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ok, pets people (esp. bijou)
I was talking to Bijou about the issues we're having with our dog, boo. I posted a while back about some of them, but nothing really seemed to help.
Ok, back story. Boo is a 52 lb black lab-boxer mix. We got her from Homeward Bound rescue about 3.5 years ago. She's approximately 6 years old. When we adopted her, we were told she got car sick. No biggie.
Well, when we got her home, she not only got car sick, but she also had horrible diarrhea. The first thing we did was switch her food because the rescue had her on crappy Iams. On the recommendation of Katie K9 (where we did training), we tried the Fromm foods. These worked for a little while, and then the diarrhea returned. So we kept on trying things, and finally the only food that didn't give her diarrhea was the crappy pedigree from costco. We both hated feeding it to her, but it was literally the first food that didn't have her either puking or pooping all over the place.
Well, after about a year, she started puking up bile (this is the issue I posted about before). Most of the time this would happen after she'd refuse to eat for a day or two. She'd puke up the bile, and then go eat. This seemed to happen about once every 2 months or so.
A couple months ago, it started getting worse, she was puking up the bile once a week, and she would do it even when she'd eaten that morning/night. So, into the vet we went. The vet thought it was acid reflux, and put her on pepcid. That made the problem worse. She'd puke up bile almost daily, even when she'd eaten. So, when we had her in to get her teeth cleaned, I talked to the vet about it when they called with an update. They put her on the science diet i/d stuff (don't flame me, I honestly had NO idea this was a bad food until Anita's post last week). It seemed to work too. The switch started on 3/28. Just this past week, she's puked up bile 2 times again.
I'm at a total loss for what to do. We're going into the vet on Weds for a booster of her distemper, and I want to go in armed with more information than I've had before.
We can not do a raw diet. I know that might be suggested, but I just want to put it out there now that I'm not comfortable doing raw with young children at home (dd is almost 3, and we have #2 on the way).
edit to make clear: we didn't switch foods immediately each time. We gave her stomach time to adjust and watched to see if there was any sign at all that the new food was affecting her stools before trying something new.
Re: ok, pets people (esp. bijou)
Tired after a long morning of hiking and swimming.
Megaesophogus, allergies, empty stomachs (they've puked up bile because there's nothing in their stomach), acid reflux, Inflammatory Bowel Disease, I suppose I could keep going.
When we have a foster we talk about poop and puke a lot...
Have you tried probiotics? Snacks before bedtime? Snacks in the middle of the day?
Have you done a fecal sample within the last few months? Worms can manifest in weird ways...
If it is an empty stomach issue you could switch to feeding three times per day instead of two. That might help.
We have not tried probiotics, but we would be willing to. Bijou was talking to me about those at the GTG.
We hadn't been doing snacks because it had been a chore to get her to eat before as was. When the vet put her on this prescription food, we were told to not do any treats at all until we figured out what/if she was reacting to in her food.
We have not done a stool sample, but I'll bring one with me on Wednesday and ask that they check.
I don't know if it's an empty stomach issue or not...the last week her puking has been right away in the morning, but the issue prior to the new food would happen even between breakfast and dinner when she was eating.
is there any blood work I should ask them to run? When she had her teeth cleaned, we had them run the more extensive blood work because they had talked of doing that if the stomach problems continued. The vet said all the things they'd normally look at were normal (liver count, thyroid, etc).
yes, we would. Especially if we could just make a weeks worth of meals at a time for her. Is it very expensive though?
I make a week's worth at one time. My dog is 35 lbs and I put 5 lbs. ground chicken, 1 2/3 c. rice and 1 2/3 c. veggies in a crock pot and then freeze it in daily portions. That makes 1 week's worth of food and should give you an idea of what your cost would be. (I'm not even going to tell you what we spend because we use organic chicken from the farmer's market and really high, human quality supplements, some of which are specific to her health conditions).
You could get meat from Rainbow/Cub and spend way less or Woody's Pet Food Deli where it's precooked. http://www.woodyspetdeli.com/deli_menu. I've done that a few times and it's super convenient.
I went to Lake Harriet Vet for the diet stuff.
Tired after a long morning of hiking and swimming.
Blood work - honestly, I'm not sure.
We only found out that one dog had megaesophogus because he would puke within an hour of eating, in the middle of the night, all the freakin' time. And it's only diagnosed by x-ray (as far as I know).
