC for about a $1400/person package (same package). The r/t trip airfare to Chicago is $120-$150 and to NYC it is $200-$250. I'm thinking, on the front end, we could stay a couple days in Chicago and fly out of there. I've been there...though it's been almost 20 years...but my H has not. It would almost be like a "free" trip to Chicago since the $300/person savings would pay for the airfare there and a good bit of a couple hotel nights.

But then, is that taking on too much to chew? Would it be overwhelming? It would also involve more coordination on the flights and I could see that being especially awful on the return trip when I'm sure we would just want to go straight back home, but would first have to fly back to Chicago.

I know that's a lot of info to take in! But this international travel newbie would appreciate any/all advice.

hoffse · February 2016

I would do almost anything to go to Istanbul. It looks amazing.

As for timing, I figure we would need a minimum of 3 days just for the Sultanhamet (sp?) district. You have the Hagia Sophia, Blue Mosque, the underground cistern, the Topkapi palace with the harem, the Chora Church, the spice market, the Grand Bazaar.... and you haven't even left those couple square miles of Istanbul. The Topkapi palace is supposed to be enormous. And Europe is weird in that most places there are really small, but the big places are BIG and much bigger than you would ever find in the US. It's hard for Americans to understand exactly how massive some of these buildings can be, and then you way underestimate how much time it takes to see them.

For Rome, you need an absolute minimum of 3 days. 4 is better. The Vatican takes a day assuming you go into the museum - and if you have to go into the museum if you want to see the Sistine Chapel, because it's at the very end. I suppose you could race through the rest of it, but it's one of the best art collections in the world. If you only pick one art museum to visit, it should be that one or the Borghese Gallery. The Forum, Colosseum, and Palatine Hill also take most of a full day to see. And you need at least one day to wander around and see just a little bit of all the other amazing stuff that's there. Some of the very best stuff in Rome is inside the churches, and it's all free. I can give you a list of my favorites. I've visited over 40 major churches in Europe, and it's probably no surprise that Rome has some of the best.

If you want to see Pompeii or Herculaneum, that's an additional full day.

So you probably need a minimum of 6 full days on the ground to see both Rome and Istanbul. 7 days if you want a day trip from Rome. When you include your transit days, that's probably all I would do. I haven't been to Athens, but my H has been there and says it's terrible. He says it's good for a 1-day cruise stop and not much else. I'm sure many would disagree with him about it, but he hated it, and he's somebody who LOVES ancient ruins.

The other thing I would keep in mind is that the airports for both Rome and Istanbul are outside of the city. It's not like Amsterdam where you're a 15 minute tram ride in. It will probably take you an hour to get from the airport to the city center (and vice versa), so that's going to kill some serious time on your transit day. I don't think I would add a third stop that requires a flight.

If you decide to go to Istanbul, also price out Atlanta for a departure city. There's a direct flight opening between ATL and Istanbul in May that right now is under $900/person RT. It's going to be a daily flight. It's so cheap that H and I have talked about doing a whirlwind long weekend trip to Istanbul and just not sleeping.

Finally, I suggest looking really hard at where the hotels are located for these packages. Very often the vacation packages are so cheap because they stick you in a hotel that's far out. Trust me, you do NOT want to waste valuable vacation time commuting in and out each day. It's worth paying a little more to be near convenient public transit and/or walking distance to some of the major tourist attractions.

labro · February 2016

My only thoughts on Istanbul are that I'm not sure if it's the kind of place I would want to visit right now. I understand most of the tourist areas there are pretty safe and I'm not 100% up to date on all the latest travel alerts...but it makes me nervous. Istanbul is a place I would LOVE to visit someday, but as a safety factor? I'm not sure I would want to go right now. The US Consulate has a lot of helpful travel info though so I'll leave it to you to make your own decision.

9 nights and 3 cities is do-able but I think it would be overwhelming considering how much each of those three cities on their own has to offer. I'd seriously consider narrowing it down to two so you can focus more on what each has to offer rather than feel rushed or potentially miss out on getting to see something you really really want to see. H and I spent our honeymoon in Munich and pretty much left most of our trip there open because I wanted the freedom of spending more time in one spot if we found something really fascinating versus having a hard schedule and feeling forced to keep moving if we didn't want to.

