September 2009 Weddings
Dear Community,
Our tech team has launched updates to The Nest today. As a result of these updates, members of the Nest Community will need to change their password in order to continue participating in the community. In addition, The Nest community member's avatars will be replaced with generic default avatars. If you wish to revert to your original avatar, you will need to re-upload it via The Nest.
If you have questions about this, please email help@theknot.com.
Thank you.
Note: This only affects The Nest's community members and will not affect members on The Bump or The Knot.
Our tech team has launched updates to The Nest today. As a result of these updates, members of the Nest Community will need to change their password in order to continue participating in the community. In addition, The Nest community member's avatars will be replaced with generic default avatars. If you wish to revert to your original avatar, you will need to re-upload it via The Nest.
If you have questions about this, please email help@theknot.com.
Thank you.
Note: This only affects The Nest's community members and will not affect members on The Bump or The Knot.
can we have a serious discussion?
... about gender semantics?
all SW2B comments aside, we all said this could be a good discussion. so lets...
prior to yesterday did you realize there was a difference between the terms "sex" and "gender"?
do you make a conscious effort to use these terms correctly?
if not, why? (you never thought about it, it doesnt matter, you didnt know, etc.)
do you think that misuse of these terms can lead to ignorance and violence?
how do you feel about gender identity issues?
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Re: can we have a serious discussion?
I know some people were pretty adverse to the idea about gender being fluid, but we all have very different ideas about what it means to be a woman. I know there are days that I love getting all girlied up in heels and bling and other days where I feel more like jeans, a t-shirt and a baseball cap. So I very much believe that gender is fluid, as is sexuality. We don't all fit in perfect little boxes and categories, everything is on a spectrum.
I think there are times when the difference between sex and gender is very important and using the terms correctly is very important. For example, when referring to someone as transsexual versus transgendered. These are two very different things and using the wrong term could be very offensive.
I don't really think that misusing semantics alone can necessarily lead to violence, but I kind of understand what she was getting at. Ignorance in general can very much lead to violence. The more we know about this kind fo stuff (and LGTBQ information in general), the less ignorant society is as a whole. And let's face it, society these days is pretty ignorant to a lot of things. And not just regarding gender issues, but with bulling, mental health, the criminal justice system, sexual identity issues, the list goes on pretty far.
prior to yesterday did you realize there was a difference between the terms "sex" and "gender"? Yes.
do you make a conscious effort to use these terms correctly? if not, why? (you never thought about it, it doesnt matter, you didnt know, etc.) "correctly" is relative. a majority of the population uses the two terms interchangeably in reference to the sexual physiology of an organism predetermined by its chromosomes. Does this make it right? Not necessarily. But it's not meant to be insulting either.
do you think that misuse of these terms can lead to ignorance and violence? Not at all. I personally believe that, when the terms are used interchangeably, there is no harm meant whatsoever. It's not derogatory... it's slang.
how do you feel about gender identity issues? They exist. I know a few transgendered individuals personally. I know what they've gone through.
updated 10.03.12
I never finished college and I only took Psych 101. This was never covered, so take what I have to say with a grain of salt.
prior to yesterday did you realize there was a difference between the terms "sex" and "gender"? No, I didn't realize there was a difference, but I guess I have always said gender myself when talking about being a boy or a girl.
do you make a conscious effort to use these terms correctly? no
if not, why? (you never thought about it, it doesnt matter, you didnt know, etc.) never realized there was a big difference
do you think that misuse of these terms can lead to ignorance and violence? No. Most people I think use them to describe both being a male/female physically and mentaly/emotionally, so I don't see the big deal. (again dumb non college grad speaking) People are going to hate no matter if they know the correct terminology or not. People suck.
how do you feel about gender identity issues? I don't really have feelings about it. I think that people should do what makes them happy and if that means living or becoming the opposite sex/gender, thats fine with me.
prior to yesterday did you realize there was a difference between the terms "sex" and "gender"?
Yes. But it is actually sex and gender identity- the sex and gender difference is mostly semantic. I have Transgendered friends and acquaintances and none of them take any offense to the "gender identity" language.
do you make a conscious effort to use these terms correctly?