For treats - you could still use the dog food you're feeding just to keep something in her stomach, that way it's the same food and nothing different. Dog's stomach acids are much more harsh (acidic) to have to digest foods, so maybe having a few bites of her dog food would help a bit every couple of hours.
Woody's Pet Food Deli sells probiotics, and one brand that I remember is Wysong, maybe? It couldn't hurt to try it for 2 - 3 weeks to see if there's improvement.
thanks guys! I'll look into probiotics for sure.
And if we switch her to something like woody's or cooking at home, how should be make that switch? I'm guessing cold turkey would be just as bad with that change as it is with brand changes.
When I switched, it was cold turkey because she was vomiting/had diarrhea on the regular food. She started on a super bland diet of a tiny amount of chicken to a larger amount rice (I don't remember the exact ratio the vet told me to use). Over the course of a couple weeks, I increased the chicken and decreased the rice and added in veggies slowly.
Tired after a long morning of hiking and swimming.
If you do home cooked just go cold turkey, our boys don't notice a difference. They've been on cooked hamburger and Rice for 2.5 weeks now because of diarreaha, and probiotics as well as an anti diarreaha medication.
One of our boys has a grain allergy and the other got into cat food while we were in Colorado so that's why they're sick again. You could look into that, because all the foods you've had the dog on have been heavy in the grain aspect??
so rice is ok, even with a grain allergy? I was thinking we'd almost have to go potato because of that.
And, this may be a stupid question, but how should I cook the hamburger and/or chicken? When we brown beef we use oil and stuff, and I'm guessing that's a no-no.
also, where can I look for information on how much to feed her? I don't want to starve her accidentally, and she's a very lazy dog (especially for her breeds), and I don't want to overfeed her either.
My dog had a similar issue recently caused by a bacterial imbalance in her large intestine. It came on very suddenly, though - not sure if it's the same issue as your pup.
She was on antibiotics for three weeks and it took a good month or so for her to get back to 100%.
They did some sort of screen stool test to figure out what was wrong.
margaritas in mexico
I guess I never really thought about the rice, our guys don't have problems with rice, in part because they don't digest it, it comes out whole
. They have issues with wheat and corn which is in most dog foods. They're on grain free Innova Evo and that works for them....except right now they're still on hamburger.
We get the 93/7 and brown the meat, remove any excess juices with a strainer, and then cook the rice, mix it all together and put it in a rubbermaid container in the refridgerator. Our vet said they're supposed to get 1 1/2 cups a day each, and we've started mixing back their real food so they get a half scoop in the AM and a half scoop in the PM, they've both been maintaining weight but we're still struggling with looser then I'd like stools.
I cook it all in the crock pot with water or some homemade veggie broth if I'm feeling really ambitious. The vet told me I can use about a tsp. of oil per 1 lb. of meat to cook it on the stove but it's easier to throw it in the crock pot with the water.
The vet told me to keep an eye on her weight and adjust her food intake as necessary. My dog is 35 lbs. and 13 so she's not super active. I started with the ratio I gave you above for 5 days and she was gaining weight. I decreased the portions so it would last 7 days and that seems good - no gain, no loss. If we go hiking or are more active than usual, I feed her a little more. I can usually tell if she needs more food because she gets anxious and stalks the kitchen when we're cooking. This might give you an idea of how much to start off with your dog. If you go to Woody's, they have a formula for calculating based on body weight.
The other thing, and I'm not completely sure where I fall on this because I don't know enough about dog nutrition, is supplements. When I first thought about switching, I went to Woody's to get some info. They said with their ground meat, you don't need to add supplements because it's the meat, organs, bones, etc. and has all of the nutrients a dog needs. When I went to Lake Harriet, he said that's not necessarily true. I don't know what to think so I add a multi vitamin, calcium, and cod liver oil to be on the safe side. I also add other supplements for arthritis and another health issue.
Tired after a long morning of hiking and swimming.
Woody's Pet Food Deli is a great suggestion. They probably have a probiotic there too. Animal Essentials Plant Enzymes and Probiotics is what I would recommend. http://www.animalessentials.com/#products:63
The fecal sample test is a good suggestion too.
Do you have a copy of the bloodwork? May be something to bring in to Woody's when you go there. Were the amylase and lipase levels off at all?