I think it would be fun to add on a short "pre-trip" to Chicago if you can swing it (plus it sounds like you'll save money right?). You can easily find ways to fill your time there without it being overwhelming.

maple2 · February 2016

DH and I went to Istanbul a year and a half ago. It wasn't a place that was on my travel list, but DH had a conference there so we figured we should take advantage of the opportunity. It was an amazing experience, and I would highly recommend visiting there. Walking along stone floors in Haiga Sophia that had literally been worn down by 1,500 years of human footsteps was profoundly moving even for a non-history buff like myself. The old city is full of beautiful mosques, museums and markets that could easily take 3 days to explore. I spent a couple of days exploring on foot, walking from Taksim Square to the area around Sultanahmet and it was fascinating to see the differences between the modern and historical parts of town. We also took a cooking class with a local Istanbulite and her British partner. They took us through a few markets to buy supplies, and it was fun to get a less touristy feel for those areas. And to have someone translate what all the interesting foods were. We then went to their apartment on the Asian side of Istanbul and spent the rest of the day cooking 15+ Turkish dishes. Honestly, it was a bit too much cooking, but we really enjoyed getting to see what daily life was like was for those folks, hearing their perspectives on modern Turkish life, and getting suggestions on what to do with the rest of our time. We've also made Turkish feasts a few times for friends at home, so we did learning something about cooking.

In summary, Istanbul was amazing, and there are so many different things to do there that you should have no trouble filling your time. I personally would only visit Rome and Istanbul, but that's because I prefer to spend more time in fewer places. Plenty of other people enjoy whirlwind tours, but that's just not my style.

short+sassy · February 2016

Thanks for the feedback, all!

@labro, I did look at the safety factor for Istanbul. The general consensus I got is, although it has been more pro-American in previous years than now, is it's still about as safe a city as any big city. There is more caution if someone is traveling more to the Eastern side of Turkey.

@maple2 and @hoffse, you both put me on my H's side of cutting out Athens. I suspect that will save money also, even keeping the number of days the same. I'll also try pricing out flying out of Atlanta.

@hoffse, good point about hotel locations! I noticed that with the hotels the website (Trip Masters) first put in the package. They were three star hotels (out of 5) and didn't sound quite as close as some of the others. But for a fairly small upcharge in each city, I picked one hotel that is a few minutes walk from the Grand Bazaar and Blue Mosque in Istanbul and one hotel in Rome that is a few minutes walk from the Trevi Fountain. There is a lot I want to see in Rome but, don't ask me why, the Trevi Fountain is what I want to see the most, lol. At any rate, both hotels I picked had good reviews...especially in regards to location...and each had 4/5 stars.

@maple2, I'm with you. My H and I more enjoy leisurely walking around. Seeing the sights, but also soaking in the every day culture. I saw one tour advertised that went to 6 European cities in 10 days. Ugh. Not that I wouldn't want to go to all those cities someday. But I feel like that would be a "checklist" rather than a real experience.

hoffse · February 2016

The Trevi Fountain area is great. It should put you pretty close to the Barberini metro stop, and it's a very nice area. The US embassy is actually right there, so that tells you how nice it is.

The public transport situation in Rome is kind of sticky because the metro basically makes a loop around the old city. They can't do a line through the middle because there's too much stuff underground that they would have to excavate. So if you can be within a 10-15 min walk to the Piazza Navona/Campo de Fiori area, but near one of the (few) metro stops, that's ideal. The Spanish steps, the Vatican, the Colosseum, and the train station are all on different ends of the city. It kind of makes a diamond shape. You are in for a ton of walking unless you can ride the metro around the periphery of it.

Make sure to bring a coin with you to the Trevi Fountain! You have to throw it over your shoulder backwards. If it makes it into the fountain, it means you will come back to Rome someday. It must work, because I did that in 2008, and H and I are taking my parents there this summer

maple2 · February 2016

Have you thought about just booking the various parts of your trip yourself rather than going through an agency? The first few days of our trip we had to stay in the conference hotel, but we had no trouble using a guide book and Trip Advisor to find hotels, activities and transportation for everything else. It may be more time consuming, but it may also save some money.

