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NER - Career question
Okay, ladies. Sorry to bombard the board, but you all are way more intelligent and up on career topics that just about any board on the Knot, so you're stuck with me for awhile. 
I'm been floating around an idea with FI. I'm still going to keep looking for work (ANY work) because...well...I need to work, but if I don't find anything worthwhile specifically in the legal field by next fall, I'm thinking about applying to Ph.D. programs, most likely in sociology, though I'd love to get into SIPA...
My logic is that what I've always really wanted to do is research, so a sociology degree makes sense. It would give me a forbearance on student loans (one of the big worries about me not having a job right now), and would provide a reasonable stipend at the same time. It would also be a lot easier to start a family while working on a dissertation that while working full-time. And by the time I'm done with the dissertation, would-be children would *hopefully* be close to school age. I'd still have my JD in case I definitely did want to go to practice "boring" law some day, and I think most employers would understand the going back to school thing given the state of the current economy.
So...what do you think? Smart move, stupid move? I would need to start writing a statement of purposes ASAP (most "good" programs have a mid dec. application deadline), and I'd like to retake the GRE (when I took it to get into my MA program, I took it the day after my last 1L final - and my brain was pretty well fried by that point. I didn't do terribly, but I'm sure i could do better now.
Thoughts?
tia!
Re: NER - Career question
First, I would talk to a student loan lender. Credit is getting harder to get now, and if you already have a lot of SLs, they may be hestitant to give you more loans or give you a forbearance. I don't know how sociology PhDs work, are you sure you can get money for them?
Second, I don't think legal employers would be understanding of someone who got a PhD instead of working, even with the economy the way it is. So, unless you plan on using your PhD, I would not get one just to ride the bad economy out. I don't think it will help you and I don't think employers will be sympathetic. Do document review or insurance defense or whatever you can get - firms will be understanding of that, not a career change.
Third, I think doing it because you think it'll be easier to do while having kids than working is not a good reason to do it. I don't think dissertation writing with kids is going to be any easier than a full time job (hopefully BM will be in here to back me up) so I wouldn't do it for that reason. Plenty of people (lawyers, even) work and raise kids. It can be done. You might need to put it off an extra year or two to get to a comfortable level in your firm, but it can be done.
I don't want to discourage you, but the reasons you've laid out here don't sound like the best reasons to embark on a major endeavor. If this is something you are really passionate about, I might feel differently, but your reasons here don't suggest that.
Thanks for the honest answer, ESF.
I'm actually WAY more interested in research than litigation. I actually went to law school not because I wanted to be a lawyer, but because I was a human rights activist and all of the people at the UN and most of my professors told me that if I wanted to work in the human rights field, I needed to get my JD. And they were right (you do kind of hit a brick wall in HR without a JD), but being a litigator isn't something I'm interested in AT ALL, really. I've done it small scale with Legal Aid, and it was okay, but definitely not something I'm passionate about. I'd much rather be doing social science research than doing litigation. I don't mind mixing the two (which is why I was sooooo extremely interested in the position I discussed below - it was a legal research position), but those positions don't really exist without funding, and when the economy sucks, funding sucks, etc., etc., etc
You've given me a lot to think about, though...
(And fwiw, my original plan WAS to go get a PhD in Sociology...before I got side-tracked by all the "you have to go to law school!" talk)
ESF - a lot of our attorneys (mainly IP) have MS's and PhD's in addition to their JD's. Clearly a PhD in Physics or Chemistry is going to help you in Intellectual Property, but do people normally work outside their program for PhDs? I'm going to take a look in our attorney book to see if any of them have PhDs in non-science or business subjects...
As I understand it, most PhD programs are free tuition and you basically work for the school, so it wouldn't be a break from working, really, as you'd be teaching undergraduates and performing research.
Also like to throw out there that I really (as in REALLY) am not interested in firm work, unless it's small firms (a la the small civil rights firm I worked for in law school). Non profit is what I'm looking for, if that makes a difference....
ETA: Oh, and all of the programs I'm looking at won't accept you unless they can cover the cost of your tuition plus stipend (i.e. they won't accept you unless they think you're worth paying for).
