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Friday talking point
I like posts where we can have thoughtful considerate conversations regarding interesting, sometimes controversial, topics. So here goes?
I was talking to my boss yesterday about toilets. A client has requested a tall, elongated bowl toilet. Great. My boss then brought up something regarding the toilets at HCMC. She said that in all of the bathrooms there is a sign that says, "If you are X pounds or above, please use the toilet in room X." (She doesn't recall the exact weight but says it wasn't very high in her opinion. Let's say for this discussion it is 250 because that is what she thinks she remembers.) My boss stopped to asked a maintenance guy about the signs and he said they have replaced a LOT of toilets because heavier people sit on them and the porcelain actually breaks. This is especially the case on wall-mounted vs. floor-mounted toilets.
What are your thoughts? Should buildings where the public will be have to design their facilities for excessive weight? I know that you'll get all shapes and sizes in a hospital. Maybe it's like how every building has to design to the ADA codes (American Disabilities Act) even though that is a small % of the population? I've noticed in the waiting room at the clinic that there are extra wide chairs. America is getting bigger so our designs are changing.
I'm not quite decided on how I feel about all of this. I know we had issues at the office with our wall-mounted toilet detaching from the wall because of a heavier coworker. She is no longer here though so we haven't had to address it. It was fixed and not mentioned to her. It can be a VERY sensitive topic, obviously.
SO....I open it up to any and all thoughts. :-)
Re: Friday talking point
Hmm. Weight/size issue aside - wouldn't someone want to use the best possible product at their budget? If wall mounted toilets COULD crack due to heaver weights on them, why wouldn't they just do floor mounted toilets? If I knew there was a chance the product would break after general wear-n-tear, I just would avoid using that product.
My viewpoint is that we should strive for the most inclusiveness as possible in our public spaces. Why install a wall mounted toilet when a floor mounted toilet will work? Especially since the floor mounted toilet hold up better with repeated use by a varied population. Why use skinny chairs in a waiting room when larger chairs will comfortable accomodate almost all types of body shapes?
For what it's worth.. we had to replace a few doors at my work because one of my coworkers (a tiny bird of a woman.. 110 lbs soaking wet!) has a habit of hanging on the door knobs as a nervous/bored habit. Obviously doors aren't as strong as toilets and they aren't intended to be, ahem, load bearing (pardon my pun..), but I feel like things can break or deteriorate for many different reasons.
jack | born 9.13.12 at 40w4d | 9 lbs 12 oz | 23 in
my puppy loves - chloe & jenson
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Interesting about the signage.
Obviously I have thought about this like you have especially with ADA. We had discussions at work about whether heavier/larger sized items or considerations would start to be included in ADA - and then will they still call it Americans with Disabilities...because can you call obesity a disability? what about just really tall people like an NBA player who is over 7' tall - do we need to start making all door oepnings 8'? Since we do already design everything (and I mean everything for those not aware) for a small percentage of the population, will this become the norm now too in addition to access for all, it will be sized for all?
I am clearly not answering your questions but have experienced public wall mounted toilets that have clearly come loose from the wall. Is it just overuse or is it because of under-design?
Boy/girl twins born at 37w1d and 37w2d
jack | born 9.13.12 at 40w4d | 9 lbs 12 oz | 23 in
my puppy loves - chloe & jenson
pregnancy blog | chart
It is definitely becoming a "where is the line drawn"? type of issue.
We do mostly residential design here at my office so we don't encounter some of these issues very often if at all. We just happened to be on the topic of toilets so I got to thinking about it.
I'm not sure what the solution is. I don't think we should fill the world with giant chairs and toilets but when DO we make accommodations?
File this under "things that make me go hmmmmm."
The answer is YES. Obesity is a metabolic disorder. Obesity is a disease similar to diabetes. This is a new concept. People used to think obesity was an eating disorder. Research as proved it to be a disease. It can be brought on by ones bad habits/poor choices. It can be managed but even controlled it is not something that ever goes away. It is a disease that will always require consideration to control. I?ve lost 135 lbs, however, I will always have the DISEASE of obesity. I will always have to make sure I am managing my disease by exercising, watching what I eat, how much I eat, when I eat, make sure I get enough sleep, etc. Just like a person with diabetes can control their disease with some of the same things, the disease is always there.
As someone who used to be ?fat? I am personally tied to the issue. Yes, things should be made to accommodate everyone not just those deemed acceptable by others. As pp mentioned, obese people have enough problems. They should not be singled out because of it. Let me tell you, you don?t have any idea of the limits an obese person has. Most of the time THEY don?t realize how much their size limits their lives. I didn?t, until I didn?t have the limitation anymore. I can actually bend over to clean my bathtub. I can walk more than 30 ft without feeling like I?m going to fall over. I can go in the ?regular? size stall in a public rest room and actually get the door closed behind me. These are all things I didn?t even think about as an obese person. You wouldn?t believe the discrimination obese people deal with.
The whole thing makes me so angry I can barely put my thoughts together.
