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is it time to use tough love yet?
It's been a while since I've posted but here's a quick recap:
My grandfather died in October, and my grandmother is full on in Sicilian mourning (aka not leaving the house, not eating, not cooking, not reading, basically just sits on the couch like a zombie). She was living in a 3 story house with him when he died. And just a month ago we took her out of the house WILLINGLY because she said she was afraid to be alone there, and wanted to sell it.
Well, after an arduous move, she now lives in an apartment in the 2 family house that she OWNS, and my mother lives right downstairs from her. She can see my mom 10 times a day or more, but also has her own space if she wants to be alone. She started doing yardwork, taking out the trash, and cooking once or twice. Overall it seemed like she was improving based on her actions.
BUT she SAYS she is completely miserable and feels like a prisoner now, and wants us to move her back to her house where she lived with my grandfather. She has become obsessed with the idea of moving back. We don't want to move her because she was miserable there and alone. She was not taking care of herself and we were all afraid of her being there alone. Not to mention, moving back wont' fix the problem of my grandfather being dead.
I've tried to reason with her and explain that this is better, this is also her home that she owns, her daughter is a flight of steps away if she needs or wants anything. She's not a "prisoner" she is free to go anywhere she wants but she chooses to be a shut in. She is playing a martyr, and it's getting old. We need her to make improvements or she will surely die if she doesn't start taking better care of herself. It's not that she is incapable, she's very sharp mentally, she's just old-world stubborn, and thinks she is supposed to act this way now that she's a widow.
My question to any advice givers is this: do we move her back to fulfill her wish even if we know she will continue to get worse? Or do we keep her near my mom, and go against her will for her own safety?
I can't help but see her as ungrateful for so many things. The apartment is beautiful, has lots of history there. She lived there with her husband for 20 years before moving to the bigger house. So it's not a new place. She doesn't see the blessings she has, like a daughter/son/grandchildren who love her. It's just so frustrating.
Re: is it time to use tough love yet?
I guess I'm upset because she literally slapped me in the face when I brought the doctor to check her out. She acts like she hates us all. It's very sad because we love her so much. She doesn't act like she appreciates our efforts at all. I'm even getting married in a month and she refuses to come to my wedding. It's difficult not to be hurt by her actions. She has turned away from all of us, but it's our job to make sure she is ok. It's a thankless job at the moment, but I know she's grieving.
I asked her "what about the other people in your life, me your kids your grandkids?" "Che mi interessa?" is what she said, which pretty much translates to "what do I care?". OUCH.
So she won't do therapy - is there someone outside of the family, though, that she trusts and respects? I ask in the light of trying to talk to her. if someone is there who isn't a part of the family, perhaps she would hear them more than she will if it's you or your mom talking to her.
I ask because we're dealing w/ some stuff w/ MIL. She's VERY negative w/ FIL. She discounts whatever he says, blows him off, gets angry at him, etc. Recently, he was telling DH how she always waits in the waiting room when he goes to see his therapist. The therapist has asked her to join them, and he (FIL) has even offered to let her talk to the therapist alone.
Oh, NO - she shuts down all of these options, says they are there for FIL, etc. Then DH very simply was like "I think you should go in next time" and her attitude changed. She was like "Really? You think so?".
Because it was someone other than FIL talking to her about it.
Don't know that she will next time, but even the fact that she opened up to the idea since it was coming from someone other than FIL was encouraging.
I just wonder if someone outside of the family can assist you in talking to her - the pros and cons of moving vs staying, how you all want to help her, but its better in teh apartment, etc. Not from the point of view to convince her in that exact moment, but to just talk to her and to get her thinking about it more seriously and to try and get her to stop reacting from a place of emotion (which is what I think she's doing).
~Benjamin Franklin
DS dx with celiac disease 5/28/10
Thank you for this ECB.
Your example of your MIL is a very good one. I think you are absolutely right. If we bring some outside people to visit her, then perhaps she will hear this advice with a new perspective. Happens to us all sometimes, right?!
Therapy is so out of the question for her, she almost sees it as sacreligious. But the people I confide in about this all seem to agree that moving her back to the house is a huge mistake. She is better off where she has contact with my mom, and also where (though she wont admit it) she has started making progress. She only wants to move back cause she thinks it will bring back my grandfather, which is obviously not gonna happen.
Seriously - stop it. Just shut up and stop it.
I feel horribly for your grandmother. To lose your spouse - your life partner and best friend for what was probably decades, I simply can't imagine how painful that would be, even 8 little months later.
And then to have your family around you treating you like you're stupid and can't decide for yourself what you want and need........that's got to be like salt in an already deep wound. I'd be closing down and trying to shut you all out too. Jesus, she's (JUSTIFIABLY) in mourning, not brain damaged.
