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Amy
I have pondering on what you said on the J&K+8 post, and wanted to veer away from focusing on J&K and ask you a question. You said something to the effect of how if two people truly worked at a marriage that it would work (not exact wording, but I think I got the jist). I have a few instances that a believe wouldn't work with your belief, but by all means put in your two cents as well.
#1: Two people accidentally get pregnant while dating, decide to raise the kid together, but want to get married because of their families religious views. Fast forward three years later, there relationship is not working, they never really loved each other to begin with and no with a child the strain on the relationship is even worse.
#2: A couple get married, they are in love. After the marriage the conversation about children comes around, one really wants children, the other seriously does not. Both of them cannot be happy in the current situation.
I know in a perfect world people would not have sex before they are married and that a couple would go through marital counseling to determine compatibility prior to tying the knot, but these are real examples in the real world. Without going back in time and not getting married, what advice would you give these two couples?
Re: Amy
#1: I'm assuming they thought they were in love because they had the warm, fuzzy feelings, but now they are realizing they don't want to be committed to one another, right? They honestly just need to work together to be committed to one another. I don't know how this works when you have a kid, I really don't. And I know it's no where near easy. I don't have the answers, and honestly, I think this couple's marriage would have a hard time surviving, even with hard work, unless they focused on God. I didn't want to preach and still don't want to, but you asked for my personal opinion so there it is. Obviously that doesn't help everyone, so...
Even putting religion and faith aside, arranged marriages in other countries between total strangers work. Why? Because they MAKE them work. And believe it or not, a lot of those marriages are actually happy, good marriages, and not miserable. So, it's possible.
#2: This is a situation that can take a lot of time, talking, and counseling. But to be 100% real, this describes a couple in my family, and 20 years later, one got what they wanted and one didn't - but they still have a wonderfully happy marriage. One of them decided to put aside what they wanted for their partner. And that's what makes a marriage prosper, thinking of your spouse before you. Not being selfish. That was exactly what I was saying in the other post. These situations don't change the message.
It sounds to me like you're looking for excuses. I'm sorry if I said anything that hurt you or offended you, but I find that divorce is almost always unneccessary and it makes me sad that so many people treat it so flippantly.
Ditto this, Amy. I'm not the preach at you type either, but I do believe (flame me for it if you want, I don't care) that if you have a Christ-centered marriage, Put Him first, your spouse second, and yourself third (Hello, YMCA's "I am third" motto) you can not only avoid problems, but also make it through the ones that arise.
I'm highly offended by this. I know it might be difficult for you, but please try to remember that a lot of people, including people in this multi-cultural country of ours, do NOT worship Christ. A 2000-years-dead prophet (as MY religion sees him) has no place in my marriage. So now what? Are you saying that H and I are doomed to problems that we can't avoid because we don't revolve our lives around *your* deity?
Please open your mind to the possibility that your way is not everybody's way.
TTC #1 since January 2013
Not at all, Shex, and I didn't mean to offend, I should've said it as Amy did as 'God' centered instead of 'Christ' centered. I don't believe that you and your H are doomed, the principle follows no matter what religion you follow, spirituality first, others second, yourself third.
Actually, Shex, Amelia said that this was a way to find happiness in a marriage. She never says that "H and you are doomed to problems you can't avoid because you don't revolve our lives around *her* deity". All she said is that she has found that her religion has helped her and others through tough times in their marriage and relationship. To be honest, when I write on boards, I try to avoid religion because I acknowledge that there are many different viewpoints and some people are easily offended, but she was neither preaching nor dooming.
What's wrong with telling the two couples you use as examples to grow up, stop being selfish, realize they made a life-long commitment to someone else, and work at their marriages?? I don't really think it matters what brought a couple to marriage, they did, and now they need to work to uphold it. I also wish people would get over the idea that divorce is ok if they're just not happy anymore. That is so obnoxious. Marriage isn't just about you and it surely isn't about being happy all the time. In fact, it's more about the other person and the promise you made to each other, your family, friends, community, and your God (if applicable). I'm sure it would be difficult, but barring some major abuse issue, both couples you reference need to come to some agreement together and work to stay together.
Also, this, "How is life in paradise?" is incredibly rude, and I'm glad Amy didn't reply to your snarky comment. Also, running to your local to complain about us was a bit childish.
Better, and non-denominational, but still doesn't help those who don't believe in any deity. There are a lot of agnostics and atheists out there too. European census polls show more of both every year.
But more personally, my H doesn't follow any religion. So no matter what religion I may follow, we don't share a spirituality. Plus, we both agree that we don't want any religion OR any government being involved in a relationship that's between just us two. (We can't get around the government part, but we do our best to keep them out of it.)
If religion strengthens your relationship, awesome and more power to you. But I disagree with generalizing that most any marriage can be saved if only people would turn to God, or Allah or Zoroaster or the Flying Spaghetti Monster. That's almost like a crutch -- pray to someone else to help when it's really the two who should be doing all the work together.
