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can I ask a VERY controversial question?
So, I know there's a massive debate about healthcare in the US right now.
As someone who has experienced both sides of the healthcare coin, I have to say that I'm a huge fan of universal health care now that I'm living in a country that has it. In my experience, the negative examples of emergency room waiting times, etc. that keep popping up in the debates I'm reading online are fairly extreme - I acknowledge that it does happen on rare occasions (and horrible things happen in countries without universal healthcare, too), but I've never experienced anything like that, nor has anyone that I know. I love the fact that I was in the hospital for 10 days with severe complications after an emergency appendectomy without having to worry about money, and I think it's awesome that we don't have to fight with insurance companies to pay for necessary treatments.
I understand that there is a lot of fear surrounding some of the points on the campaign, but a large part of it seems to be based in exaggeration to me (this is a super cool site if you're not sure if a statement is accurate, btw - it's nonpartisan, so they criticize everyone equally).
I'm not trying to stir up a massive debate on the board, I'm just looking for clarification on the reasons why people think this is a bad idea. Since the ladies on this board are all intelligent and levelheaded, I thought I'd ask: if you are anti-universal healthcare, what are the reasons that you are concerned?
This will be a totally flamefree thread - while I've stated my position, I know I may not have all the facts and am open to other opinions. I'm curious about what people (regular people, not politicians) on the other side of the fence are thinking.
Anyone (either for or against) care to weigh in with their thoughts?
Re: can I ask a VERY controversial question?
I think at this point it's more of a political debate vs. a healthcare debate. It seems to me like there are some people who just hate Obama, so if he suggested that everyone in American stops paying taxes for a year, those people would still have an issue with it and start screaming SOCIALISM!
My question is, having a president that goes to war, with no support from the international commuity, no support from the UN. Under false pretenses of WMD and using scare tactics to make some coorelation between 911 & Iraq which does not exist. A war that has killed more americans than 911 plus thousands of innocent Iraqies, these people don't find THAT offensive. But healthcare for Americans in need IS offensive?
I'm sorry, I just don't see the logic.
Cerclage placed @ 21w6d due to CI (IC)
I totally think we should have it!! I think some people are just anti-Obama... I think he came into office during a complete nightmare and he's doing the best he can to sort through it all. Poor guy...
Back to the healthcare thing, I have insurance. I'm a nurse, you'd think my insurance would be great... not so much. I had to have multi ultrasounds when I was pregnant and SOME of them cost me $15 out of pocket and some cost me $138 out of pocket... the difference, the coding completed at the office I had them done!! I called to see if they could code them the same way all the time and was told "oh they were coded this way because that's the way we can code them"... excuse me? I even asked them to look back and see the other ultrasounds and how they were coded.. it was a disaster! Anyhow, it would've been nice REAL nice, not to have to worry about money while I was in the midst of worrying about my unborn daughter. That's enough worry!
Another thing, I can't go part time or even be a SAHM because I carry the insurance for our family. DH's job doesn't even offer insurance. My SIL has the same problem, she runs a daycare- under the table, and her boyfriend works for a company that doesn't offer insurance. So they can't get married and she's pretty much forced to work under the table, so that she can get state insurance... I can't say that I blame her! It's completely ridiculous in my opinion. My mom has insurance and after 9 months of chemo and 3 months of radiation she still may have to file bankruptcy because the bill for HER portion is over $20,000!! That's insane! She should be worrying about getting healthy and her energy back since the cancers gone but instead she has to worry about money.
I think universal healthcare is the way to go! I'm unclear on why people are so against it so I'll be interested to see what others have to say about it.
My one concern would be the wait times for specialty drs (ENT, ortho, etc), Lisa, have you ever noticied that to be an issue? Now with insurance it seems I can get into them pretty quickly (within a month) if needed.
I like the idea of universal health care. At this point, I would be happy with any health care system that would take care of every citizen, whether it's entirely government-sponsored, or if that's just an option for those who don't prefer (or cannot obtain) private insurance. I think it's ridiculous that, in a country like ours, people who are sick cannot take care of themselves properly because they don't have the money to pay exorbitant medical bills.
My mother is out of work. She was walking a friend's dog a few months ago when her back gave out. She laid on the sidewalk for an hour until my sister came looking for her, and then refused to go to the hospital because she has no insurance. We spent two days online looking for clinics that could help her free of charge, or some kind of state-sponsored program we could get her into so that she'd be at least partially covered. Fortunately, after those few days she was able to get up and around, but this could (and most likely will) happen again. If she doesn't find work before that time, what are we going to do?