Give the woman a break - she doesn't want to move back into her old house because she thinks it will magically bring her husband back from the dead. She probably DOES feel closer to him there, because that's the home that they shared and the memories of their life together brings her comfort. Being in a strange house with no emotional attachment to her probably makes her feel even more lonely, regardless of where your mother lives. For God's sake, let the woman live in the house that makes her feel better.
Instead of trying to bully her into seeking therapy and living the way that you all think that she should be living, do any of you concerned family members reach out to her in other ways? Offer to pick her up on Saturday to do your grocery shopping together? Go with her to church? Bring over dinner to eat with her during the week?
My Grandfather is dying of cancer. The one thing that is keeping him going right now is being able to live his life the way that he wants to, the way he was before his cancer got bad. We're doing everything that we can to help him do that. Give your grandmother the same respect, and stop treating her like a child.
I think you best and only option is to bring-in a priest. I can't imagine that old-world, Italien doesn't translate into some kind of interest/respect for a priest. Don't just get anybody. Lots of priests have social work and clinical training and certification, especially around grief. Try local colleges and parishes - focus on Jesuit and Fransicans or those with credentials.
And yes, as an adult, she has the right to choose where she lives. She owns both properties, it sounds like she can affors them. By denying her, you're just feeding into her pathology that she is trapped and without options.
She'll be back, we all know this. Just let it run it's course. And do try to move her back with some in-home care. Maybe someone from the parish that needs a little old lady to check-on for some wages. Someone who speaks italian and doesn't mind getting yelled at.
Maybride2:
Obviously you don't know the whole story w. my grandmother, how could you? My grandmother LITERALLY stands by the door asking my grandfather to come in. She LITERALLY thinks moving back to the house will make him come back. I wish I was kidding, but this is part of that "old world" superstitious thing I was talking about. I'm not being cold-hearted. I'm dealing with complete illogical thinking. And what's the craziest thing is that I believe she is serious. She actually thinks my grandfather will come back from the dead if she moves back and sets everything up the way it was. This to me is not normal. I don't think all women who lose their husbands do this type of thing. This is why she does need to speak to someone, because she is driving herself nuts.
Also, as I said, we didn't bring her to the apartment against her will. She wanted to move. Now she feels like she misses the house. So I guess we must jump each time she changes her mind? We DO offer to take her out shopping, take her even to the cemetary, etc. She refuses to do ANYTHING. We DO go there and eat with her...guess you didn't see the part about her not cooking for herself. Where do you think she gets her food? We have to bring her all of her food because she is CHOOSING to act like a child. She won't cook for herself, leave the house or do anything. So what choice do we have?
This. Your initial post didn't sound nearly that bad, but your follow-up makes it sound worse.
You know, if the family is truly worried that your grandmother has lost it and poses a danger to herself (by not caring for herself), it might be time to bring protective services in. It's awful if it comes down to that, but it might be the only option left if she's truly not in a healthy state of mind.
Thank you for your kind words re: my Grandpa. He's in Hospice and we're all just happy that he's finally getting the appropriate pain medication.
I get a lot of the superstition stuff and not to be cruel, but maybe you can trick her. Is there something she would think your grandfather did or would come back and do to show he was still around? My Aunt was convinced a fly at her husband's funeral was him coming back, because it was an irony in life that he thought flies were filthy. I still have moments when I see a fly and think of my uncle (yes, it is ridiculous) and I lol thinking of what my Aunt clung to during her grief. If this apartment was part of their early marriage is there a way for her to remember? Starting over is not what she is doing there, but going back and perhaps this is where he told her to wait for him.
Stubborn Italian women do not react well to tough love, they get meaner. Good luck and I hope she stays in the apartment.
eta: I should say Sicilian since they consider themselves that more than Italian
Thanks again everyone for all of your advice, and for helping me brainstorm.
Sorry I didn't make it clear earlier what the full situation was, but there's lots to it, obviously. I wouldn't have any problem moving her back to her house if it weren't for the fact that it really won't solve the problem. She won't get her love of her life back, and I fear she will actually get WORSE when she realizes that. Maybe you are right FMIL&MOB, if only there was something I could do to show her that his spirit is with her in the apartment too. She has a much better chance moving forward in the new environment, rather than going backwards. Change is always hard, and yes, there have been 2 major changes for her this year. Hopefully with time she comes around. We hate to deny her, but going back to the house is just not a real answer to the problem. She has to come around to accepting he is gone, and opening herself up to her other loved ones again.