And as always, I've taken this post way off topic.
TTC #1 since January 2013
This. And I didn't see anyone attacking you on your comments about sticking it out as much as you patronizing the rest of us for not understanding because we don't have kids. We all have different opinions and we are not going to all agree. Get over it.
Amazingly, it is possible for everyone to have their own beliefs.
Everyone's marriage is different. Everyone's circumstances and background are different.
I don't see any reason for any of us to be offended by someone else's beliefs. They are, in fact, THEIR beliefs. If someone believes one way or another and is vocal about those beliefs, that does not mean they don't have open minds and know that other people work differently. We don't have to accept others ideas as our own but we should accept them as valid. And if we are comfortable in our own beliefs, we will not need to attack others for theirs.
I enjoy healthy discussion of our different ideas but when it comes to being offended or attacking someone for their ideas then it becomes unhealthy.
Sarah, Amelia never said anything about being happy. Try reading her words, as I did. She talked about working through and avoiding problems. Please don't go jumping in and twisting other people's words, mine or Amelia's.
Pallie, I encourage people to be open to others' ideas, which Amelia was very agreeable to -- she freely said "oops, I didn't mean just my god, I meant God" (paraphrasing). I don't tell people not to be vocal about their beliefs. What I DO tell people not to do is to place their beliefs on others. There's a huge difference between saying "here's what works for us" and "here's what married couples should do". Please tell me you see that.
Also, in OP's scenario #1, nobody said anything about love or warm fuzzies. They date, they have sex, they have an unplanned pregnancy. There's no implication that they marry for any kind of love, but rather to appease their families. That is the kind of marriage that should never have happened in the first place.
TTC #1 since January 2013
My interpretation was far closer than your assumption she was attacking. I'm sorry that I paraphrased "getting through problems" as working towards happiness. My B.
People do treat marriage flippantly, I agree, which is why they treat divorce flippantly as well. And I do think it is good to realize that marriage is hard work that requires putting aside yourself and not being selfish. I fail to see how this is life in paradise though. I never said anything about marriage being easy. It's hard work to make it work. But it can work. And you don't agree with me, that's fine. But you did ask for my opinion.
Of course I see the difference in those two. I believe, though, that there is a difference in the way you and I see those statements. If someone says "here's what married couples should do," I see that as being their belief and have no reason to be offended by it...even if I disagree.
Here again, I respectfully disagree with this. I may be taking this the wrong way, but I don't think that praying to my God should be compared to praying to a Flying Spaghetti Monster. I also don't think that my prayer is a "crutch". DH and I belive very strongly in our religion and it helped us get through the worst that life has thrown at us. You can call me whatever you like but I wholeheartedly believe that DH's cancer was found by a miracle (he showed no signs or symptoms, even his bloodwork came up tumor-marker free). We don't believe that prying every day fixes anything in our marriage, we have to work very hard to keep ourselves going, but a little prayer can't hurt, can it?
I agree wholeheartedly that putting God first in our marriage is the key to making it work. Marriage is very hard work, and I'm just glad to know that I do have a heavenly Father that I can pray to and who has a plan for my life. Not to say that's for everybody, but that's how I feel about it personally.
Shex - I also agree completely that the couple in situation #1 should never have gotten married, at least not just because they got pregnant. I always said if anything like that happened to me, I would not get married strictly for that reason because it does lead to many bad situations - resentment, regret, divorce.
I am late on this, but I would like to put in my 2 cents. ; )
I think there are MANY other issues in marriages that you didn't even list, the truth is marriage is hard, you both have to work at it. period. Whether you believe in God or not. I think everyone needs to realize a marriage is about 2 people not just one, and it takes effort and communication. There are a lot of people who don't do this and take the easy way out. For me the only thing I could not handle is an affair. That is bottom line for me because it means all of the above was gone. I would rather know from my DH, "this is not working for me, and I am having thoughts of cheating" instead "I cheated on you I am sorry" This is where the it takes 2 people and both people need to communicate ALL of their fears, worries or whatever, before acting. Especially if it going to effect the other person in anyway.
I happy marriage isn't always happy, it's about learning about each other and realizing a marriage will constantly evolve, it won't be that same yesterday as it will be in 5 years.Thank you Amy, I did ask for your opinion because I was truly interested in your answer, just wanted to hear your take on it all. Now that I look back, I do realize the last sentence about life in paradise sounded a bit sarcastic, but I did not mean it that way. You are still newlyweds, so I assumed that everything was still very fresh and exciting (hopefully that never goes away...or atleast not for very long).
As for the God/religion turn this post took, I'm not touching that one! Haha!
And Jamie, I'm sorry I didn't realize that I needed permission to post something on my local board, but I'm glad I have someone who is interested in everything I write. Keep up the good work! (Yes, this is intended sarcasim)