September 2009 Weddings
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Our tech team has launched updates to The Nest today. As a result of these updates, members of the Nest Community will need to change their password in order to continue participating in the community. In addition, The Nest community member's avatars will be replaced with generic default avatars. If you wish to revert to your original avatar, you will need to re-upload it via The Nest.
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Note: This only affects The Nest's community members and will not affect members on The Bump or The Knot.
Saw this 2 times in the last 24 hours
So I figured we could talk about it.
http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2011/07/01/256823/pregnant-women-criminal-charges/
The article is about pregnant women who suffer miscarriages or stillbirths being criminally charged for several offenses (highest being murder of the fetus).
Thoughts?
Re: Saw this 2 times in the last 24 hours
I can sorta (and that's a BIG sorta) understand in cases of drug abuse where the child is stillborn or there is a miscarriage, but to continue with that opens up a really slippery slope to me. What about all the people who do drugs/drink while pregnant and DON'T lose their baby? Any consequences for them or only if the baby is lost?
Also, would this extend to women who don't take prenatal vitamins? What about women who get pregnant and don't get enough/the right kind of prenatal care and lose the baby?
And exactly how is it possible to prove that the miscarriage/stillbirth was natural? Is it like "here's a list of thing you could have done to kill your baby. No? You didn't do any of those? Then okay, it was natural."
Which to me goes against the whole innocent until proven guilty---it's like women who have suffered a severe loss will then be forced to prove their innocence while dealing with a very hard emotional/physical blow. My cousin had a miscarriage at 12 weeks and needed a D&C--I couldn't imagine going to the hospital for the D&C and then talking to the police right after to give your statement that you didn't purposefully force your own miscarriage.
I think it's pretty much a ludicrous idea.
I think this is a slippery slope as well. Without getting into if killing an unborn child is murder, I think charging someone with murder after a loss is terrible. It will prevent some from seeking prenatal care or substance abuse treatment which could save their life and save/improve the child's life. AL and MS have two of the highest rates of LBW, and they should be doing more to improve prenatal care.
In MA, if a child tests positive for substances it is a reportable offense and the parent can be charged with neglect and is often removed. In serious cases, a DA referral can be made for child endangerment. That is a more appropriate charge, IMO. I have worked with children born addicted to crack, heroin, and meth and it is the saddest thing I have seen. That is why I much prefer the feisty teens,
I think that this is ridiculous. Our criminal court systems are backed up enough with real criminals like murderers and rapists and child molesters; I'm not exactly sure what they're hoping to accomplish with this law except, as stated, push pregnant women with drug problems away from getting the help they need. Like Mel said, in IL if a baby is born drug exposed then the baby is taken from his/her mother and brought into our juvenile court system. If the baby dies due to mother's drug use it is tragic yes, but what is the benefit of criminally charging that woman? Do they think it's going to get women to stop doing drugs while pregnant? It's not, they're drug addicts whether pregnant or not and those women have to want to stop doing drugs; no law is going to make them stop since, uh, drugs are already illegal!
Overall, I think this is just another terrible step towards eliminating women's reproductive rights and I think it's disgusting. This may be an unpopular opinion but I sure as sh!t want the right to go get an abortion if I get raped and become pregnant and if I can't afford to go to a doctor you bet I want to have some place to go to get exams done to make sure I don't have breast, ovarian or any other kind of "female" cancer.
Here's an example of what can happen if laws like this remain in place and are instituted nationwide (warning sad and disturbing): we had an 11 year old girl brought into our system. The day she was brought in she was 8 months pregnant. Her 20 year old cousin had been continuously molesting and raping her and she became pregnant. Instead of reporting him to the police her family hid her away, not allowing her to go to school and moving from house to house so the truancy officers wouldn't find her. Eventually she was found and taken from her mother and brought into our system. The judge who's courtroom she was in had to go and ask the Public Guardian of the state of Illinois for permission to get this girl a late term abortion because if she remained pregnant and went into labor she was going to die. According to these new laws, it's better is she had remained pregnant because abortion is just not an option in any situation according to them.
:sigh: I'm going to stop now because it just pissed me off that these laws that are being passed are written mostly by people (men) who don't even know what it is like to have to deal something like that. /end rant
Law--I was going to quote you, but it would have just been too big. I totally agree with you and Mel. Like I said, there is a small bit of logic, but when things go well in theory, they very rarely go well when applied to the general populace. I agree that child endangerment and jail time for illegal drug use/substance abuse therapy would be a MUCH better way to deal with it than charging for murder.
I'm such a waffle when it comes to my personal beliefs about abortion. Part of me feels like it is killing a living being (but I'm not an "alive at conception" person---I think once there's a heartbeat and minimal brain function, the fetus is "alive."), but I also believe that there are a LOT of people that don't agree with that view and don't see abortion as killing a living being--they just see it as any other medical procedure, so who am I to tell them what to do with their body?? The only thing about abortion that I get really riled up about is when it is used as a form of BC. Seriously....go to the clinic and get the free pills. I don't understand why super pro-life groups don't agree with BC. I mean I get the religious reasons behind it, but it seems like cutting off their nose to spite their face. Way to drop the abortion rate? Give out more free BC!! Teach safe sex practices!!! It's okay to teach abstinence, however a 5 year old will break into the cookie jar before dinner whether mom tells him to wait or not--what makes people think that teenagers have better judgment when their hormones are running wild? Protection, people!!
I'm not in favor of late stage abortions unless there is the immediate threat to the mother---which is another reason I'm such a waffle. I think it's more of a grey area than people make it out to be. In the case you said, I would be in favor of getting the 11 year old victim of incest/molestation a late stage abortion.
And I also agree that it's a huge step against women's reproductive rights. And why is the woman the only one getting attacked like this? What about the dude that knocked her up in the first place?? It's in the news all the time about men wanting rights to the child the mother wants to abort (like, pretty much wanting the lady to incubate the kid and go through pregnancy because "it's my baby toooooooo!!") but if something were to go wrong, would he be punished if the baby didn't make it or mom didn't make it because he wanted her to go through with the pregnancy??
This whole thing opens up a giant can of worms that can't be simply fixed.