My family is not nearly destitute, but we still have these concerns. I can't imagine what it must be like to be a family with young children and one or both parents out of work, or working just to make ends meet... and no health care. Or to be diagnosed with a serious illness, watching your treatment bills pile up with no hope of ever paying them down, through no fault of your own! It's not like you're declaring bankruptcy because you spent too much or made bad decisions. With the exception of avoiding known carcinogens, there's no way to say "Nope, sorry, I'm poor... no cancer for me, thanks!".
I'm sure that there are valid concerns about implementing a universal health care system... but I don't agree with the argument that such a system would be tantamount to Socialism. We have public schools, public libraries, public parks, public highway systems. Even our mail is handled by the government! And yet, we've managed to avoid becoming a Socialist society. What makes health care the tipping point?
I think this all comes down to money. The industry generates huge profits for insurance and drug companies. They're not going to give that up (not even a portion of it) without a fight, and they've got the financial means to lobby like hell for their cause. Eventually, something's got to give... I just wish it would happen sooner rather than later!
I'm for it as well. I have the same problem that I carry the insurance for our family. I'd really like to be a SAHM, and honestly, my salary is negligible compared to MH's, but it's the insurance that keeps me in my job. Before we got married he paid for his own private insurance which was about $250 a month (for individual coverage), Not too bad, except when you consider that barely covered anything. He had a physical that required him to have a little further testing, which cost us $1500 out of pocket. We could never afford the premiums for family coverage if that's what we've got to pay in addition to the premiums everytime we need care.
I really think that insurance companies have gotten ridiculous. They have one purpose.....we pay them a premium so that our medical care is covered when we need it. But they don't. They do everything in their power to not pay the bills when the time comes. And the premiums are so expensive that unless it comes with your job, there's no way that the average income (let alone the below average income) could afford it.
I also believe that the basic cost of medical care would go down substantially if there were a cap on medical malpractice suits. People sue doctors every day for things that could not possible have been their fault....like the flu a week later turning into pneumonia. Doctors do their best to care for their patients, but they aren't psychic....they can't see into the future and see what could happen to you later. They can only treat you as best they can with the current symptoms now.
I agree that it all comes down to money....for the drug companies and insurance companies. I realize that any business is primarily out to make money, but I think they need to look as what's best for the people they serve, not lining their own pockets further.
Their "Pants On Fire" graphic is so full of WIN.
I beleive healthcare is something that should be available to all, but I have a have huge concerns that our gov't is capable of running this. THis is the same system that has me paying into social security that I most likely will never collect.
I think we first need litigation reform. 50-75% of test and procedures are defensive medicine. Docs are so scraed of being sued that they must run every test imaginable to cover there behind.
I am just hoping and praying for baby steps to universal healthcare. If we junp in full thritle it could be scary.
I have been waiting for someone to initiate this conversation here. I wasn?t about to be the one because I?ve already been blasted so badly for my thoughts. In fact, it?s begun to make me question the loved ones in my life. I?ve heard such horrible things that it sickens me we have these types of opinions still out there.
I have been ALL for universal health care for many years. The movie SICKO enlightened me in such a way that I always dreamed our country could bring about a leader to really push hard for this. Sure, Michael Moore can be a bit crazy but I feel his whole point was very valid. I watched this movie at a time when I worked with a company that paid 100% of my premium, $10 co-pays, etc??it was the most incredible insurance ever. Now sure I was covered, but I still felt so passionate about this subject. Of course now, this is all different.
Now I am married, unemployed (not by choice), no insurance, DECLINED from 2 health insurance companies for private insurance???so you can imagine my view points now. MH?s small firm doesn?t offer coverage to dependents. We don?t qualify for state aid because he makes ?too much? money. Yes, I?ve gone there. I never imagined in a million years, with the blessed life that I?ve been given, that I would have to consider that option. Soooo I walk around with no insurance and I?m in a place in my life where I REALLY need to get to the doctor. Something is wrong with this picture!
Some of the arguments I?ve heard the last few months for being against this is obviously the biggest ridiculous one, SOCIALISM. Some people don?t like the idea of giving even more to the illegals in our country. Supposed long wait times in the ER, and long wait times for specialized doctors. And sadly, most people argue because they think it will cost our country way too much money. My thoughts are this: everywhere I look, some form of ?socialism? is around. I have so many friends that are military and they?re opinions are what hurt the most to me. Apparently they?ve missed the memo that THEIR medicine is socialized, is it not? They?re owned by the government, hello? I guess it?s easy to form an opinion to be against it when really they have nothing to worry about, or ever will as long as they stay military, and even if they get out after 20 years??the premium is ridiculously low. In my opinion, it?s such a selfish way to think. ME, ME, ME. I did some homework and asked a couple of my Canadian friends (you might know one of them,
),
and then I asked my English neighbor.
