Septic, Well, Propane

MommyLiberty5013 · March 2016

DH and I are listing our home this week! Our goal is to move to a more rural location. He grew up on an Iowa farm raising corn, soy beans, and pigs. I grew up in suburbia. I want to be educated and informed on things that come with owning property in rural places...septic, well, and propane.

For any of you that currently have these or have had them in the past, are there any tips or pointers you have to share? Things to watch out for? Are there inspectors that test these components? What are some annual costs you see with maintenance and up-keep (I know the cost of propane varies from location to location, so are there any others costs with the tanks or lines themselves?)

julieanne912 · March 2016

We have septic and I'm pretty well versed on wells too. Not as much propane, other than it can end up being very pricey if the home is not insulated well. My friend moved into a mountain home that was a foreclosure, and their first propane bill was over $1,000 due to the poor insulation. Just something to keep in mind. H was very very against a home with propane so we ruled any land out that only had propane as an option.

Here in CO, if you buy a home with a septic system, the seller has to provide a "septic use permit". To get that, you have to have the system pumped, then inspected, and then pay a fee and submit to the county to get the permit. IF there are any repairs that are called out in the inspection, they have to be completed prior to issuing the permit. No idea what the rules are where you are, but you can definitely get it inspected.

For septic upkeep, we have only been in for a year, and so far there have been no costs involved with it. You have to have it pumped every few years, but that depends on the size of your tanks and how many people are using it. We will probably have to do it every 3-5 years, whereas our neighbors next door with 4 kids will need to do it more often. The sellers of the property can probably give you a good idea. A pumping is a few hundred dollars, at least around here, so it's not a crazy cost.

Same with the well, you can have both the components/mechanicals tested, and also the water quality. Any reputable well company should be able to do that for you for a fee. The only cost of running it is the electricity for the pump. Also keep in mind the type of well... some are just for residential use, some are OK for irrigation as well, or you might even have two separate ones.

julieanne912 · March 2016

Forgot to mention on propane, some tanks are owned, whereas others are leased from the propane company. I do not know the cost difference. Also many sellers request that the buyer pay them at closing for whatever is left in the tank, since it can amount to hundreds of dollars.

hoffse · March 2016

I can't speak to propane or wells, but septic is really NBD. Just make sure you don't dump too much grease/fat down the drain and you buy septic-approved toilet paper. Also don't flush feminine products into a septic system.

You can have a garbage disposal on septic. People who think you can't are incorrect. We have one, and it's fine. My parents have had a garbage disposal on their septic system for nearly 30 years. No issues whatsoever.

If you can get a dual septic system with a couple tanks that's the best option, because then you basically double the water capacity and will rarely need to pump them. That said, pumping them isn't hugely expensive - around here it's a couple hundred bucks to have it done.

Those products that are supposed to add healthy bacteria to your tank (so stuff breaks down faster) are a scam. Not to get too detailed here, but the contents of your toilet and garbage disposal take care of that just fine.

julieanne912 · March 2016

hoffse said:

I can't speak to propane or wells, but septic is really NBD. Just make sure you don't dump too much grease/fat down the drain and you buy septic-approved toilet paper. Also don't flush feminine products into a septic system.

You can have a garbage disposal on septic. People who think you can't are incorrect. We have one, and it's fine. My parents have had a garbage disposal on their septic system for nearly 30 years. No issues whatsoever.

If you can get a dual septic system with a couple tanks that's the best option, because then you basically double the water capacity and will rarely need to pump them. That said, pumping them isn't hugely expensive - around here it's a couple hundred bucks to have it done.

Those products that are supposed to add healthy bacteria to your tank (so stuff breaks down faster) are a scam. Not to get too detailed here, but the contents of your toilet and garbage disposal take care of that just fine.

Oh yeah, this reminds me. We have a 2 tank system. H goes out and flips a switch that's on the outside of the house to switch them every 6 months. And yes we have a garbage disposal, and do not pour oil or grease down the drains.

julieanne912 · March 2016

Sorry one last point about septic! Pay attention to where the leachfield and clean outs are. We specifically asked our builder if we could be involved with the placement of it, along with the placement of the clean outs. Some of our neighbors didn't do that and they ended up with some clean outs right where they'd want to put some nice landscaping. If you're buying a resale obviously you're stuck with where they are, but just something to think about when looking.