College (especially graduate) enrollment increases when the economy is bad. People do not have a job so they make themselves more marketable.
With a JD, I would go for a PhD that would enhance the JD or vice versa; something like Poli Sci, Econ, or Business (Phd or DBA). It is a major endeavor and could go either way.
Forebearance should be easy enough to get on the SLs because they are generally automatically in forebearance if you are in school full-time. But as ESF said, credit is getting harder to get (and I'm sure you don't want more debt), so you would almost certainly have to have funding. (Plus, in PhD programs, if you aren't offered funding by the department, it generally means they don't want you that much.)
I will say that my H is getting his PhD in a social science, and it hasn't exactly been a cakewalk. He started grad school before me, but I still graduated from law school earlier. Assuming you want to stay in academia with your PhD, the job market can be really rough. I would talk to your H and see how committed he is to following your career. When I decided to marry the H, I knew that I was committing myself to moving almost anywhere he gets a job. The academic job search generally can't be limited to a specific geographical area.
I wouldn't discourage you from doing it. I might want to go back for a master's myself. But think very long and hard about what you want to do and whether it's worth another 4+ years of your life in school or whether you just aren't sure what else to do right now.
ESF said it much better than I could, but I would also be very wary of your plans. Stop and do some soul searching whether you really want to enter a doctoral program or simply want to avoid paying on those loans. I have a couple of friends who entered masters programs after law school primarily because they weren't satisfied with their job choices, and they are now under more financial pressure than ever and MUST take whatever job is available upon exiting their post-law studies.
Debt is absolutely worth it to obtain the degree you truly want, but is nothing to be taken lightly. You might find the additional debt burden from pursuing a doctoral degree will be an impediment to TTC even if pursuing your doctorate allows more time for child rearing than working in the law. Good luck and sorry to be a Debbie Downer. I can give a grim but honest assessment of the legal market right now, so I hope my perspective was of some use!
Since I reply slowly, what you want to actually do makes sense to have the JD & PhD
This is how your question sounds to me:
I just spent $50k I didn't have in order to get a better job. Well, now I can't get that job and I have all of this debt. And I don't really want that job, anyway, What I really want to do is direct. Oops, I mean research. So I thought I'd get get even deeper in debt to do something else that I think I will like better. Even though I spent years of my life and tens of thousands of dollars on something that seemed like a good idea at the time.
Yes, I'm being kind of flip with you, but it's kind of hard to take you seriously. It's like you are going to buy a Lexus when you already owe on a Mercedes.
I guess I need to make this a separate post so that people can see it. (And by see it, I mean that I did an ETA above, so I think people might have not actually SEEN it, not that they don't "get" it).
If you don't get money to get your Ph.D, you don't go get your Ph.D. It's that simple. To do otherwise would be a pretty stupid move for me (no offense to anyone currently paying for a graduate degree....). I didn't pay for my MA, I'm sure as hell not going to pay for a Ph.D.
ALL of the programs I'm looking at have a policy that they FULLY cover the cost of the program AND give you a living stipend. If they don't feel like you're worth it, they won't even admit you. So if no one feels like I'm worth admitting, I won't go, and therefore won't incur anymore debt.
And getting a forbearance on student loans isn't a REASON to go get a Ph.D, it's just a perk of being in school full-time again.
If you have the opportunity and can afford to so, then go for the Phd. You can do research if you want or maybe teach later on at the college level. A very sweet job when you have kiddies!
Have you thought about jobs that might not interest you but could be a good stepping stone into something that does?
Few people find the job they want right out of law school. I don't really know anyone that has. I think you are setting your expectations too high if you think that you will. Sorry to be blunt, but I've been frustrated with my job options now for a few years...during and since...so I know where you are coming from.
There's a lot of pro bono opportunities at a lot of firms. There are also a lot of things you can do that will get you to where you want to be in 5 years. I don't love doing labor union pension plan work right now, but I can see a path out of it into something I like, so I'm willing to suck it up and do it.
