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2nd Counseling Session Today (vent)
Just wanted to pop in and post because I feel like I need to get something off my chest.
Today is our second marriage counseling session. I really want to believe that it's going to help, but I'm seeing things that seem to indicate otherwise. H continues to say all the right things, but his actions do not reinforce the things he's saying. It's incredibly frustrating! I'm seeing his actions in a different light, I guess.
I feel like every argument we've gotten into since I came home has been set up. I recognize that this is textbook behavior for abusive partners, and I feel like a dope for not seeing it earlier! But it always ends with him saying "If I have to do all this work and change myself, you have to too!" Never once in ANY conversation that we've had did I say that I am without blame for our situation. Never to him, never to anyone! It makes me feel like all the effort I'm putting into our marriage is in vain because he's taking my effort and interpreting it as me "giving in" and he wins so his work is done. I don't feel like there's a winner in this situation. If he is not willing to give up this attitude, is there really hope for us? If there's no hope, why are we wasting time, money, and energy trying to fix this?
I feel like he's constantly testing me to see if I'm really trying. For crying out loud, this is not a contest to see who is the better spouse! Grow the F UP!
Sorry for the vent, but I really needed that! Thanks for reading! I'll try to post a more tangible update after our session.
Re: 2nd Counseling Session Today (vent)
Testing each other is counter productive in just about every relationship we'll ever have.
I would bring up what you typed here is your session tonight. "I feel like I am constantly being tested. I'm willing to work on things about myself that are counterproductive to this relationship, but I am not willing to be tested. If H's goal in this counseling is to try to determine who is a better spouse, I am not sure I'm interested in continuing the relationship or counseling - I never got married as part of a contest."
However, be careful about laying down such ultimatums if you are not willing to end the relationship.
Good luck to you - I hope you find a resolution that you are happy with.
The one thing at the top of his list is that I have "poor housekeeping skills". I don't necessarily see it that way, I enjoy having a clean house just as much as the other person. However, if there are dishes in the sink that need to be washed, but DS wants me to read him a book, I choose the book.
Oh yes, and he thinks that I am constantly judging him and he doesn't think that's fair. But apparently it's ok for him to judge me?
I'm feeling very negative today. I know this is probably not the way to be feeling when we're supposed to be working on our marriage together in a couple hours, but I can't seem to shake it.
You're really surprised that he's much the same person he's always been after two whole counselling sessions? This was the whole point of everyone saying that he had to demonstrate real change of attitude and behavior before you reunited. He TOLD you he changed. You believed he could change. But change is the really hard, grinding, difficult work that you two haven't even begun.
Of course he turns it all around on you. That's what he does. When has he ever stopped doing that?
Nothing about your counseling sessions is a waste. If you invest your time, money and energy into fixing your realtionship ... and it doesn't get fixed then you know that it is over. You ran out of your home in a fit of terror and anger. But it wasn't over. You were out for 9 days and it was never over. Family and friends advised you to go back, so it wasn't over. You waited on the doorstep, in the rain for promises before you walked in, but it wasn't over. THIS. This work, tried and failed and tried again and twisted against you ... and blamed against you ... and heartache and failure and ... false hope .. a little success .. then a huge set-back ... and disappointment ... crushing disappointment will give you the insight, skills and voice to finally, finally, finally say 'It's over'.
Your goal in couselling is to change each of you, just enough, to have a healthy relationship. I know that, you know that. But what eveyone is conserned about- is what if he justs continues to keep being this way? How are you going to stop being talked into living like this? And that's where the time, money and energy of couseling becomes valuable. Not because it saved your marriage, but becuase it saved you from continuing in this marriage.
Just remember, that counseling is not about MAKING the marriage work It's about working on your marriage, and your own issues (communication, how you fight) and figuring out if the marriage is what you want. If he doesn't want to work, you don't have to stay married.
If I were in the position your H put you in, and he said "I don't want to do all the work," I'd turn around and say "well, I was the one who felt the situation was so bad that I had to leave, so I guess the marriage really didn't meet my standards for staying in it. If you want to improve things, that's your choice. I can't make you promises about what I will do. If not, I can leave again for good."
I hope you are going to individual counseling as well. You don't need to be married to this guy!
Ok, yeah, this would pisss me off. If you're reading to DS, why can't HE do the dishes? I think "housekeeping skills" are about more than a clean house.
There are areas of housekeeping that I admit I can work on, and I have been putting more effort into those areas. Unfortunately, when I do, I get contradicting messages from H.
Dishes are the easiest example, so I'll stick with that.
I was rinsing a pan from dinner and H wanted me to look at something he did. I told him just a minute, I wanted to finish with the pan, and he said "Why? It's not like you're going to be the one doing the dishes anyway."