JoanE2012 · March 2016

We purposely avoided houses with septic and well! No first hand experience, though DH grew up with septic and said they could only use 1 ply toilet paper. I don't know if that's always true now, but that was enough for me to rule out septic. I know, first world problems!

kmurphy2131 · March 2016

We are buying a house with septic. In MA the seller of the home has to complete a Title V which is an inspection of the septic. Generally, if there are any issues the seller has to fix it or replace the system. It's my understanding that lenders wont approve the mortgage without a passing Title V.

Most sellers around here do the title V before they list. Our house that we are buying has a failed test. The sellers are going to install a new tank prior to closing.

I grew up with septic - no flushing tampons, no flushing anything other than toilet paper. Generally they are no big deal. My parents have been in their house for 20 years+ and only get it pumped every few years.

I am very surprised that multiple people are saying that garbage disposals are okay. I have never heard a single person who works in the field say that it is okay. That said, I'm sure that it can work out fine, but I would never do it personally. I'm already mourning the loss of my garbage disposal. Of course knowing that we will have a brand new septic tank that was probably 20K makes me want to be extra kind to it.

hoffse · March 2016

kmurphy2131 said:

I am very surprised that multiple people are saying that garbage disposals are okay. I have never heard a single person who works in the field say that it is okay. That said, I'm sure that it can work out fine, but I would never do it personally. I'm already mourning the loss of my garbage disposal. Of course knowing that we will have a brand new septic tank that was probably 20K makes me want to be extra kind to it.

My parents entire neighborhood was built on septic, and every house has a garbage disposal. It was one of those planned community type things. They've lived there for 30 years, and nobody has had a problem with it to their knowledge. Ours is on septic, and our contractor put in a disposal without questioning it. They really are fine. You just have to make sure your tank is sized properly and cleaned every few years. Food is biodegradable, and the bacteria breaks it down like it breaks other stuff down, the process is just a little slower for food, so it can build up (hence the need to clean it). I would 1000% pay to have my tank cleaned a little more frequently if it means having a disposal.

My guess is many people just don't clean their tanks often enough, and that's why some people in the field don't like disposals.

http://www.askthebuilder.com/septic-tank-garbage-disposal/

@JoanE, most toilet paper is now septic safe. We definitely do not use 1-ply! We buy Costco brand, and it's septic safe.

hoffse · March 2016

Funny thing about septic around here - it actually adds value to your house in the B'ham area, vs. being on sewer. The reason is because when B'ham went bankrupt, the solution to pay for it was an annual increase for sewer charges year after year at a particular rate. We're like 5 or 6 years into it now, and many people's sewer bills are up to around $80-$100/month. It's only going to go higher.

I wasn't really keyed into that, but my realtor told us that she has many clients now asking her to find them a house on septic because it's going to save them around $1000+ per year. By the time we sell I can only imagine what the sewer charges are going to be.

So from an MM standpoint, septic can save you some money since you don't have a sewer bill to pay, even with the cleaning fees every few years.

jessica490 · March 2016

We avoided houses with septic and well also. My parents live in the boonies and have both of these. They just had to have their well replaced for $12K. No thanks!

kmurphy2131 · March 2016

hoffse said:

kmurphy2131 said:

I am very surprised that multiple people are saying that garbage disposals are okay. I have never heard a single person who works in the field say that it is okay. That said, I'm sure that it can work out fine, but I would never do it personally. I'm already mourning the loss of my garbage disposal. Of course knowing that we will have a brand new septic tank that was probably 20K makes me want to be extra kind to it.

My parents entire neighborhood was built on septic, and every house has a garbage disposal. It was one of those planned community type things. They've lived there for 30 years, and nobody has had a problem with it to their knowledge. Ours is on septic, and our contractor put in a disposal without questioning it. They really are fine. You just have to make sure your tank is sized properly and cleaned every few years. Food is biodegradable, and the bacteria breaks it down like it breaks other stuff down, the process is just a little slower for food, so it can build up (hence the need to clean it). I would 1000% pay to have my tank cleaned a little more frequently if it means having a disposal.