Geez, Sicilian women can be super stubborn! And set in their superstitions!! lol! I just really miss my sweet and amazing grandmother. I hope one day she comes around. It's just so painful seeing her like this and feeling powerless to console her. I'm going to think of what to do to bring some semblance of "Nonno" back for her. She still has all of his belongings with her but it's not enough.
She is not choosing this, no more than someone with diabetis is choosing to not produce insulin. Clinical depression is a very real medical disorder. It is not something people choose to have or choose to do every day. Her pain is as real and physical and debilitating as a broken bone.
Your frustration is that her depression, her medical condition, is preventing her from choosing to seek treament. Much like a diabetic who chooses not to test their blood sugar or inject insulin. A diabetic may go blind or loose limbs, I think you are scared to death that her depression will kill her.
Stop blaming her for acting this way and recognize that you have a loved one in the throws of a very real and a very painful mental health crisis. And one very resistent to treatment. A while ago, my father asked me about my job and I mentioned some work I was doing on postpartum depression and he said, "That's so sad. I don't get it, having a baby is such a happy time." It just floored me. He was so innocent to think that being happy about a newborn had anything to do with the very real and very physical damage of depression.
Stop saying she's choosing this. She's not. Imagine her in her room with a broken bone with all of the pain, fever and nausea that that would bring. That's depression. It's a broken bone. A bone she's trying to heal with whispers and prayers and supertitions and delusions. She's immoble from the pain and in denial to recover.
I think you have to admit that this is not a choice for her before you can be helpful in any way.
livignitup, thank you, your words are very wise. you are absolutely right, although it is hard for me and my family to see it that way. Since she is mentally sharp when it comes to everything else, it's hard be accept that this isn't her choice. but yes, you are right, it's a medical condition she's dealing with at this point. Combine that with superstition and it really does a number on her and us.
What do you think we should do then, if she's resistant to treatment? We really are at a loss as to the "right" thing to do about this situation. Do you think she just needs time, and love? Do we make her go see a therapist and force treatment? The doctor that visited prescribed her anti-depression medication, but she told me she will not take it. What about her insisting to move back to the house? Do we just suck it up and move her back? I have a feeling once she gets there she's actually going to want to move BACK to the apartment once she realizes she's more alone there!!
OK I come form an old school big italian family and i can probably imagine exactly how she is acting and why.
I thinnk the idea of a preist is a good one, and honestly i do not believe that she believes that he really will come back..the italians like to be over dramatic and exagerate. Im sure she doesnt know anyone in her 77 years that has anyone come back from the dead.
You are damned if you do and damned if you dont. If you leave her where she is she will haunt you, if you bring her back youll be worried about her constantly.
I'd say you bring her back and let her deal with this in her own way on her own time.
Are there any other old italian ladies around?
I keep saying bring in a priest and you haven't commented on it, so that's a bit of a dead end.
And yes, she will go back to the big house and then want to go back to the apartment. It's all part of her condition and distress. You seem to want a one-step solution and this is severe enough to require a lot of round about and back again steps before it gets better.
I also see an entire component where your grandmother can't bring herslef to feel better. Which sounds shocking to you, but the pain may be a connection to her dead husband and even a sign of loyality to him. She may have to experience the hardship of missing major milestone's in her life, like her granddaughter's wedding, to give herself permission to stop torturing herself. But she has to live through it, she can't intectualize it.
Would the move back to her house be that major? It sounds like both places are furnished. Maybe just move enough for a week and then take it from there.
My aunt was moved out of her NYC brownstone and into a lovely apartment at her neice's sububan medical practice and spoke bitterly about it until the day she died. She had companionship, independence, care, family ... and she hated it, blamed the neice and the neice grew very bitter, too.
I would definately seek the help of a medical professional. She may be depressed, she may have dementia (which is often accompanied by depression). I think the dementia might have been mentioned on your prior post, but it is something to consider. The familiar surroundings of her marital home might help her cope better without your mom. Also, without your grandpa to "cover" her mistakes, she may be facing dementia for the first time (instead of pretending nothing is wrong). Only a doctor can tell for sure.
Your grandma is a grown woman - let her make her own choices. You do NOT need to revolve your life around her. If you can visit once a week, if you can get social services to deliver meals or check up on her, you owe her the dignity of making her own choice (in HER home, either one!!!).
When I say we moved my grandmother, I mean WE MOVED her. All of her belongings. The house is now empty as she told us she had wanted to sell it. She also refused to let us hire movers, so I had to move every single thing with my uncle. Now she expects us to do it again (and again, not allowed to have "Strangers" touch her stuff). I'm sorry but I just don't have the energy to move her everytime she changes her mind. We are talking about a lifetime's worth of stuff.I have my own life, and not to bring up the wedding again, but when I told her there's no way I can fit in another move with my wedding a month away, she got so mad at me! I have a full time job and do freelance work, it's just not gonna happen on top of wedding planning, too. I'm not trying to be selfish, but seriously, who could do all of that??