All of them said almost the same thing.
They think our country is so upside down. They don?t understand why we help everyone
else in the world, but don?t want to help our own people. As for the waiting times, would you believe
that both Canadians said their waiting times were the same amount of time I
waited for specialists last year?
I agree with you ladies that I think people just HATE the idea of Obama being our president so they?re fighting anything he does. These crazy people showing up to these health care rallies with weapons, big fighting words, starting fights, etc?..it?s all so absurd to me. These people need to really sit down and thank their lucky stars, God, whoever it may be??..and really be thankful they don?t have to worry about the lack of insurance, big health care bills, bankruptcy, etc?..and hope they?re never put in a situation that?s compromising.
I agree with everyone else, it is really a political debate and not that many people are educating themselves on the issues.
I would really like to see universal healthcare and I like the idea of overhauling a lot of the healthcare system to increase productivity and decrease cost.
I have actually had federal healthcare my whole life. It's nice to fall back on, but at times it was sooooooo horribly underfunded that if I had not had back up health insurance through my parents' employers (and now my own employer) I am not sure I would have been given quality health services so that scares me, but not nearly as much as the possibility of my husband or other people I care about not having any health care at all.
And like Lisa, I have seen it work so well. Like when my grandparents got cancer and had never worked a job that provided healthcare (my grandpa is a retired logger and still does treaty fishing/shellfishing, grandma was SAHM her entire life) it was nice to know their care was going to be completely taken care of.
oh and beyond it being just a political debate I really think the medical industry and insurance companies are heavily to blame for the misinformation circulating. Universal health care would not really benefit either one of those groups and they are doing their best to fight it.
I have wonderful insurance from my employer (and like I said - back up insurance after that) so I really shouldn't care how my health care providers bill, but after 3+ years of no diagnosis for my hormonal issues I am astounded at the bills I racked up - many of them unnecessary. The doctors knowingly repeated the SAME bloodwork tests (even after I told I would sign a release and they could order my old files) I was repeatedly asked to come in for the "results" - I would go to the office, wait for 40 mins to be seen by a nurse, had basic vitals taken (no reason), then 20 mins to get a doctor in. At that point she would say, well everything looks normal. ACK, why drag me in there?!?! And it would be billed out at $280 a visit. GRRR.
I'm Canadian, so I've only ever experienced our health care system. I'm very grateful for what we have. When my MIL was diagnosed with colan cancer last year I can't imagine having to worry about her dying and trying to pay the bills for the medication that saved her life (est. $100,000).
That being said, our system isn't perfect. There are private clinics for people who want to pay for surgeries and procedures. Some people vehemently opposed these types of clinics for fear that our health care system would become more like that in the USA.
Sometimes we do have to wait for specialists. I waited 8 weeks to get in to see a Rheumatologist the first time, and now I'm waiting to see an OB (my midwife estimates the wait time to be 3 weeks).
I'm very interested to read all your opinions on this topic!
Married Bio
See above - my MIL also had her cancer treatments at no cost to her (and the same for a couple of other relatives). It absolutely makes my heart ache to hear stories about Sarah's Mom above and what she had to pay in order to save her life...
I am also very thankful for the system we have in Canada and agree with what Teri has added... all in all I have nothing negative to say about our health care, all of my experiences have been positive and wait times have been minimal.
I love Hawaii!
Tara & Ian . 4/24/2008 . The Kahala Planning . Married
It really saddens me to read everyone's stories about how health care in the US has failed them in some way - both Sarahs especially. It's crazy that amongst such a small number of us on this board there are so many of us who have/have had negative personal experiences to share, and I think this is representative of a large portion of the country.
I also honestly don't understand the great opposition to health care reform, and agree with a lot of pps that the debate has both become so politicized and negatively influenced by insurance and pharmaceutical company lobbies, and a large portion of the media. (OMG living with my father in law who watches Fox News every evening is giving me an ulcer I swear.)
Obviously a large part of the problem is the huge, ridiculous number of uninsured (sarah/adpilove, your story literally sickens me. i am so sad for you, and i cannot believe despite every effort you cannot get health insurance). But another huge problem is the underinsured--like Sarah (mrsziz)'s mom. And then there are those people who get an illness like cancer, MS, etc., etc. that causes them to lose their jobs and their lose their health insurance just when they need it most.