Normally, he does the dishes because he works part time and he decided that he would take on that chore since I usually cook. But a big rub for him has been me not rinsing the dishes immediately before putting them in the sink. So, I have tried to not only do that, but go one step further and put my rinsed dish directly into the dishwasher. But when my efforts inconvenience him, that little extra is forgotten and it becomes, "don't worry about it, youre not doing the dishes anyway."
Part of me wants to just not worry about it and throw it back in his face when he complains, but I know that would be counter productive.
Please get out of this relationship....
And has this guy EVEN set up an appointment to go to anger management? I bet not.
Please Please Please end this for your sake and the sake of your child. This is not getting better. And it won't UNTIL you finally CEASE contact with this abusive person.
Sara, Friend?
glove slap. I don't take crap.
THANK YOU SO MUCH! This is exactly what I think I needed to hear this morning.
I don't want to feel like I'm wasting my time, and you're absolutely right. If counseling helps us grow together, fantastic. If it helps me to finally say enough is enough, that's great too. Either way it's not a waste. I think I need to keep that in mind if I'm going to get anything out of this.
You realize that this isn't about the dishes or your housework skills, right?
I'm not so sure she does livingitup. Seems like she's focusing on that to avoid seeing the major pink elephant in the room.
Yes, I do, or at least I think I do. The dishes are just the easiest examples of the behavior. I don't believe that the dishes are the real issue. I feel like he's using them as ammunition against me in an attempt to prove that he's better than me to prove that he doesn't have to change. Because I don't want him to have ammunition, I try to make sure that these little things are done.
however, because it is always easier for those on the outside of an emotional situation to see the real issues, I can certainly see how I may be focusing on the wrong areas. That is part of the reason I come here.
I think he's using (to stick with your example) the dishes as a way to exude power and authority over you. And it is working.
He doesn't like that you don't rinse the dishes. So you. Then he doesn't like that you do. So you don't. See the pattern?
I just don't see how this relationship is ever going to be one built on partnership and trust and love. I'm sorry you're going through this.
Do you own an Ipod? There is a microphone you can attach to it and get it to function like a recorder. Reporters use them.
The next time you are having a disagreement, haul it out. Tell him that you think the therapist will be able to understand your issues with arguing if she can hear you guys fight. Trust me, his fighting style will change if he thinks someone else will hear his abusive behavior. Plus, it might cause you to review your own fighting style -- sometimes we don't realize how we sound in the moment.
He will balk, but it will cause him to rethink his approach.
This exactly. I know I haven't posted much on your threads, but I have followed them, and I just want you to know that my heart goes out to you.
But MKE is exactly right. You will never be an equal in this marriage. He wants you to do what he wants you to do whenever he decides that he wants you to do it. You will never be able to follow his rules; when you do, his rules will change. You have got to break this cycle and raise your DS to see that this is not an acceptable way to behave or to treat any human being, let alone a significant other or a wife.
GL to you, I wish you the best.
Here's the thing:
It's actually quite common for abused women to fall into the pattern of always working really hard at being one step ahead of whatever triggers the abuser. It's "not about the dishes" because it can be ANYTHING that your husband wants to belittle, criticize or control. If the dishes were clean, he'd flip on somehting else.
When he snaps his fingers and says "come here" and you say "no" he doesn't like it. He wants what he wants; when he wants it. You saying "but I am doing exactly what you asked me to do, so I will be a minute" makes not difference to him - he wants your full and immediate attention, NOW. So, he belittles you, again. "Why bother, you don't have to do the dishes anyway?" That's a double whammy - he gets to judge you and criticize you for not giving him your full and immediate attention - AND he gets to rub it in that he is the one stuck doing the dishes, as a dig. Again, it can be ANYTHING. It's not about the dishes. And he's certainly not saying he's doing the dishes to be supportive. He's annoyed and angry.
How did it leave you feeling? Like you missed a step but weren't sure where? Did you think, "Why am I being criticized for doing what he asked?" Did you try to move faster? Did you think hard on how you could have avoided getting him mad about rinsing it? Did you wish you dropped the pan and ran over to avoid the growing knot in your stomach and just rinsed the dish later? Befer he noticed and got mad at that? Did you feel caught in a double-bind between responding to him faster and not leaving the pan unrinsed?
Does that feel familiar?
Did you ever think he was WRONG for expecting you to come running? (Probably not.) Did you think you didn't need to explain yourself? (Probably not.) Did you think that you were glad he's cleaning the pan later? (Yeah, not not that either.)
Are you exhausted?
OK. Afterall, you are using words like ammunition. Ammunition: That means collecting little pieces of hard objects to load and hurle at you to hurt you and do damage. That's what it feels like. That's what you think he is doing. Collecting hard, objects to load and point at you. To hurt and do damage. Ammunition.
It's not about the dishes or your housework skills.