Also, if you have any specific questions, I'm happy to answer. We had several days there between the conference and exploring together, so I was able to visit most of the sites that come up in guidebooks. We ended up finding the museum pass to be a good deal since we went so many places (http://www.muzekart.com/en/museum-pass/about_27.html).

short+sassy · February 2016

Oh yeah!! I just re-priced my itinerary...for 5 nights in Rome and 5 nights in Istanbul, cutting out Greece and adding one night to the trip...it comes out about $50/person cheaper. I also tried 4 nights each, but it wasn't that much cheaper than 5 and did weird stuff with the flight from Rome to Istanbul, but that is something I might be able to play with.

Since I have a lot of flexibility in when we go, I'm going to call the travel agency and see if we can save more money by flying out on certain date/date range. Though I want to be careful to not go when it would be either too hot or too cold.

hoffse · February 2016

Oh and the Scavi tour at the Vatican.... you gotta do that. I didn't get it together in time to do it last time, but I got us tickets for our visit in June. Everybody says it's the coolest thing you can do in Rome. They take you underground on a tour of the necropolis that's underneath the Vatican. They take you to the tomb of St. Peter. They only let 12 people into each tour group, so reservations book out way early. I reserved 6 months out but managed to get a time slot for all 4 of us. Don't go on a Wednesday though because that's when Francis does the papal audience if he's in town, and Vatican city gets mobbed.

short+sassy · February 2016

maple2 said:

Have you thought about just booking the various parts of your trip yourself rather than going through an agency? The first few days of our trip we had to stay in the conference hotel, but we had no trouble using a guide book and Trip Advisor to find hotels, activities and transportation for everything else. It may be more time consuming, but it may also save some money.

Also, if you have any specific questions, I'm happy to answer. We had several days there between the conference and exploring together, so I was able to visit most of the sites that come up in guidebooks. We ended up finding the museum pass to be a good deal since we went so many places (http://www.muzekart.com/en/museum-pass/about_27.html).

I had thought about that and will do my own checking to see if I can book things myself cheaper, but I feel like the prices I'm pulling up are much cheaper than what I would expect anyway.

short+sassy · February 2016

hoffse said:

Oh and the Scavi tour at the Vatican.... you gotta do that. I didn't get it together in time to do it last time, but I got us tickets for our visit in June. Everybody says it's the coolest thing you can do in Rome. They take you underground on a tour of the necropolis that's underneath the Vatican. They take you to the tomb of St. Peter. They only let 12 people into each tour group, so reservations book out way early. I reserved 6 months out but managed to get a time slot for all 4 of us. Don't go on a Wednesday though because that's when Francis does the papal audience if he's in town, and Vatican city gets mobbed.

Thanks for the Scavi tour recommendation and when NOT to go to the Vatican, lol.

I mentioned to my H that, if we go to the Vatican, we need to check their schedule and make sure it is NOT a day when Pope Francis is giving a speech to the crowds. That is too claustrophobic for me.

He is a little torn about the Vatican. Neither of us are Catholic and he is an atheist, but we both recognize and (I think) would enjoy the historical richness of it. But he knows he sometimes suffers from "foot in mouth" disease and might have to bite his tongue a lot. Do they make muzzles for people? lol.

als1982 · February 2016

short+sassy said:

hoffse said:

Oh and the Scavi tour at the Vatican.... you gotta do that. I didn't get it together in time to do it last time, but I got us tickets for our visit in June. Everybody says it's the coolest thing you can do in Rome. They take you underground on a tour of the necropolis that's underneath the Vatican. They take you to the tomb of St. Peter. They only let 12 people into each tour group, so reservations book out way early. I reserved 6 months out but managed to get a time slot for all 4 of us. Don't go on a Wednesday though because that's when Francis does the papal audience if he's in town, and Vatican city gets mobbed.