After dealing with all of Bijou's kidney issues I personally wouldn't recommend home cooking for your dog unless you have a nutritionist evaluate the recipe. Some of the animal cookbooks out there make me shudder. I'd double check to make sure Woody's does this also. It's really important for dogs to have a 1:1 ratio of calcium (or higher if there are kidney issues) and phosphorus in their diet. The foods will naturally have phosphorus and you need to add the right amount of calcium back to balance out the phosphorus otherwise it will tax the kidneys and cause damage over time. That being said, we did home cook for Bijou for her last year (and it probably saved her life) but first had a nutritionist develop a recipe according to her health issues. We used www.monicasegal.com She also runs a Yahoo Group called K9 Kitchen where you can get a lot of good nutrition information. Might be helpful to post your question there. Monica Segal had us add lots of other vitamins like B6, Iron, Magnesium, etc and she wasn't a fan of using multivitamins. I think we paid about $250 for a consult (it might not be as expensive since Bijou had multiple issues) and she had really good communication with us over a few months adjusting the recipe several times depending on how Bijou was handling it.
If possible, I would also break her daily portion into several small meals throughout the day. If she has a digestion issue it will not be as hard on her tummy to digest so much food at once and will also help her tummy be a little calmer with food in it throughout the day in case she is vomiting from having an empty stomach.
Good luck and keep us posted!
Photo taken at 16 months old
What did vet think the cause of the pancreatitis was if not food? Stress, medication can also be factors but I think a diet change is still recommended since the pancreas is now being taxed. Did you get the results back immediately of your dog was positive for pancreatitis or did they run a Specific Pancreatitis test (can't think of the name right now) where they give you a number to tell you the level of the pancreatitis. They have to send the test off and takes a few days to receive the number. I don't think a lot of vets know as much as they should about pancreatitis or take it as seriously as they should (or at least the ones I saw). This is a good yahoo group on pancreatitis http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/dogpancreatitis/ although their home cooked recipes they recommend aren't balanced but are ok for short-term.
Our dog had pancreatitis in 2008 for the first time and the vet kind of blew us off. I wish I would have put our dog on a low fat diet at that point but didn't really get much guidance from our vet. The vet also didn't know how to read a simple label and factor out the moisture content from the nutritional analysis to get a true reading of what the total fat was- ended up being 32%. Way too high for a pancreatitis dog! It wasn't until the 3rd and 4th time she tested positive for pancreatitis that I started researching it more and realized she was on the completely wrong diet for a dog that has pancreatitis. I think this also contributed to her kidney issues because the pancreas was smoldering for a long time and caused other organ damage.
Photo taken at 16 months old
I don't have a copy now, but I'll ask for one on Weds. They should still have it all. From what the vet said, it sounded like they had run all of the tests they would for digestive issues and everything was normal. But I'll double check.
And I'll probably be printing off your post to bring with me to woody's. lol.
at least I have her trained to puke on the linoleum now. :P
Mine had pancreatitis a few years ago and that was definitely the food. They did do the test that took a few days to get back. I switched to low fat, things were fine and then about a year ago she wasn't able to tolerate any of the commercial foods I tried. So now she's on the chicken/rice/veggies diet. Last week, I stupidly gave her a small piece of a bully stick type thing and the little stinker swallowed almost the entire thing whole. Believe me, I am kicking myself. I got the go ahead from the vet to give her small amounts occasionally and I did not think she'd swallow it whole. The vet thinks that could be the cause since they're high fat and she had diarrhea shortly after that then gas and vomiting yesterday.
Although, I'm not sure if it's just pancreatitis. Her stomach is tender and bloated despite not having eaten since 5:00 yesterday and being on pain killers since 8:00 last night until about an hour ago. They didn't do the full pancreatitis test this time around, although maybe I should have pushed for it. When they ran the lab work this morning, all of her levels were back to normal.
Tired after a long morning of hiking and swimming.
I foster dogs and one dog had been abused and practically starved to death by the time we were able to save him, and his insides were very sensitive so we had to broil chicken and cook rice for him to eat until his stomach got stronger, maybe you could try that for a while and see if it helps at all.
Also is she outside without supervision? maybe she is eating some plants in you yard that make her sick, some dogs eat grass, not because they are sick but because they are missing nutrients in their food weird stuff!
Hope it gets better!