August 2009 Weddings
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St. Patty's Day
So what is this holiday about exactly (besides drinking)?
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Re: St. Patty's Day
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_Patrick's_Day
....and don't forget the cornbeef, cabbage, and red potatoes
BFP#1 11.2.10 | EDD 7.9.11 | HB 7w2d & 8w4d | missed M/C 11w2d | D&E 12.21.10
FSH at 14.5 - 4.21.11 | CCCT - (CD3 8.8,CD10 12.2)| dx w/ DOR @ 28 yrs old
IUI#1 + clomid 8.29.11 (our anniversary)
BFP#2 9.10.11 | EDD 5.21.12 | beta 1 @ 14dpi:232 | beta 2 @17dpi:703 | beta 3 @24dpi:7,174
Baby A HB of 142(7w), 161(8w), 164(9w) | Baby B no HB, Vanishing Twin
I've always thought of it as an excuse to get drunk!
My students and I were talking about it before the break, and I thought their perspective was pretty interesting. A good 70% of my school are Chinese-Canadian (most of the kids are, themselves immigrants) and another 20% or so are Greek-Canadian. Almost all of these kids go to Saturday language classes for their parents' first language. So, they were telling me they find it kind of odd that people who really have no emotional tie to the country except maybe a great-grandparent who emigrated from Ireland get all wrapped up in it (or, at least, get wrapped up in the superficiality of wearing green, drinking beer and eating a stereotypical menu). The fact that the vast majority of people who claim to be Irish-Canadian can't speak Irish, nor know anyone who speaks the language was a particular sticking point for them. Another kid pointed out that having a great-grandparent born somewhere doesn't make you part of that culture; participation makes you part of that culture.
It made for an interesting class discussion, that's for sure.
Alyson & Phil | Planning Bio | Married Bio!
Dates & Quinces Blog
In regards to the language, I think Gaelic is spoken by very few in Ireland. I don't think it's a dead language yet, but I know it's not the 1st language of the Irish from my understanding...
I also want to point out I think different areas celebrate differently. Philadelphia and Boston are huge Irish cities. Majority of our immigrants in (philly) were either Irish or Italian, so there are tons of celebrations/parties/parades, etc here. But since I've always lived in this area, I'm not sure what other cities really do....
BFP#1 11.2.10 | EDD 7.9.11 | HB 7w2d & 8w4d | missed M/C 11w2d | D&E 12.21.10
FSH at 14.5 - 4.21.11 | CCCT - (CD3 8.8,CD10 12.2)| dx w/ DOR @ 28 yrs old
IUI#1 + clomid 8.29.11 (our anniversary)
BFP#2 9.10.11 | EDD 5.21.12 | beta 1 @ 14dpi:232 | beta 2 @17dpi:703 | beta 3 @24dpi:7,174
Baby A HB of 142(7w), 161(8w), 164(9w) | Baby B no HB, Vanishing Twin
kaesha, that's really interesting, the whole participation makes you a part thing.
Also, Derek wished my Happy St. Patrick's Day in gaelic today. Also, I feel like I should be watching Boondock Saints.
We'll just not tell H about this little fact, m'kay?
also... (I was thinking about this more)... (and I swear I'm not being combative, just bringing up other discussion points for sake of conversation)....
Couldn't you compare St.Patrick's celebrations in the US and Canada similar to Christmas or other holidays... Meaning, that thousands (millions) celebrate Christmas or Easter and they are not in fact Christians. But to them, it's just a holiday about tradition and has customs associated with it. While people who celebrate might not have any ties to St.Patrick or Ireland, they still enjoy the traditions (wearing green, displaying shamrocks, eating cabbage, drinking, etc).... Could that be considered the same as someone who isn't religious putting up a Christmas tree??
Or Valentines... wearing red, buying chocolates & flowers, etc. Granted we all know its a Hallmark holiday, but it does have a history even we celebrate the 'superficiality' of the day...
sorry if the devil's advocate act is annoying.... just find this interesting.
BFP#1 11.2.10 | EDD 7.9.11 | HB 7w2d & 8w4d | missed M/C 11w2d | D&E 12.21.10
FSH at 14.5 - 4.21.11 | CCCT - (CD3 8.8,CD10 12.2)| dx w/ DOR @ 28 yrs old
IUI#1 + clomid 8.29.11 (our anniversary)
BFP#2 9.10.11 | EDD 5.21.12 | beta 1 @ 14dpi:232 | beta 2 @17dpi:703 | beta 3 @24dpi:7,174
Baby A HB of 142(7w), 161(8w), 164(9w) | Baby B no HB, Vanishing Twin
EHayes, you are correct regarding Gaelic. Kyle's best friend (B) is an Irish citizen. He was born their and moved to the US when he was 5ish. All of his extended family still lives in Ireland and they speak primarily English. I don't think B knows any Gaelic at all. We enjoy celebrating with their family around the holiday.