Thanks for the Scavi tour recommendation and when NOT to go to the Vatican, lol.
I mentioned to my H that, if we go to the Vatican, we need to check their schedule and make sure it is NOT a day when Pope Francis is giving a speech to the crowds. That is too claustrophobic for me.
He is a little torn about the Vatican. Neither of us are Catholic and he is an atheist, but we both recognize and (I think) would enjoy the historical richness of it. But he knows he sometimes suffers from "foot in mouth" disease and might have to bite his tongue a lot. Do they make muzzles for people? lol.

Playing devils advocate here, but I personally much preferred Athens over Rome. What is it that has you leaning in the direction of Rome, especially considering the above? Personally, I wouldn't cut out Greece, but would allocate three days - two for Athens and then a third for a day cruise to visit some of the outlying islands.

short+sassy · February 2016

@als1982, Rome just appeals to both my H and I more than Athens. I'm not even sure I could tell you why, it just does. And just in the general getting opinions from people who have been both places, Rome seems to be preferred over Athens also.

With all that said, I'm sure I would really like Athens also. While no one can predict weather, I always picture it in my mind as being sunny and almost glowing white. I haven't totally knocked it off the table. My other option would be to add an extra day to both Rome and Istanbul and still keep Athens. But that would add some expense. Plus my H's preference is to focus on two cities, with Istanbul definitely being one of them, but he is also okay with all three if the travel timings are optimized.

I'm just glad I've narrowed it down this much, lol. Last week it was "maybe Rome and the Amalfi coast" or "maybe Munich/Prague/Budapest" or "maybe Rome and Madrid". I was all over the place.

smetter04 · February 2016

I stayed in Istanbul for 5 days with a friend back on 2009, and it was amazing! It was never on my list of places to go but I'm so glad I went, I definitely recommend it! Although, I'm also not sure this is a great time to go due to safety concerns, not necessarily in the city itself but just due to the general area of the world it's in.

I recommend all the main sites that PP's have mentioned, but I also recommend taking a ferry to the Asia side of the city. The buildings and layout are more modern, so it's cool to compare it to the ancient city. Also, it's totally worth it to go to the top of the Galata tower. You can walk all the way around the tower and the view is amazing. My friend and I spent a lot of time up there just looking, thinking and contemplating the world and life.

My friend and I were two women traveling without a man, so sometimes we felt intimidated and somewhat unsafe, mostly because their style of selling items on the street is quite aggressive. But we wandered and got lost and didn't feel unsafe, including wandering outside of the normal tourist area. I'd also recommend doing this, as it was a fascinating peek into how people really live.

Speaking of getting lost, it's very easy to get lost in Istanbul. Few streets have clearly-marked signs. It was difficult to find a decent map, so I'd suggest finding a good map before you go.

short+sassy · February 2016

smetter04 said:

I stayed in Istanbul for 5 days with a friend back on 2009, and it was amazing! It was never on my list of places to go but I'm so glad I went, I definitely recommend it! Although, I'm also not sure this is a great time to go due to safety concerns, not necessarily in the city itself but just due to the general area of the world it's in.

I recommend all the main sites that PP's have mentioned, but I also recommend taking a ferry to the Asia side of the city. The buildings and layout are more modern, so it's cool to compare it to the ancient city. Also, it's totally worth it to go to the top of the Galata tower. You can walk all the way around the tower and the view is amazing. My friend and I spent a lot of time up there just looking, thinking and contemplating the world and life.

My friend and I were two women traveling without a man, so sometimes we felt intimidated and somewhat unsafe, mostly because their style of selling items on the street is quite aggressive. But we wandered and got lost and didn't feel unsafe, including wandering outside of the normal tourist area. I'd also recommend doing this, as it was a fascinating peek into how people really live.

Speaking of getting lost, it's very easy to get lost in Istanbul. Few streets have clearly-marked signs. It was difficult to find a decent map, so I'd suggest finding a good map before you go.

Thanks for the recommendations! I do like to get off the beaten path also.

First bolded: I've heard that about some areas of the world. But then, Tijuana is like that...maybe not to as great an extent...and I've been there dozens of times (though not recently). While I don't want to underestimate it, I'm a pretty assertive person myself and also have a strong ability to just completely ignore anyone who is bugging me. That is usually the best way to handle beggars...whether they are begging for money or to buy something.