LOL and I do have to agree with this. Obviously as a society we're getting heavier and bigger every year. More and more accomodations need to be made. It seems weird to me though that HCMC would only change one of their toilets when they know the other ones have the possibility of cracking too. It may happen after overuse, whether or not the person is heavy. It would make more sense to change them all, but that may be a budget issue.
Yeah it's not as easy as just throwing in a floor mount toilet. Major plumbing work has to happen and I'm guessing there are more pressing priorities at a hospital that need to be done before money is allocated to toilet changes.
I agree with Dutchgirl that NEW projects should take these things into consideration (but to what degree?). It just might not be feasible in older building, such as HCMC, to change everything.
If an older building is non-ADA compliant nothing is done. If new work is done on the building it does have to be brought up to ADA standards then.
It's tricky to decide if and when to update things if by law they aren't required but society is moving in the direction that requires those changes.
Loveablesarah - thanks for your insight on this topic. I think far too often people incorrectly assume if someone, "Just stops eating so much" they will be fine but that is obviously not the case. It's a very complicated matter.
But don't employers have to make accomodations to the building if they hire someone with a disability? That's part of the ADA as well. Otherwise, it would be discrimination.
Judging
two things.
1. i'm thrilled to see an increased focus on nutrition, education, food sourcing and exercise. it seems we went through a period of "fattening" with the invention/adoption and embracing of convenience and genetically modified foods but it seems that we're wising up. i hope we are. we can't just accept that being a big society is "just the way it is".
so [2.] that said, i DO NOT think the right thing to do is retrofit the world for large people. that to me is like giving in, accepting that this is who we are and we don't intend to change. yes, there will always be obese people due to genetics or other medical issues so i agree that SOME accommodations should be made. a few larger seats on the plane, a few larger chairs in the waiting rooms... whatever people may need to be comfortable. but just changing everything...that seems like admitting defeat. ending up like a scene in WALL-E may seemed far fetched but with baby steps, we could end up there.
[flame away!]
That I'm not sure about. I usually just deal with the physical structure of the building and not the people that go in it.
When it comes to making physical changes things have to follow code at the time the renovation/remodel is done.
We could just install these everywhere for you Melinda! :-)
Bad memories of these in China . . . what you can't see is the stall doors are really short as well so you can see every body when you are standing up . . . awkward. And they were dirty.
Nicole and Sam 10/3/09
Ah I remember the squatters from Eastern Europe.
Kiz pretty much touched on it all in re: buildings.
When it comes to new construction the codes are in place to accomodate the current requirements at the time. But, when codes change - they are not always adapted overnight. Don't quote me on this, but I think the version of IBC (international building code) that most entities recognize is 2007. it takes years to write new code, and then even longer for jurisdictions (States, Counties) to adopt. THEN...each city has it's own codes. And I know nothing about Federalwork, but that is a whole different ball game.And THEN it could completely depend on the code official. They can pretty much require or deny anything they want.
Point being - these things take time to change. Lots of steps to go through before codes are adopted and then enforced.
In re: wall mounted vs. floor mounted toilets, there are a ton of reason why one is chosen over the other. Same with any fixture like paper towel dispensers, faucets, door handles etc. - and 99% of the time it comes down to cost in public buildings at least.
If the client has special requests or needs that need to be met at the time of construction, they can usually be addressed. Unfortunately our buildings aren't throw away and have to last a lot longer then the current tenant. So if something was designed in 1985 with someone in mind, it could be completely ridiculous and unnecessary today.
Loveablesarah - I didn't mean to imply I think obesity is or isn't a disability - I was more or less "thinking out loud" and didn't mean to make anyone upset. It's such a touchy subject (as Kiz pointed out in her OP) and I think learning how to address these changes in society and how we shape our environment for it's users is something that needs to continue to be discussed.
On the other hand, the way we design our buildings, cities, and environment can impact the way we move and can encourage more daily activity if the foresight is there on the part of the client and the community using said environment. This includes a lot of things like the opportunity for more walking, fresh air, daylight, work space design including desks and computer stations that allow for more movement or flexibility. Again...thinking out loud.
Boy/girl twins born at 37w1d and 37w2d
I learned to love squat toilets when I lived in Taiwan! They made so much more sense, because I never SIT on a public toilet anyway, and as a short person, it's much easier to squat over the floor than to try and hover my a$$ over a toilet seat that's too tall for me.
Some of them (e.g. at public bus stations) were gross and dirty, but there are gross/dirty public restrooms with seat toilets too, so I don't think that's an inherent feature of squat toilets.
fascinating post. I think ADA is offset by "undue burden" on an employer. So if you hired a walking employee who then got in an accident and was permanently in a wheelchair, but the retrofitting of your building would be prohibitively expensive, that employee can be fired for not being able to work. This is probably why 70% of disabled people are unemployed!
I suppose there are handicap seats, and those should be floor based toilets for all sorts of people (they tend to be taller, too, right? for folks with chronic pain or joint issues). I'd hate to see a "fat people piss here" sign on some stalls though.