Yes, but truthfully it is more using the proper pronouns and gender identity sensitive language than it is calling sex or gender exactly the right thing.
if not, why? (you never thought about it, it doesnt matter, you didnt know, etc.)
n/a
do you think that misuse of these terms can lead to ignorance and violence?
I do think they can lead towards ignorance and violence, but only if someone is willfully misusing the terms. I don't believe that someone is going to get raped on a pre-op table or anything like that. I think that most people in the t/g community actually go to doctors who are sensitive to their needs, just like any other person goes to a specific kind of doctor who they relate to well, so I feel like those are the kind of "ripped from the headlines" tragic but unrealistic circumstances that happen once kind of things that are non-exemplary of the actual treatment or sensitivity to the community that is generally the case.
how do you feel about gender identity issues?
I am sensitive to them, and they make for an interesting topic of discussion, but they probably are not as severe as some people made them out to be. Obviously, to those that they affect, it is extremely significant to have sensitive language, the appropriate pronouns, gender sensitive restrooms and/ or housing if relevant. And I think those accommodations should be made without question.
Stand up for something you believe in.
leslie- dont feel bad, and youre certainly not stupid for not having graduated college. my answers are fairly similar to yours and i have a college degree.
i never really thought about it. the fact that there is a difference makes perfect sense to me, but i dont know any transgender or transsexual people (aside from my parents neighbor who we dont associate with but that has nothing to do with their gender) so i dont think i've ever been in a situation where i needed to be sensitive in my use of the words.
to me, they are interchangeable and that is primarily due to not being exposed to the transgender or transsexual community so i would comfortably say that prior to this i have been ignorant about it.
i dont really think misusing the words when referring to an ultrasound regarding the sex of your child is detrimental to society but i see how it could be offensive when used in the presence of someone affected by gender identity.
as far as sexuality being fluid, i guess i havent thought of it in the way Nooner explained. to me, im a girl. ive always been a female and i will always be female but i see nooner's point that sometimes i lack feminine characteristics.
*shrug* much like leslie, i just never really thought about it. but i dont think that (at least in my case) my ignorance would lead to violence. being accidentally offensive? sure.
Antoine Dodson.
updated 10.03.12
I love both him and her.
I took a philosophies of feminism class in undergrad, as for a while i was a philosophy minor. that was probably the first time this concept was introduced to me.
I'm going to be honest when I say that the topic in general is something I dont discuss on a regular basis as I've never met or even heard of (other than news/books/movies) someone going through this.
I do make a conscious effort to use the terms correctly, just because I dont know why I would want to use the wrong word when i know the right one in any situation. I dont know that I believe misuse of the terms can lead to violence or ignorance. But I do think that ignorance + intolerance leads to violence.
As far as how I feel about it, well, I am definitely sensitive in that I wouldnt want to hurt anyone's feelings by what I said. I dont believe bullying in any case is acceptable, and I dont think anyone such as myself can judge someone with gender identity issues (or any other issues for that matter).
prior to yesterday did you realize there was a difference between the terms "sex" and "gender"? Yes.
do you make a conscious effort to use these terms correctly? I don't know that I make a conscious effort, it just comes naturally because I am familiar with both terms and the differences between them.
do you think that misuse of these terms can lead to ignorance and violence? I think there's a difference between using the two terms interchangeably to mean the same thing (like asking a pregnant person if they're finding out the sex/gender of their baby), and using the concept of thinking the two terms are synonymous to attack someone else or dispute their own self-concept (like telling a transgendered person that since they have a penis, there's no way they can view themselves as female). Or refusing to call someone "he" who is transgendered and living as a man because you "know" that they're "really" a girl.
how do you feel about gender identity issues? I grew up with a friend who, in high school, decided she was a lesbian. After high school she figured out she was really transgendered, changed her name to Noah and has lived as a man for almost 10 years. I am proud of him for feeling comfortable enough in his identity to do what feels right, even if it's a little odd for me to look back at "girl" pictures of him in Jr. High and high school. I think gender is not a black and white issue and people need to be able to live in a way that they feel comfortable in their own skin.