Also, my mom grew up in Chicago which also hosts many celebrations. Most notably they die the Chicago river green every year. They had their parade over the weekend so it was still green while I was up there this week. This is a wikipedia photo, not anything that I took while I was up there.
we have big parades in Baltimore and DC too, but I don't know how much of the city actually has Irish heritage. I know that most of my friends just use it as an excuse to get wastey faced, so good for them! haha. Sean's grandfather came over from Ireland, and my great-grandfather did as well, but we don't celebrate like crazy or anything. we do Irish stuff all year long.
TTC since October 2010 | BFP 12/29/11 | RRQ BORN 08/26/12
planned | married | blogged
Out of curiosity, when did the Irish diaspora really happen to the US? And it's true, Irish as a subset of Gaelic (it's a particular version) isn't widely spoken many places anymore.
When the tradition of celebrating it started, it made a lot more sense. Immigrants were celebrating their homeland. But, 150 years later, what are the descendants actually celebrating? How many go beyond a superficial level? When I taught ESL, our department would always tell our immigrant students that to reduce a culture down to merely food, music and dance is to do it a disservice.
I had one student make a point that it's a culture a group white people can pull out their pockets when it suits them, but that if they don't live it all the time, it's not their culture. It was interesting to see how heated they got about it, especially in comparison to the way their cultural heritage is treated.
Alyson & Phil | Planning Bio | Married Bio!
Dates & Quinces Blog
On our recent trip to Ireland we met very few people that spoke Gaelic or even had parents that spoke it. We actually asked about it because the Gaelic writing is in various places but not many people even knew what the phrases meant.
I do like the point that participating in a culture is what makes you a part of it and not just having grandparents born there. That is a very good point.
However, I really don't see anything wrong with people celebrating St. Patrick's Day or any other day that they find special. Yeah, for some it may just be an excuse to drink or wear their tacky, "kiss me I'm Irish" shirt, but oh well. My old roommate used to celebrate NFL Draft day, complete with special jersey and rituals. Not my thing, but I enjoy these types of celebratory and festive holidays. They're fun as long as things don't get out of control.
There was a huge debacle last year, when the city tried to cancel the St. Patty's day parade due to lack of funding. The Irish neighborhoods found back and won. B and I don't usually do anything for St. Patty's since neither one of us is remotely Irish or Catholic.
Ehayes, I totally agree with you regarding the commercialization and Americanization of certain religious holidays. I absolutely love Christmas, even though I don't celebrate it and would seriously consider getting a tree and decorating my house if it didn't seem like so much work (and if my family wouldn't think I went off the deep end).
From the wiki article you posted, it looks like St. Patty's day was originally a religious celebration. So, for another ignorant question: do Catholics celebrate all the patron saints? I don't even know how many there are.
personally, I think it's the fact the people continue to carry on these traditions that makes them special, whether they are a part of that culture or not. I'm not Christian, but I celebrate Christmas... just not in a religious way. I was never raised to celebrate in that manner, but I still have traditions that I follow and want to carry on.
I think the same goes for St. Patty's in which you just continue to pass on what you grew up with. even though I'm not fresh off the boat Irish or anything, I still celebrate where my family came from. if there were American Indian holidays that were acknowledged in my home growing up, I would celebrate them as well.
TTC since October 2010 | BFP 12/29/11 | RRQ BORN 08/26/12
planned | married | blogged
What exactly is your definition of culture? Language can't really be used in this example, as it's not widely used even in Ireland.
And to the statement made about "a culture a group white people can pull out their pockets when it suits them" - that is incredibly offensive and I hope that, as that student's teacher, you explained how blanket statements are very dangerous. There are people who embrace their heritage every day. In a society where you simply check "white," remembering where your ancestors came from creates a multi-cultural individual.
LOL! Yes you could, and I totally do think it's similar. I've gone to religious schools (Catholic and Jewish) and abstained from participation in rituals because I'm neither. It was a point raised in my classroom too.
And you're not being annoying at all. I think the whole concept is fascinating.
The hyphenated cultural identity is an interesting one to negotiate. If one went back to the country that your parents/grandparents/great-grandparents came from, how foreign would it be for you? Would you be able to negotiate the social mores? Would you be able to speak about the politics? History?
You're indoctrinated with the values of the people who raised you, but more importantly, the school system you came out of and the friends you have. I probably get a good 50 essays a year about kids going back to China for a month and not feeling comfortable with the language or who they are there. They can't identify with that culture anymore, but they also can't escape it either. So, I think that's where a lot of our conversation came from. They live the hyphen every day. Their argument really is that most people are too far removed from immigration to know what it's genuinely like to have the right to call themselves part of that culture.
Neptoon - the Catholics have a saint for every day and most countries have a saint too. The English have St. George, the Welsh, St. David, and on and on and on...
Alyson & Phil | Planning Bio | Married Bio!
Dates & Quinces Blog
Well, as much as I love judging and justifying what kind of a teacher I am, I'm going out grocery shopping in a few minutes, so I'm going to keep this short.
No, I didn't tell the student she were being offensive. I did ask her why she felt that way and if she could clarify her thoughts. So we talked about what she'd said versus what she meant. And that goes back to being a visible minority/hyphenated identity stuff that I mentioned in the last post. So, what was she really trying to get at? That, as a visible minority, people will always assume that she's from elsewhere, that she'll always have to answer questions like "Where are you from?" Toronto will never be enough of an answer that she can give. She feels that does not have the luxury of just being Canadian, that she'll always be Chinese-Canadian.