My guess is many people just don't clean their tanks often enough, and that's why some people in the field don't like disposals.

http://www.askthebuilder.com/septic-tank-garbage-disposal/

@JoanE, most toilet paper is now septic safe. We definitely do not use 1-ply! We buy Costco brand, and it's septic safe.

I had thought that it was a set in stone thing, but I started researching it and it does look like if you get the right garbage disposal, and treat your septic system right, it won't be an issue. Personally, I wont do it, but that is more related to the system that will be days old when we move in & if anything goes wrong I don't want anything to make me liable. But I would probably consider it otherwise.

labro · March 2016

@hoffse The thing about garbage disposals is so new to me! H has always been ABSOLUTELY NOT about them and we actually keep little strainers in our sinks to help filter out any food waste at all because he's so paranoid about biomat becoming a problem in our leach field.

I'm apologizing in advance for this novel. Things I've learned about living on septic -

Make sure you have a good, reliable, and HONEST plumbing/septic service. The first winter we were in our home our septic backed up into the laundry room because we got over 8 inches of rain at once and the water started backflowing into the house. We had a home warranty and the company they called ended up charging us over $3k for an emergency service and emptying the tank twice (because water from the yard kept gushing into it). Some emergency...they didn't show up until 2 days after the event. The next time we had an issue we had a plan in place that helped us cut off the flow and we ended up calling the county to find a good, reputable company. They named a few places we could trust and the guys we hired put in a brand new leach field (which was our actual issue) for the same cost we paid the "emergency" service. Our county basically advised us to never hire a company that calls themselves Rooter anything because they're just out to make as much money as they can off of you and not provide an honest service.

What's the soil like where you live? Our backyard is heavy red clay (thanks Georgia) and the rate at which water flows from the surface down is pretty slow....but not slow enough that they weren't able to put in a septic system (your flow rate has to be within a certain range for it to be allowed).

Our leach field was 25 years old when we replaced it. We found out that two of the lines were going uphill and completely blocked by tree roots and only the third line was functioning...this was part of the reason why we were having issues.

Speaking of tree roots, what's the backyard like of the house you're looking at (or front I guess depending on where your tank and leach field are located). Part of our problem was the former owners never really did any sort of maintenance on the trees, they just let them all grow out of control (our backyard was heavily wooded when we bought it) and the roots ruined the existing septic lines.

Don't use any products with micro beads (soaps, face washes, etc.). The plastic beads can end up in your leach field and plug up the tiny holes in the pipes.

Apparently using liquid detergents is better than powdered detergents but this is something I'm not sure on. I personally prefer liquid anyway so I didn't really argue with H about it.

Budgeting - What we try to do is budget our monthly water bill to include an amount we'd be paying if we had regular sewer....that way when it's time to empty the tank or we have an emergency, the money is there to cover it.

brij2006 · March 2016

The way it works in our area (rural Illinois), when purchasing a home the well and septic are both inspected by the health department. You can ask for a printout of the drainage lines for the septic and when they were filed as moved or replaced. In our area, the drainage field/lines are moved every 15-20 years as to not over-saturate a certain area. So that is definitely something to ask about if they have that information.

You will want to have the septic tank pumped out every 3-5 years, depending on usage. So you can either ask when the last time it was pumped or try to negotiate that into the purchase agreement so it's empty and ready for your family.

The well can be either inside our outside of the home. You will want to ask. A realtor who usually works with rural homes, should be able to answer where it is located. I know in Illinois, they now require for the well to be outside of the home if it needs to be replaced. So you could ask if there will be any issues with the well in the future, that the realtor or inspector knows of as far as rules and regulations for it needing to eventually be moved.

As far as propane, there is usually a tank located somewhere on the property. There is normally the option to either rent or purchase the tank. You will want to know whether or not the current tank that is there, is rented or owned. If owned, you may want to negotiate that into the purchase agreement if it is not noted to come with the property.
A propane tank is much more expensive to fill because you are doing it in bulk at 1 time rather than having a monthly bill based on your usage. However, you can lock in a rate with the gas company at any time, or contract a price for the next year. This is where owning a tank is a big plus, but the tanks range from $1,000-$5,000 (in our area, at least). You can call around and get the best pricing for the propane and go with that company. If you are renting a tank, then you have to purchase your propane from that company.

hoffse · March 2016

@labro, I'm in Alabama, but my parents have GA red clay all over the place. They have still never had an issue with their disposal.