For people who are well insured and don't like the idea of health care reform because they worry it will increase their tax burden and they don't want to pay for immigrants/the poor/the uninsured, well, what they don't understand is that they are already paying for these people. The average insured family currently pays an average of an extra $1,100/year in health insurance premiums to cover extra costs related to treating the uninsured--who have to use emergency rooms and cannot afford preventative care. Wouldn't it be great if all of these families--or the small and medium sized businesses who pay their policies--had an extra $1,100/year to pump into the economy/savings/new hires?
And those people and members of the GOP who say, "sure, we need healthcare reform, but the democrats plan is just not good," WHY in the past 8 years did they just let the problem grow and not introduce their own legislation and bright ideas? I think if people think we need to wait around for the "perfect" legislation to fix the health care system it will be too late, and it will never happen. We just can't wait any longer to get this taken care of.
I pray this week I will have good news on a job, a federal one at that.....then perhaps I won't have these huge issues. I've had to turn away jobs, or not even apply to good jobs simply because they don't offer insurance. Better things are coming my way though, I still have hope!
Yes they are! I am thinking of you and hoping for good news
I love Hawaii!
Tara & Ian . 4/24/2008 . The Kahala Planning . Married
I'm in favor of some kind of major reform and a public option. I just don't feel safe relying on employer-provided coverage anymore.
DH is covered 100% through work. I am self-employed, and purchase my excellent coverage through COBRA -- I pay $330/month and this expires next May. I'll jump onto DH's plan, but will still pay the same rate and when we have a child, he/she will ALSO cost $330/month. That's an astronomical $660/month for a family of 3, or nearly $8K per year -- not including co-pays! That would seriously strain us, but there is no way I would risk going without the coverage... too many bankruptcies have occurred this way, which is seriously tragic.
Currently, though, I don't mind paying the $330/month. I'm healthy, but considering that I do a lot of preventative care -- like yearly skin checks with my dermatologist, travel vaccinations, etc -- I pretty much get my money's worth each month. I just can't believe some of the charges, even at the insurance adjusted rate!!! So that's another issue that needs to be addressed in this giant mess.
Finances aside, my main concern is ACCESS. If DH were to lose his job, we could NOT purchase the plan we currently have, which provides lots of choices in providers and little red tape. As a self-employed person, I have looked into my options, and I can pretty much only buy HMO or catastrohpic coverage. It scares me that we rely on a big employer to provide us access to quality care.
I firmly believe the government should step in and help us average folk (1) have a choice among plans and (2) be able to afford health care for the long run.
Just like Teri & Tara, I am also Canadian and also very thankful for what we have. The only things we may experience is waiting lists for specialists which in some cases can be long or not enough hospital beds to treat patients. There has been reported stories of people not being able to wait and having to go to another province or cross the boarder and pay it for it out there own pocket.
Also in reply to Sarah (apidlove) "I did some homework and asked a couple of my Canadian friends (you might know one of them,
), and then I asked my English neighbor. All of them said almost the same thing. They think our country is so upside down. They don?t understand why we help everyone else in the world, but don?t want to help our own people"
For a country that is such a "super power", it's just so incomprehnsible why they will not help there own people. It is very sad. Everyone should be entitled to health care.
This! We could afford for me to stay at home right when the baby comes but I can't, and it sucks. And COBRA is ridiculous! It would cost me probably $800+ per month once we add the baby.
If not universal healthcare, we need a way to make healthcare more affordable for people who are self-employed or choose to stay at home. And for those with pre-existing conditions. I was denied insurance when I was going to nursing school because I had an existing back problem. I ended up having to just get catastrophic health insurance and luckily didn't need to use any of it.
I totally agree that the issue is more of a political one than a healthcare one. And I think a lot of the people who are against it are the ones who are more interested in the profit of the insurance companies than the well-being of the people.
Wow, thanks for all the replies, ladies! I knew I could count on the women on this board to have such well thought out and reasoned responses. It seems like so much of what I'm hearing/reading is crazy fearmongering, I wanted to know what normal (rational lol) people thought - if it genuinely is a concern, or if more people think that it would be a good thing.
I've never noticed this being a problem. While I've never needed anything other than GP care, my FIL has - he had bowel cancer removed a couple years ago, and therefore needed to see an oncologist, etc. As far as I know, he never had excessive wait times at all - they would tell him they wanted to see him in a week or whatever, and that's when his next appointment would be.