Have you looked into class action work? There's some interesting sociological stuff that comes out of that. This non-profit has more info on that:
http://www.impactfund.org/
You might have to be miserable and do litigation for a few years, but there's a fair amount of interesting work that it can lead to.
Anyway, I'm not trying to discourage you. But I do think you are limiting your options or focusing too much on trying to land the perfect job right now, and you should probably consider other options other than just more school, since that may not even get you where you want to be.
I'm confused about why you need a JD and a Sociology PhD to do human rights work.
By the way, there is a LOT more to legal work than litigation. You can be a practicing lawyer, even a law firm, and never touch litigation.
Sounds like you're getting some lawyer-specific advice, which is good.
I think you should really conside what you'd do if you'd gotten the dream job you really wanted. Would you have turned it down to get your PhD? Which would you rather do--work that dream job or go in a different direction?
We're in totally different fields so take this with a grain of salt, but... I have been mulling around the idea of grad school for years now. When I first graduated from college I couldn't get a job right away and it was a rude awakening. I considered going to grad school, even applied and took my GREs, but realized it was just because I didn't want to keep job hunting and getting rejected. I eventually found something mildly career related and was able to parlay that into a totally related job (where I am now). I'm still considering grad school, but I'm taking my time and figuring out if it's what I really want.
Either way, good luck!
Thanks, ESF.
No, seriously, I have been applying EVERYWHERE. As in EVERYWHERE that I think I have even a shot of getting into. Of course I've been most excited about the jobs I've mentioned here and the jobs in my field, but that doesn't mean that I haven't sent out hundreds of resumes to other jobs that I might personally find less exciting. I've been told more than once I'm overqualified for positions; I've also been told to reapply when the hiring freeze is over, or to reapply once I'm admitted.
Part of my problem is that I moved to NYC from Ohio, so I've got the non-local thing going for me. Part of my problem is that I was told I had a job before I graduated, so I stopped my search - and then they rescinded their offer, so I had to start up my search again much later in the game. And part of my problem with a lot of things like doc review is that I'm not licensed yet - still waiting on those results. And, actually, my biggest problem right now is the economy - I've honestly had FIVE companies/orgs I interviewed with later tell me that they can't fill the position because of a hiring freeze.
I'm open to doing doc review or any of those other similar legal jobs, but I can't even get those until after I'm admitted...and that's if they'll be hiring then (*fingers crossed*). I guess my point was that if I can't find a legal job before next fall, I'd rather be doing something useful that I actually like doing (read: working on a PhD) than working at some crappy department store or Sbux (if they're even hiring...).
Like I said, you've given me a lot to think about, and I won't be making any huge decisions right away. I'll probably still apply to places, and put off the decision as to whether to go until I find out if I've been accepted anywhere.
Okay, so forget the money aspect of what I said. You are talking about investing years of your life. You don't sound like you truly know what you want to do and you just spent years going down the wrong path, never realizing along the way, that a law degree won't take you where you want to go.
Before taking another journey, I'd take some time to figure out what's wrong with my compass and how where I endedup last time was so far off from where I thought it would be.
I completely feel your pain. This time last year, I still didn't have anything. Right before Christmas, I had a few interviews. I got an offer for a position that was more legal assistant-y and only paid $10/hour. I took it and kept looking. I stayed there 6 weeks, when I left to take that job. But I graduated in May and didn't start working at my crappy $10/hour job until mid-January.
Patience, grasshopper.
LaLa
Actually, I think the problem is that I know EXACTLY what I want to do.
I want to do women's human rights work. Which generally ends up being a mixture of law and social science research. Which is what I've been doing for the last however many years.
The problem for me currently is that these jobs are pretty much non-existent right now because of the crappy economy. I'm more than willing to do some other legal job until something, but there's nothing out there right now, at least not that I've been able to get. As I mentioned earlier, I've repeatedly been told that I'm either overqualified for a position (such as the legal asst position that a PP mentioned - been turned down for several of those because they're afraid that I'll skip as soon as something better comes along), or that I'm underqualified (meaning that I'm not yet licensed), or (and this is the big one right now) people simply aren't hiring right now. LOTS of hiring freezes.