They are diligent about never flushing anything but TP down the toilet, and they are diligent about grease. But other than that, they don't worry about it. They have it pumped every 5 years or so, and the guys always tell them their system looks great.

formerlyGDaisy09 · March 2016

my parents house has a well/septic, and we currently have propane.

I like propane, in our area it's much less expensive than oil. our hot water heater and furnace run on propane. it would be easy enough to run a line to a gas stove or our grill to make our lives even easier.

As far as the well goes, it can sometimes cause water pressure issues (at my parent's house two people can't shower at the same time, and if you flush the toilet while some one is in the shower they loose water pressure and temperature for 10-20 seconds. Likewise you can't shower while the dishwasher or washing machine are running. Additionally, you're incharge of your own water quality, get the water tested (the home inspector should do this) and test it every few years or if there is any construction going on that might impact the aquifer you're on. My parents have also run into issues where they've run the aquifer they're tapped into dry...often in the summer if an outside faucet mistakenly gets left on.

The septic tank is NBD, like others said, be consious of what you flush. also know where your system is (tank and leach field) and be consientious not to drive any heavy equiptment over it.

labro · March 2016

hoffse said:

@labro, I'm in Alabama, but my parents have GA red clay all over the place. They have still never had an issue with their disposal.

They are diligent about never flushing anything but TP down the toilet, and they are diligent about grease. But other than that, they don't worry about it. They have it pumped every 5 years or so, and the guys always tell them their system looks great.

I wish I had your parents instead of H.

He's extremely paranoid about the septic and after our issues...I don't blame him one tiny bit. We definitely feel more relaxed now that we have a new field but I doubt we'll ever install a garbage disposal. It makes sense to me with what you're saying though. I guess luckily we have an excuse for filtering all the food particles since I use it all to feed my compost pile.

formerlyGDaisy09 · March 2016

also, at least near us, renting the propane tank is NBD. it's a little bit of a PITA if you decide to swap companies, but most companies don't charge you for the tank. when you discontinue your contract they'll pick up the tank and refund you however much propane is in it. and the new company will drop the tank off. the only time owning the tank is to your advantage is if you'd like to burry it in your yard.

hoffse · March 2016

labro said:

hoffse said:

@labro, I'm in Alabama, but my parents have GA red clay all over the place. They have still never had an issue with their disposal.

They are diligent about never flushing anything but TP down the toilet, and they are diligent about grease. But other than that, they don't worry about it. They have it pumped every 5 years or so, and the guys always tell them their system looks great.

I wish I had your parents instead of H. He's extremely paranoid about the septic and after our issues...I don't blame him one tiny bit. We definitely feel more relaxed now that we have a new field but I doubt we'll ever install a garbage disposal. It makes sense to me with what you're saying though. I guess luckily we have an excuse for filtering all the food particles since I use it all to feed my compost pile.

Yeah I can see why you guys would be a little nervous about it with the issues you have had. Most of those issues are really unusual, but it sounds like y'all inherited a system that had not been maintained or updated properly. All tanks build sludge over time, and that's when they need to be pumped. Food particles build sludge faster, but if you pump it at the correct intervals, you still go back to square 1 every time it's cleaned. Where we live, pumping every 3 years and replacing field lines every 20-25 years still saves a small fortune over sewer.

Not going to lie, even though I don't worry about septic very much, I do miss not having to worry about it AT ALL - and despite the serious cost savings of septic where we live, I will probably go back to sewer if I can stomach the price at the time. I miss being able to pour grease down the drain, lol.

JoanE2012 · March 2016

hoffse said:

kmurphy2131 said:

I am very surprised that multiple people are saying that garbage disposals are okay. I have never heard a single person who works in the field say that it is okay. That said, I'm sure that it can work out fine, but I would never do it personally. I'm already mourning the loss of my garbage disposal. Of course knowing that we will have a brand new septic tank that was probably 20K makes me want to be extra kind to it.