To be fair, I HAVE had to wait to see my OBGYN for up to 2 weeks. However, this isn't so much due to the system as to the fact that I prefer to see on particular doctor in a practice of 7 docs, and that practice (and that doctor) are quite popular. However, on the occasions when I've desperately needed to get in to see her (like when I miscarried), I was able to see her that day - she's very good about making time when she needs to.
One thing that IS brought up in the media here is the shortage of beds in hospitals. However, this is really more due to staff shortages in the areas where it is a problem (and it's not a problem everywhere, just in certain places).
Another thing that I should be fair about is that this country has both universal AND private health care. I hold both. My private health care covers things like dental care and ophthalmology, which are not covered under the universal health care policy (and employers do not offer insurance here) - it also covers private hospital treatment, but that's not really such a big deal. (I know there's been a lot of hoopla over the idea of public and private hospitals in the USA, with people in private supposedly getting better care - that's not really what happens, especially since most of the country's best surgeons etc are at large public hospitals - the privates are more to take care of optional surgery, at least in the area where I live). For Ben and I, it costs about $200 a month. But like I said, that's totally optional (in an emergency, I would still go to the public hospital), and the main reason we have it is for the extras like dental and ophthalmology.
I thought Alix brought up an interesting point about health issue prevention, which has been discussed here - for example, should people who are severely obese (without medical cause) have to pay extra tax? Should fast food ads be banned during sporting events on TV? I'm not sure where I fall in the debate about that so far, but it's been interesting.
This is not bad at all! I have private insurance and the wait for my old OB/GYN was 2 MONTHS! AYKM? When I first got my BFP I had to see the nurse practitioner, which I didn't like. I don't even know when I would have finally seen the doctor. I ended up switching doctors for that, and other reasons.
Lisa, do you know what malpractice insurance is like in Oz? Or if there are lots of lawsuits? I know that here in Nevada, there was a huge OB/GYN shortage because of outrageous malpractice insurance rates.
As Alix mentioned, this is definitely a complex issue. There are many facets and causes underlying the mess we are in today. I just hope the right people will make the soundest decisions based on the best information available. I don't have the highest confidence in government programs.
In Hawaii, many doctors are leaving because they can't afford to practice here. One cause is outrageous malpractice claims. I'm not saying there are no malicious doctors out there, but there are also not-so-honest patients. It's definitely a delicate situation.
I'm torn on the issue because of an experience I had with my own father. The man had a pretty bad stroke while uninsured. Personally, I feel that his uninsured status was his own fault...negligence, to be quite frank. As the oldest child, it was up to me to sort out his affairs and figure out what to do while he was in the hospital for 5 days, racking up quite a sizable bill including hospital stay, drugs and countless tests.
He wasn't destitute enough and wasn't quite old enough to qualify for medicare/medicaid. Due to the stroke, he had a "pre-existing" medical condition, which disqualified him from any type of private insurance. I felt so hopeless. However, at the same time, I didn't feel he (we) "deserved" any type of handout from anyone. Again, I felt his uninsured status was his own damn fault. It was a weird feeling.
In the end, the hospital "forgave" 1/2 of his hospital bill. The remainder of his bills had to be paid by cashing in the portion of my mom's IRA that he got as a result of their recent divorce (which is quite ironic because she is also to "blame" for his uninsured status). And, thanks to info from a former Knottie, he now has VA benefits (he did time in the Air Force).
Sorry for rambling. I'm not sure what I hoped to accomplish by sharing this. It's a complex issue and I still stand somewhere in the middle, neither violently for nor against. I still need to do my research.
VERY interesting thread. As someone who plans to leave Canada to move to the US, I'm really learning a lot from this.
To be honest, I am scared to leave what I have here behind (Canada's healthcare system) to rely on DH's insurance (which isn't too bad, but not great either). Also, when we do TTC, I'm really worried about unexpected charges with ultrasounds, etc. I almost want to come back to Canada while I'm pregnant, have the baby here, then return to the US
Like Nicole, I need to do my research as well. What I like about MSP (Canada's Healthcare) though, is that I know exactly what I'm covered for without having to fight any insurance company for basic coverage.
That said, MSP still isn't perfect but I do feel better knowing it's there.
I have to say, I really don't know. I do know that per capita, Australia is the most litigious country in the world (which is a fact I like to mention whenever anyone snidely comments to me about how lawsuit-happy Americans are). However, you don't hear about medical lawsuits very often...I don't think they're nearly as common, although I wouldn't be able to say why.