Second bolded: Awesome! I will feel right at home then (sarcasm). NOLA has an annoying habit of doing that also. But seriously, I realize getting lost is much more scary in a foreign country where I won't speak the language. That's a great tip to get a map ahead of time! Thanks.

hoffse · February 2016

short+sassy said:

hoffse said:

Oh and the Scavi tour at the Vatican.... you gotta do that. I didn't get it together in time to do it last time, but I got us tickets for our visit in June. Everybody says it's the coolest thing you can do in Rome. They take you underground on a tour of the necropolis that's underneath the Vatican. They take you to the tomb of St. Peter. They only let 12 people into each tour group, so reservations book out way early. I reserved 6 months out but managed to get a time slot for all 4 of us. Don't go on a Wednesday though because that's when Francis does the papal audience if he's in town, and Vatican city gets mobbed.

Thanks for the Scavi tour recommendation and when NOT to go to the Vatican, lol.
I mentioned to my H that, if we go to the Vatican, we need to check their schedule and make sure it is NOT a day when Pope Francis is giving a speech to the crowds. That is too claustrophobic for me.
He is a little torn about the Vatican. Neither of us are Catholic and he is an atheist, but we both recognize and (I think) would enjoy the historical richness of it. But he knows he sometimes suffers from "foot in mouth" disease and might have to bite his tongue a lot. Do they make muzzles for people? lol.

H and I are Catholic, but we barely practice. We go twice a year. I don't think you have to be Catholic or even Christian to appreciate it. Like you said, the Vatican is historically significant, and Rome has been the center of Catholicism for centuries. That's part of the history of the city, regardless of what you personally believe.

H and I don't seek out churches on our travels because we are religious. We do it because I'm an art buff, and he's an architecture buff, and European churches tend to have both (Roman ones in particular). Some of these buildings are hard to imagine, and we are always amazed that humans built them without modern technology.

St. P's is the largest church in the world. They still don't know how the dome stays up, because it should have collapsed in on itself centuries ago. In fact, it did collapse a few times before Michelangelo figured out how to vault the one that's currently there. So as you approach it you see a dome vaulted by Michelangelo. Then you get into a square designed and built by Bernini. There's an ancient Egyptian obelisk in the middle of the square. Then you go inside the church and can see Michelangelo's Pieta. The Vatican museums will show you one of the best collections of Greek and Roman art in the world (none of which is Christian). After going through a huge museum - which is housed in the old Vatican palaces - you get to the antechamber of the Sistine Chapel with some of Rapheal's most famous work featuring Socrates and Plato. The Sistine Chapel is Michelangelo's masterpiece. It would be a shame to skip it.

It's huge. It's opulent. Obviously there is a lot of Christian art and imagery there, but some of the most famous stuff is not Christian.

I don't think you have to believe any of it to appreciate the sheer amount of awesome human creation that exists in that one place. I could see it being weird for some people if only because they might feel like outsiders in a place that's very holy to many visitors. But I can assure you that even with the dozens of nuns and cardinals you're likely to see, most of the people there are tourists (even a lot of the nuns and cardinals are tourists)! Nobody cares if you are Catholic or not, just as long as you respect those few who have come for a pilgrimage. Most Catholics aren't out to convert anybody

And hey, if you swing by and decide it's not for you, you are a 10 minute walk back to the main part of the city. There's certainly no reason you have to stay if you guys don't like it.

hoffse · February 2016

Also, the whole city is very odd to me in that you have all this amazing ancient stuff paired with all this really significant Christian stuff. Most of the floors in the churches are Cosmati. That means they took ancient Roman pillars and sliced them up and installed them as mosaics for the floors. There's just no other place like it in the world.

I do think that skipping the Vatican entirely on your first trip there is sort of like skipping the Blue Mosque in Istanbul.