My parents entire neighborhood was built on septic, and every house has a garbage disposal. It was one of those planned community type things. They've lived there for 30 years, and nobody has had a problem with it to their knowledge. Ours is on septic, and our contractor put in a disposal without questioning it. They really are fine. You just have to make sure your tank is sized properly and cleaned every few years. Food is biodegradable, and the bacteria breaks it down like it breaks other stuff down, the process is just a little slower for food, so it can build up (hence the need to clean it). I would 1000% pay to have my tank cleaned a little more frequently if it means having a disposal.

My guess is many people just don't clean their tanks often enough, and that's why some people in the field don't like disposals.

http://www.askthebuilder.com/septic-tank-garbage-disposal/

@JoanE, most toilet paper is now septic safe. We definitely do not use 1-ply! We buy Costco brand, and it's septic safe.

hahaha, we only buy Costco brand too! Wish I researched it a bit more - I remember seeing a bunch of nice houses but immediately ruled them out because of septic.

JoanE2012 · March 2016

hoffse said:

labro said:

hoffse said:

@labro, I'm in Alabama, but my parents have GA red clay all over the place. They have still never had an issue with their disposal.

They are diligent about never flushing anything but TP down the toilet, and they are diligent about grease. But other than that, they don't worry about it. They have it pumped every 5 years or so, and the guys always tell them their system looks great.

I wish I had your parents instead of H. He's extremely paranoid about the septic and after our issues...I don't blame him one tiny bit. We definitely feel more relaxed now that we have a new field but I doubt we'll ever install a garbage disposal. It makes sense to me with what you're saying though. I guess luckily we have an excuse for filtering all the food particles since I use it all to feed my compost pile.

Yeah I can see why you guys would be a little nervous about it with the issues you have had. Most of those issues are really unusual, but it sounds like y'all inherited a system that had not been maintained or updated properly. All tanks build sludge over time, and that's when they need to be pumped. Food particles build sludge faster, but if you pump it at the correct intervals, you still go back to square 1 every time it's cleaned. Where we live, pumping every 3 years and replacing field lines every 20-25 years still saves a small fortune over sewer.

Not going to lie, even though I don't worry about septic very much, I do miss not having to worry about it AT ALL - and despite the serious cost savings of septic where we live, I will probably go back to sewer if I can stomach the price at the time. I miss being able to pour grease down the drain, lol.

Wait, I thought you weren't supposed to put grease down the drain, period! We have sewer, and we have a coffee can we keep in the freezer and add grease to it. We don't put any of it down the drain. I didn't know you could!

Erikan73 · March 2016

I haven't lived in a house with any of those but visited friends and family who do. Well water taste different then regular city water. And when it comes to septic tanks, if you plan to entertain, you need to take that into account. When my sister hosted her daughter's wedding reception in her backyard (about 50 people) she ended up renting a large port o pottie to accomodate everyone. If she wouldn't have done that, she said she would have had to get the tank cleaned out right before and after the party because it would have been too much too fast for the tank to handle.

hoffse · March 2016

JoanE2012 said:

hoffse said:

labro said:

hoffse said:

@labro, I'm in Alabama, but my parents have GA red clay all over the place. They have still never had an issue with their disposal.

They are diligent about never flushing anything but TP down the toilet, and they are diligent about grease. But other than that, they don't worry about it. They have it pumped every 5 years or so, and the guys always tell them their system looks great.

I wish I had your parents instead of H. He's extremely paranoid about the septic and after our issues...I don't blame him one tiny bit. We definitely feel more relaxed now that we have a new field but I doubt we'll ever install a garbage disposal. It makes sense to me with what you're saying though. I guess luckily we have an excuse for filtering all the food particles since I use it all to feed my compost pile.

Yeah I can see why you guys would be a little nervous about it with the issues you have had. Most of those issues are really unusual, but it sounds like y'all inherited a system that had not been maintained or updated properly. All tanks build sludge over time, and that's when they need to be pumped. Food particles build sludge faster, but if you pump it at the correct intervals, you still go back to square 1 every time it's cleaned. Where we live, pumping every 3 years and replacing field lines every 20-25 years still saves a small fortune over sewer.