See, that's why I come here. I begin to feel confident that I'm seeing more clearly, and in reality I'm not. I really do need someone outside the situation to "smack me upside the head" so to speak.
I believed that he was trying to prove that he was better than me to prove that I needed more work than him. It didn't occur to me that he was using this as a control mechanism... Looking back on other incidents that we've had recently, I see how that fits. And how I allowed it to happen. I just justified it as, these are things that I should be doing anyway, so if it makes life happier at home when I do them, why not?
Can someone please bring me the "Dunce Cap"?
You should not even have to worry for a second about having to worry that your partner will use something as ammunition against you.
Do you not recognize how unhealthy that is? How horrible that is to even have to worry about at anytime in a relationship?
A relationship should not be a battle of wills, it should not involve one partner trying to one-up the other, belittle, use ammunition, or even trying to "mold" the other. It should not be a matter of trying to prove you are "better" than your other partner...ick! It should not involve one of you needing to walk on eggshells and trying to attain some sort of model of perfection that is NOT YOU in order to keep the peace and "gain love".
Not so new confession - I am a terrible housekeeper. Truly. Not that I can't cook or clean or anything. I can. It is just not a priority for me and I am a bit lazy about it. H is much more pro-active and detailed about it than I am. Still, he does not get on me about whether I did the dishes how he would do them, or whether I have done the laundry or not (even if all I was doing instead was watch The Bachelor as we don't even have kids). He did not marry me so he could have a maid. That is not to say I do not contribute to our home, I do and we actually share the load quite equally and we do talk about housework and so on and are happy with our arrangement. I just am not going to be winning any acclamations from Martha Stewart...ever. I am never going to be nominated the perfect homemaker of the year. And that is okay. You know what I do hear? I do hear appreciative compliments from my H when all I have done is empty the dishwasher or folded a load of laundry (and I share the same words of appreciation for what he does). I don't hear about all the things I did wrong, or did not do, etc. If he has a concern, we sit down and talk about it and figure out a new plan together. He does not start lobbing ammunition at me because I did not get the sparkle back into the plates like he would.
As others have said, this is really not about the dishes. The dishes, and whatever else, are just a symptom of all that is wrong here in your relationship. It is a point for him to pick and control. If you had a healthy relationship, how you did the dishes would be such a blip in the scheme of things.
If you don't have respect for each other as individuals, trust, acceptance, compassion, safety in vulnerability, and on and on...what DO you have?
Look, this is why you CANNOT go to counseling with an abuser, or anyone who has proven themselves to be emotionally manipulative and controlling in the past. It just does NOT work. They WILL use it to control and manipulate. They WILL it against you. They WILL try and manipulate the situation to make them good, and you all wrong. Any therapist worth their hourly fee will also know they CANNOT counsel an abuser/abusee together. Period.
Continue counseling, but you should find a new therapist and be going on your own.
Actually I printed it and have already posted it next to my keyboard (in a conspicuous place, since it's my work computer).
Even if the bolded part was the case, I have to ask you why on earth you want to work on your marriage with someone who wants to prove that he is better than you or is trying to control or manipulate you?
There are men out there who will not do this. I'm not sure if you don't know that or what, but really there are.
It's very rare that all of the problems in a relationship can be blamed solely on one person. In this case, I feel that if you share any of the blame, it's about 0.1%. The other 99.9% is on him. He's physically abusive and punches holes in the walls, and you don't rinse your dishes adequately before putting them in the sink. Do you see how lopsided that is? He KNOWS he is at fault here. He KNOWS he is a horrible, ugly person. And he will do everything he can to avoid admitting it, and more importantly, to prevent you from acknowledging it.
You mentioned earlier that you feel like every argument you've had recently has been set up. And you are correct. It does not matter what you do. He will always find a way to twist it around so that you are somehow the bad guy and he is justified in getting mad at you. He will always find a way to manufacture a fight out of thin air. He is not approaching this in good faith. Just as everyone warned you he would, he is using the whole process of counseling and working things out to further manipulate you.
PLEASE just leave. He's not at heart a decent guy who just doesn't know how to express his emotions appropriately, or someone who is just inconsiderate sometimes. He's a sociopath who knows exactly what he's doing, and he chose to be with you because he saw an easy target. Everything he does is deliberately designed to hurt you. You can fix minor personality flaws with counseling, but you can't fix evil. Every minute you stay is just more ammunition for him. Get out while you can.
When I typed my initial post about him using "The Dishes" as a way to gain control I almost said, "Think about this with an open mind - My guess is you'll find more examples."
Don't be too hard on yourself with the "Should have seen it," and "Let it happen." You're seeing it NOW, and you're inclined NOW to do something about it. And you can do something about it.
Good luck to you - I hope you're able to talk honestly about some of these issues in therapy.