Hot Topic Tuesday - Burkas in Banks

Five_letter · October 2010

So DH is a bank manager.

His banks have been armed robbed TWICE this week by individuals dressed in Muslim Burkas.

Wearing them allows the perpetrators to not only conceal their identity but also weapons.

Is this a risk business owners have to take? Can you deny service to people in banking or access to the bank?

I highly doubt any of the robbers were actually Muslim, it's just an easy disguise that is a step better and more 'under the radar' than a Nixon mask.

Solutions?

LarissaAnn · October 2010

As far as concealing weapons, that can happen with a lot of clothing. We're heading for winter and jackets/coats are great concealment for weapons, especially those puffy coats that were so "in" last year.

As for being able to ID people... that's a tough one. I agree that it's terrible for tellers and we need to be able to ID people, but at the same time, I don't see that we can limit people's practice of their religion by forbidding coverings. After all, it'd have to be done fairly, which would mean no hats or kippahs for Jews too. And what about wigs and not being able to ID real hair color? Color contacts to mask eye color? I just think it's a slippery slope there... and then you're punishing a religious group for the actions of people you agree probably aren't even part of that group, which certainly isn't fair.

I don't know what the solution is.

LarissaAnn · October 2010

Or... metal detectors in banks... and those x-ray machines like at the courthouse. It works there.

Five_letter · October 2010

This is where my internal debate is kicking in.

Heck, you can't even wear hoodies in high school anymore due to possible weapons and violence.

It's just so frustrating from my standpoint.

I could see allowing head scarves and wraps (not sure of the exact title) but not full burkas.

Couldn't a business owner refuse to service anyone they choose?

I believe that my liquor store could refuse service to anyone they choose for any reason (I could be wrong here, but that's the way I always believed it). Why couldn't a bank?

mlveynar · October 2010

You're getting my brain cells moving tonight!

I partially think that it's a risk of business, but I don't know what you could do about it, other than Larissa's suggestion of metal detectors.

I pretty much agree with all that Larissa said. Declining to do business with individuals in burkahs is a lawsuit waiting to happen, imo. I agree that if you limit the burkahs, you have to limit any religious clothing, which is a lot.

But also, how in the world do you id a person in a burkah? Is the whole face covered except the eyes? Or am I thinking of something else?

Five_letter · October 2010

mlveynar:
But also, how in the world do you id a person in a burkah? Is the whole face covered except the eyes? Or am I thinking of something else?

Exactly. This is the problem. From a public safety standpoint, it's a nightmare.

I find it interesting that France from what I understand is outlawing them.

I'm biased right now because the robberies are fresh in my mind.

LarissaAnn · October 2010

She's right, it's a lawsuit waiting to happen. You can't limit doing business with people based on their inclusion in protected classes, which includes their religion... and in essence, you'd be refusing to do business with devout Muslims. Bad idea.

Metal detectors. It's the best way.

Vikki2pay · October 2010

mlveynar:
I pretty much agree with all that Larissa said. Declining to do business with individuals in burkahs is a lawsuit waiting to happen, imo. I agree that if you limit the burkahs, you have to limit any religious clothing, which is a lot.
But also, how in the world do you id a person in a burkah? Is the whole face covered except the eyes? Or am I thinking of something else?

Yes

And I agree with Larissa on the metal dectectors, I think it's the only way to do it.

the domesticated newlywed · October 2010

Five_letter:
I could see allowing head scarves and wraps (not sure of the exact title) but not full burkas.

Hijab. Personally, I am not offended or scared by women in full dress ( hijab/burqa ) I think living in such an incredibly diverse area has contributed to that. anytime you try to segregate people there is so much fervor and buzz about it that it's blown out of proportions. Its hard to tell a Muslim woman to remove her hijab when entering a bank, it's worn at all times - not like a yalmuka that's worn mainly at Temple or during prayer ( Jackie and Larissa correct me if I am wrong ) it's hard to say, obviously you want safety above all else but you have to tread lightly, or be prepared for a law suit.

LarissaAnn · October 2010

No, orthodox and more religious conservative Jewish men must keep their heads covered at all times, not just in synagogue.

And orthodox/very conservative married Jewish women must wear head coverings as well at all times - hats or wigs, mostly. The hair has to be entirely covered. That's where my comment regarding ID via hair color came from.

Five_letter · October 2010

the domesticated newlywed:
Five_letter:
I could see allowing head scarves and wraps (not sure of the exact title) but not full burkas.
Hijab. Personally, I am not offended or scared by women in full dress ( hijab/burqa ) I think living in such an incredibly diverse area has contributed to that. anytime you try to segregate people there is so much fervor and buzz about it that it's blown out of proportions. Its hard to tell a Muslim woman to remove her hijab when entering a bank, it's worn at all times - not like a yalmuka that's worn mainly at Temple or during prayer ( Jackie and Larissa correct me if I am wrong ) it's hard to say, obviously you want safety above all else but you have to tread lightly, or be prepared for a law suit.

Who's to say these thieves are even women? We can't tell. The last burglar caught in Philly doing this was actually a man.

aligator423uf · October 2010

mlveynar:
But also, how in the world do you id a person in a burkah? Is the whole face covered except the eyes? Or am I thinking of something else?

Thinking back to my teller days, I remember being told in training that a female teller or personal banker was supposed to take them somewhere private so they could remove their burkah to be identified.

In real life though, this is something that I never actually had to do. I lived in a progressive college town and never came across someone dressed traditionally.

I did, however, experience a robbery where the guy hid his "weapon" in his coat. He never showed it and we later suspected that all he did was point his finger through his pocket. He didn't wear any other disguise except for a plain baseball hat. I think metal detectors are an excellent idea.

LarissaAnn · October 2010

aligator423uf:
mlveynar:
But also, how in the world do you id a person in a burkah? Is the whole face covered except the eyes? Or am I thinking of something else?
Thinking back to my teller days, I remember being told in training that a female teller or personal banker was supposed to take them somewhere private so they could remove their burkah to be identified.
In real life though, this is something that I never actually had to do.

I could see this being a nightmare too... what if the "woman in a burqua" is really a man with a gun? And now you're alone in the room with him? There's a robbery waiting to happen if I ever heard one!

aligator423uf · October 2010

LarissaAnn:
aligator423uf:
mlveynar:
But also, how in the world do you id a person in a burkah? Is the whole face covered except the eyes? Or am I thinking of something else?
Thinking back to my teller days, I remember being told in training that a female teller or personal banker was supposed to take them somewhere private so they could remove their burkah to be identified.
In real life though, this is something that I never actually had to do.
I could see this being a nightmare too... what if the "woman in a burqua" is really a man with a gun? And now you're alone in the room with him? There's a robbery waiting to happen if I ever heard one!

I think it was more for when they originally set up their account. But again, I never actually experienced this so I'm not really sure if this rule was really adhered to. There are plenty of other ways you can ID a person like asking personal info, last few charges on the account, ect.

Hot Topic Tuesday - Burkas in Banks

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