Not going to lie, even though I don't worry about septic very much, I do miss not having to worry about it AT ALL - and despite the serious cost savings of septic where we live, I will probably go back to sewer if I can stomach the price at the time. I miss being able to pour grease down the drain, lol.

Wait, I thought you weren't supposed to put grease down the drain, period! We have sewer, and we have a coffee can we keep in the freezer and add grease to it. We don't put any of it down the drain. I didn't know you could!

You probably aren't supposed to, but I admit I played fast and loose with that rule whenever we had sewer...

jtmh2012 · March 2016

hoffse said:

You probably aren't supposed to, but I admit I played fast and loose with that rule whenever we had sewer...

We have sewer. The problem is the grease solidifies in your pipes. If it does this between your sink and the sewer connection at the street, it's your problem and you have to pay for the plumber to fix the issue. Now I'll admit, we're not real strict about it either. If it's a lot of oil say like from a deep fryer, then we bottle it, but small amounts we run the tap really hot and then pour the oil/grease down with it. My theory is that should keep it liquid at least to the point that it's not my problem anymore.

We were in our last house 10 years and never had any issues.

hoffse · March 2016

jtmh2012 said:

hoffse said:

You probably aren't supposed to, but I admit I played fast and loose with that rule whenever we had sewer...

We have sewer. The problem is the grease solidifies in your pipes. If it does this between your sink and the sewer connection at the street, it's your problem and you have to pay for the plumber to fix the issue. Now I'll admit, we're not real strict about it either. If it's a lot of oil say like from a deep fryer, then we bottle it, but small amounts we run the tap really hot and then pour the oil/grease down with it. My theory is that should keep it liquid at least to the point that it's not my problem anymore.
We were in our last house 10 years and never had any issues.

Yes that's exactly what we would do. Obviously if it was a lot, we would handle it in other ways, but for the small amounts left after cooking we never worried about it. With septic, we take a paper towel and wipe out even the small amounts. It's annoying.

FutureMrsMerati · March 2016

We purchased a home and have a septic, well and installed propane in it so I definitely have some experience to share! I will chime in and add that we have a garbage disposal on our septic and have had no problem, but our septic guy informed us it does depend on the size of your septic tank and somewhat on the age of your tank (older tanks are usually smaller and you will have to clean out more frequently).

With regards to the well, I would HIGHLY recommend running the gamut of all possible water tests. This can cost $300+ in our area but from my experiences it is essential. Often the water quality is fine and issues are limited to hardness (which can wear on appliances over time and can be resolved with the installation of a softener) and sediments (which can be resolved with the installation of a whole-house filter). However, I know people who have uncovered issues with serious bacteria in their wells such as coliform as well as radon exposure, which is the second leading cause of lung cancer in America. These issues require much more serious and costly remediation in excess of $2-5k each.

If you get the water tests done before purchasing, the seller should obviously bear the cost of any necessary remediation. Because we purchased a foreclosure, we bought at our own risk and needed to resolve our water issues on our own. Although many people (like my parents) live comfortably with hard water throughout their lives, because it wears on appliances and can dry out your skin so we opted to have a softener installed this year after living with hard water for a year (~$2,000). We also needed to have a whole-house filtration system installed to remove some of the sediment in our water which was installed by our plumber (~$500).

With regards to propane, the fuel options in our area were oil and propane and we chose to convert to propane because of the flexibility of gas (cooking, generator, fireplace & gas grill hookups). I'm not sure about other areas but I know in the greater NYC area, most companies will lease the tanks to you at no incremental fee - some just put you on a different pricing schedule which is probably slightly higher compared with people who provide their own tanks. We did not want to deal with the purchase and potential maintenance of a tank, so we opted to lease from our propane company, which for us was free if our usage was in excess of 300 gallons/year, obviously easy for people who are using it to heat their homes. Our price/gallon is currently $1.69 and I can't imagine prices could be significantly less for those who own their tanks.

Hopefully this helps! Feel free to let me know if you have any questions. Good luck with the move!!

Septic, Well, Propane

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