I don't think that a Ph.D. is REQUIRED for what I want to do, but I don't necessarily know that it will be a hindrance, either. If I find something in the legal job market before next fall, I'd most likely just stick with that and bide my time until I could move into my chosen field. But if my choice is doing crappy retail work (and trust me, I know several fellow law school grads who are doing that right now) or getting a degree that might help me in the future, I'm definitely going to go for the degree (as long as it doesn't cost me anything
).
My sister is slogging her way through a cog sci PhD right now and it is brutal on her and her marriage. PhDs are no cake walk and I know you know this; I only mention it because I don't think it is something that should be done in order to avoid something else. I think you have to have a real passion for the subject matter to see the "forest through the trees." Having a real passion for your PhD subject matter, such that it is your purpose in life is probably what you need in your pocket right now. Your first goals can't be loan avoidance, can't find a job, or it's better on the future kids. If you feel that a sociological degree is truly your purpose in life, then I say go for it.
As to the issue of legal jobs, I wouldn't give up too easily. There are many avenues in the law that don't involve litigation. And there are many paths that can be taken in order to get to the "dream job." I would probably expand your universe of interesting work if HR jobs are hard to get right now with the goal of landing an HR job some time in the future. Have you looked for work with firms that specialize/have departments in international law? Your previous HR work might be a plus to someone looking for an int. law attorney. To that end, what about getting an LLM in international law if going back to school is that much of a priority?
I'm not going to criticize you for your contemplations. I know very, very, very well what you are going through. It is very scary to be a law grad right now in this economy...I just think you should hang in there. You are smart, in a good job market, young, no kids, etc. It will work out.
Best.
P.S. If you want to *** offline about this, feel free to PM me....I so know what you are feeling! Also, I can provide some PhD horror stories too if you'd like, courtesy of my sister. Ha!
I think this is the question you need to ask before you go any farther. Find people who have the jobs you want and set up informational interviews with them to find out what they think will be the most useful path for you to pursue.
And, don't get frustrated yet. I think things will get easier after you pass the bar (at least, that is what I am telling myself right now).
Gtown,
Yes. Graduated this year and am waiting on bar results.
LMW,
Thanks for the thoughts. I might take you up on that offer. As I've mentioned, this really is a last resort option (if I find something legal, I'll stay there), and FI and I have been treating it that way.
ESF,
Thanks again for your comments. I actually just was talking to a friend on gmail and said the same thing. Basically, "I need to find some non-profit legal peeps and ask them whether or not getting a PhD would hurt me in a future job search."
Everyone else,
Thanks for your questions and comments. If nothing else, you all are making sure that I wouldn't be walking into this blindly. What's the fun of asking a question if you can't be challenged?
I think this is an excellent idea. And for what it's worth, I think most legal non-profit employers care much more about your experience in a particular area rather than your degrees. If you spend this time doing additional HR work, even if it's pro-bono (there's always a need for pro-bono work, regardless of the state of the economy), that will probably be more helpful to you in the future. And I'm pretty sure you can get a loan forebearance if you do pro-bono work. There are some programs that will even pay your loans for you.
Have you set up an informationals with alums in your area? I know you don't live where you went to school, but there must be some in NY that you could talk to. They may know someone who knows someone...or something like that. Many law jobs are word of mouth and who you know type gigs.I found out about my job now b/c my husband ran into someone who put me in touch w/ someone....very random.
Good luck!
LMW,
I checked with my school's career office. We have exactly FIVE alums in the city (crazy, isn't it?). Me, a woman who graduated last year who currently works for a company that I applied to but got the hiring freeze line on, a woman who works at a legal aid office (no jobs, but she's keeping me in the loop), a woman who graduated with me and went into Big Law, and my FI (who isn't really an alum, but who went to my school for IL year, so they have him listed). There's soon to be a fifth, but he's already a friend of mine and is actually starting at FI's big firm, so no help there. ::le sigh::
I've also got my name out to anyone and everyone . Actually, there are quite a few jobs in DC right now, but FI is vetoing that.
Seriously, I'm out there looking, I'm just not finding anything. And I'm becoming increasingly frustrated.