I know a lady who visited Turkey a couple years ago, and she was super upset that the call to prayer woke her up every morning, and that she couldn't find a Christian tour guide in Ephesus to give her the "Christian perspective." I am still baffled by this. Turkey is over 95% Muslim, so of course you're going to hear a call to prayer each morning, and of course your tour guide is probably not Christian. I have no idea why she even went, given her expectations.. As a tourist, you can't expect a destination that's in another country to conform with your world viewpoint. But that's the best part about traveling IMO.

short+sassy · February 2016

hoffse said:

Also, the whole city is very odd to me in that you have all this amazing ancient stuff paired with all this really significant Christian stuff. Most of the floors in the churches are Cosmati. That means they took ancient Roman pillars and sliced them up and installed them as mosaics for the floors. There's just no other place like it in the world.

I do think that skipping the Vatican entirely on your first trip there is sort of like skipping the Blue Mosque in Istanbul.

I know a lady who visited Turkey a couple years ago, and she was super upset that the call to prayer woke her up every morning, and that she couldn't find a Christian tour guide in Ephesus to give her the "Christian perspective." I am still baffled by this. Turkey is over 95% Muslim, so of course you're going to hear a call to prayer each morning, and of course your tour guide is probably not Christian. I have no idea why she even went, given her expectations.. As a tourist, you can't expect a destination that's in another country to conform with your world viewpoint. But that's the best part about traveling IMO.

I agree. And I think we will both really enjoy it and be awed and astounded by it. He's already mostly on board.

The Blue Mosque is a good comparison. He'll need to keep his atheist views to himself there also. I don't mean that in a "denying his beliefs" kind of way, just in a "don't actively start talking about that God doesn't exist" kind of way. Especially in sacred places of worship. He would never do that to be disrespectful, but he is just a gregarious person and is always striking up conversations with people around him. I could see the potential, being in a religious place, for religion to come up and the next thing I know he is having a pleasant...but IMO inappropriate for the place...philosophical discussion with some stranger as to why he does not believe in God.

Totally agree with the second bolded also. The world is so big and with so many cultures.

JoanE2012 · February 2016

Ahhh,, the talk of Istanbul had me look up long weekend packages - only around $1100/person! So tempting! I don't think I could though - as much as I love traveling, I don't feel comfortable going there right now. I know it's silly - I was in Paris two months before the attacks last year and the chances of anything happening are so slim - but still. It looks amazing though! Who knows.

hoffse · February 2016

short+sassy said:

I agree. And I think we will both really enjoy it and be awed and astounded by it. He's already mostly on board.
The Blue Mosque is a good comparison. He'll need to keep his atheist views to himself there also. I don't mean that in a "denying his beliefs" kind of way, just in a "don't actively start talking about that God doesn't exist" kind of way. Especially in sacred places of worship. He would never do that to be disrespectful, but he is just a gregarious person and is always striking up conversations with people around him. I could see the potential, being in a religious place, for religion to come up and the next thing I know he is having a pleasant...but IMO inappropriate for the place...philosophical discussion with some stranger as to why he does not believe in God.
Totally agree with the second bolded also. The world is so big and with so many cultures.

I get what you're saying completely.

He might be surprised if he happens to strike up a conversation with somebody who has taken orders and is stationed in Rome. Most of the people who make it there professionally do so because they're really well-versed and thoughtful. We're actually about to lose one of our best priests in B'ham because they are moving him to Rome. Anyway, they are all used to talking about that sort of thing with people who doubt, or struggle, or just don't believe anything at all. I really don't think that most of them would be offended by it at all, as long as he's willing to engage their viewpoint as well. They talk about the existence or absence of God all day long. It's their job!

If you guys want to avoid the more conservative believers, one way of identifying them is if the women are wearing veils to cover their hair. I rarely see hats or veils in the US anymore, but it's still a prevalent tradition among some eastern European Catholics or very conservative Catholics. For these people Rome is likely to be a place of pilgrimage, rather than a sight-seeing destination.

That said, going to the Scala Sancta is quite interesting, just to see what the "true believers" do there. These are the stairs that Christ (supposedly) walked up when he was crucified. There are people that come to Rome from all over the world to climb these stairs on their knees (absolutely nobody walks on them). You can go inside and watch. I admit that I'm pretty skeptical about the origin of these stairs, and I did not climb them myself, but I still found it moving and interesting to watch for a few minutes.

Not MM: Istanbul?

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