Congrats to both my TTC buddies, Amberley18 and sb2006 on their beautiful babies!
do you make a conscious effort to use these terms correctly? -- No, I wouldn't say that I make a conscious effort.
if not, why? (you never thought about it, it doesnt matter, you didnt know, etc.) -- I just never thought about it being potentially offensive to someone. I still don't think that anyone would really get offended over using the terms interchangeably.
do you think that misuse of these terms can lead to ignorance and violence? -- No, I don't think it's the misuse of the terms that leads to such things. Rather, it's a lack of understanding about the transsexual or transgendered communities. For example, I recently read an article about a 6 year old girl, Hailey, who was born as a boy named Harry. Can you imagine being that young and knowing that you were not born in the body that you were meant to have? However, the comments on the article only showed how ignorant people can be regarding this subject. Saying that the parents were wrong for letting the child wear girl's clothes and grow his hair long. That it was a phase and he would grow out of it if the parent's would just put their foot down. It made me wonder how many people there are out there who would be the opposite gender if it weren't for their parents.
how do you feel about gender identity issues? -- I definitely think they exist, and like Nooner pointed out, gender and sexuality are fluid things. I think the world would be a better place if everyone would just let everyone else do whatever feels right to them.
i said SERIOUS discussions ladies. tsk tsk.
but now i wonder, is that why he was so concerned about the rapist rapin errbody up in hurr?
GAH.
Did they every catch the guy that tried raping his sister?
Dx: Hashimoto's Hypothyroidism After 2 years TTC & failed IUs,we have our IVF baby born 9/24/11
LO#2 aka 'Miracle Baby' Orig. EDD= 9/28 EDD moved to 10/3/13
"Most of the important things in the world have been accomplished by people who have kept on trying when there seemed to be no hope at all." -- Dale Carnegie
"Our greatest weakness lies in giving up. The most certain way to succeed is always to try just one more time." --Thomas A. Edison
I dunno, but probably after all the "You are so dumb!" taunts.
I don't think they did. In an interview he did on Tosh.0 for his Web Redemption, Antoine said he got so caught up in his 15 minutes of fame that he let the rapist-hunting fall by the wayside...
updated 10.03.12
Most of my feelings on this issue come from when I started college. In high school (an all-girl's school), there are some lesbians, but they weren't really talked about, it was just something that was, like oh that girl has glasses, oh that girl's from Florida, oh that girl's a lesbian. I realize now how unusual that was for our society, but then, it was an unusual school. It was kind of a bigger deal in college (a women's college), in that people were proud to not follow traditional roles and welcomed questioning the norm. There were also a number of transgendered students, and that wasn't something I was used to, so I'm glad I was introduced to them in the environment of my college, which was very accepting of everyone.
I don't really use "gender" and "sex", except talking about the sex of a newborn/soon-to-be-born baby. I sometimes use "gender" when I mean XX vs XY, because I know some people still regard "sex" as a dirty word. I think this can lead to a lot of ignorance, but I let it go, some people aren't worth offending because they're not going to get it anyway. I'm mostly talking about my grandmother's generation. People of other generations who misuse the words (like many of my friends) often don't mean any harm by it, although I do see that this could eventually lead to problems.
Regarding gender identity issues: I am very thankful that I know who I am, a female and a woman. I actively thank god that I'm secure in this, and that I don't have to fight against the norms of society to be who I am meant to be. I try to support people who do have to fight against society to be who they are, because I regret so much that things are still hard for them. The only people who don't look at me weird for expressing these feelings are my lesbian and gay friends, none of my straight friends from co-ed colleges get my feelings on this, probably because they don't personally know any transgendered individuals.
tdmd took the words right out of my mouth. And I don't really want to retype almost verbatim what she said.
I just want to add that IMHO, I don't think the misuse/interchanging of "sex" and "gender" are that detrimental to society. I was raised to treat others the way you wish to be treated, regardless of sex/gender/race/religion/etc. So, if you (the general you) are a transgendered individual and introduce yourself as a He or a She, that is I how I refer to you. I house sit for a gay couple and never once have I even mentioned anything about their sexuality. So it's hard for me to grasp the idea that using sex/gender incorrectly is offensive because I don't view the world in black and white, he and she, christian and pagan. We're all people with the same rights and we all deserve to be treated as such.
I just wanted to say that I never meant college had anything to do with this!
I only mentioned college when everyone jumped on me for assuming that everyone knew about this issue. College =/= intelligent.