If the goal of education is, say, to educate, then working kids through the process of understanding why they believe what they believe is far more important than slamming them with the "that's inappropriate", IMHO. That teaches them nothing except to not say that kind of stuff in front of you.
Oh, and at it's most basic, my imperfect definition of culture is it is the social mores and values you hold to be important and by which you live your life. But in all fairness, I don't think it's easy to give a blanket definition of culture any more than it is to give a blanket definition of religion. Yes, music, dance, food and language (although you can still see social values in how language develops) are expressions of culture, but cannot on their own stand for it.
If you like, and if the site isn't blocked to people who aren't TDSB teachers, I can send you a link to a bunch of educational stuff related to reducing culture down to those visible expressions.
But not right now, I have grocery shopping to do.
Alyson & Phil | Planning Bio | Married Bio!
Dates & Quinces Blog
Not sure where I judged your teaching abilities. And I'm not sure where I said to slam the student with the "that's inappropriate" comment. I think that you could still have a dialogue all the while being mindful of blanket statements. I hate the idea of fostering stereotypes and misconceptions.
I completely agree with you that social mores and values are a part of culture. But if those are indoctrinated early on, wouldn't they be difficult to discern? How do I know that my work ethic isn't a direct correlation to my ancestors working on the railroad? To me, a funeral wake takes place at someone's home, and it's filled with food and drinks, and laughter mixed with tears. It wasn't until I moved away from home that I realized that is an "Irish" thing, that not everyone does. If that value is passed on, it becomes less about being "Irish" and more about a family value/norm. To your student, I would be playing my "Irish Card," but to me, that is simply my life.
this. I don't see why it matters if you are 100% Irish or .04% Irish - if you were brought up celebrating Irish tradition, you should continue to do so, because the only thing that keeps tradition going is the promise that it will be carried from one generation to the next. the fact that St. Patrick's Day is still being celebrated to this day is proof of that, obviously.
if we decided that our ancestors' original celebrations just didn't coincide with modern society anymore, and that we no longer have the "right" to celebrate them because we aren't personally connected to the country of origin, we'd be without holidays all together, including Thanksgiving, Christmas, . and more importantly, we would read about the traditions of Ireland (which yes, I'm aware, don't include shamrocks and green beer) in textbooks alone instead of experiencing them for ourselves and being proud of where we came from.
if I were to come upon a place in Ireland where the social mores and language were authentic, I would be lost, for sure... as would a LOT of people traveling to foreign countries without extensive research into the culture. that doesn't take away my right to celebrate the fact that someone long ago who was connected to my family tree was of Irish descent.
TTC since October 2010 | BFP 12/29/11 | RRQ BORN 08/26/12
planned | married | blogged
Sorry, we've got a district review coming next week which will involve a whole lot of people telling me "I hope you did this/this and this" with the implication afterword of being "and if you didn't, you suck as a human being and are a failure as a teacher". So, you inadvertently used the magic phrase that's pretty sensitive to me right now. If critiquing my classroom discipline wasn't what you intended, then I'm absolutely sorry for reading it that way.
I should have asked for clarification!
I think you're absolutely right in asking that question - how do we know if what we're doing comes from a family's tradition or whether it comes from society at large? And to extend further, how do you know your values don't come from how your family dealt with being an immigrant rather than from being from a particular place?
I don't think there's an easy answer for that. I'd argue that after a period of time those mores are no longer belong to your heritage, but rather are under a state of flux.
Similar to you, I didn't come into a better understanding of what my Canadianess looks like meant until I moved overseas. But, if you asked me to define exactly what that looks like, I would be hard pressed to explain it. If you'd asked me before I went away what my background is, I would have said British. My Mum was born on the Isle of Man and eventually both sides of my family go back there. But, in no way now would I identify myself as British - especially not after having married one. Is the country I live in built on British social mores and values, absolutely. Am I British? No way.
To be fair to my student, she wasn't saying anything about playing a race card. She was saying when you belong to the ethnic majority, you don't have to wear the hyphenated identity, that there are times when you get to choose which side of the hyphen you land. And, her frustration is totally valid and echoes something that's typical of most immigrants' experiences. Phil often says he finds it frustrating that he's no longer entirely English, but because he has an accent, he'll never be entirely Canadian either. But the minute he opens his mouth, his accent marks him as not-one-of-us. I, on the other hand, will never have that question asked of me in English speaking Canada.
If I can just go back to the beginning then and St. Patrick's Day, let me end with this. I am all for celebrating your heritage, I'm just not for mindless celebrations. If you're going to celebrate, I think it's important not to pay more than lip service to it, you know? If you're Irish-American/Irish-Canadian/Irish-Irish, go out there and figure out what that actually means to you, because I'm pretty sure it's more than getting drunk and flailing around to a failed jig once a year.
Thanks for engaging in this discussion guys, it's been really interesting.
Alyson & Phil | Planning Bio | Married Bio!
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