So the moving dilemma is not as easy as letting her stay at the house for a week to realize it's not going to help, and then have her move back to the apartment. It took us 3 weeks to pack, move and unpack everything for her.
And livingitup, the priest thing is something we are afraid to do. My uncle happened to bring a priest over the night my grandfather died. The priest came at dinner time and said some prayers with my grandfather since he was not doing well. That night he died, and ever since then my grandmother is terrified of priests. I did listen the other time you suggested it, and asked my grandmother about it and she freaked.
I am hoping the doctor that came the other day will do a follow up and give her some good antidepressants (hopefully she will actually take them, as she had refused medication before). Arg. I just realized I had an epiphany. Like a previous post said, she is resistant to treatment. She is going to need to want to get better before any of us can really do anything for her.
I SO AGREE!!
1. You did the right thing for the "big move" but you you don't need to do that each and every time your grandmother wants to move around. And much to the point, there is good reason to not go all-out on another move.
2. As an outsider, there is a huge quality of your g-ma running everyone in circles. It's really not reasonable for her to say "no movers". Sorry. It's absurd. Use the movers, cancel if she can't handle it - but then the non-move is on her.
3. I get the freak-out factor. But that's when you have to pack-it-in and go home. She may want the big move back to the big house, but all you need to arrange is two rooms, with the assitance of movers. If she freaks, walk away.
4. There must be a point where she is high functioning enough to demand these things from you ... and able to deal wit the reality that you cannot, in fact, do it all.
I guess my point is that she can't claim to be both so fragile and so obstinant with any credibility. She's either fragile OR a power demond. She can't be both. Obviously, she's trying to play both sides, I'm just pointing out that you don't have to fall for it.
5. The priest thing - terrified? Really? This old world, Sicilian's entire experience with priests began and ended with dinner and the same-night dealth of her husband??
Don't buy it. I still think it's an untapped resource. I get that she's trying to be a drama laama queen and it's hard to resist, but the ::priest:: angle is a huge. Don't skip it.
This, exactly.
You don't want to bring her back to her house because it's not as convenient for you and others to help her there. I'd have her packed and in her house this weekend, if I were you.
And god help you if you're ever in her shoes, and everyone treats you like an idiot.
Ditto livinitup 100%!!
I can understand the pain of widowhood, and I think you should allow her to live where she wants to live and make independant choices, but she doesn't get to dictate YOUR actions. She wants to move? Great - tell her you'll call the moving company. She refuses to allow strangers to touch her stuff? Well, then she either stays put or finds another way, b/c you will not be moving her again. She gets angry? "I understand you are frustrated, grandmom, but I've already moved you and I don't have the energy to do it again just b/c you don't trust a moving company. They are professionals and I'm not."
(But be honest with yourself - did she SAY she was afraid to be alone there, or did she cave to moving in with your mom after pressure from you, your mom, your uncle, etc., for her to move to make everything more convenient for you). And another thought - you're not supposed to make any decisions for a year after a huge loss (spouse, parent, etc), so after three months a move isn't a great choice.
She wants visitors every day? Well, she needs to stay with your mom, then, because you can't drive out there to check on her every day. Maybe they have senior services or meals-on-wheels that can stop by every day.
I truly believe in being available for family and helping out those in need, but you can also let your family members help themselves.
Sue Sue, I am trying my best here. ok? Looking for a solution that will help my grandmother AND work for everybody else too ain't easy! She isn't taking care of herself right now (as mentioned earlier: depression etc), so we're trying to figure out the safest/most positive situation for her moving forward after this huge loss.
The fact that she's started making slight progress in the apartment makes us feel like she's better off there. She's started cooking once or twice, doing some gardening, and comes downstairs each day to see my mom (and vice versa). These tiny things are huge progress compared to how she was at the house where she was nearly comatose. It's hard to want to move her back when she's beginning to improve. We don't want to go backwards. Do ya get it?? This comes from a place of LOVE, not CONVENIENCE for us. If you think this is CONVENIENT for us to make these changes, you are wrong. It's caused much stress and pain for us all. But we aren't giving up on her or ignoring her wants. We're just trying to look out for her in a time where she is not looking out for herself. Your words were truly hurtful.
RE: livinitup, you are seriously so right. About everything. I'm going to try and get a priest to see my grandmother. Perhaps he can talk her into staying at the apartment. If not, I'm also going to tell her that there's no way I can move her back again without movers. It's unfair of her to ask me to do that, after I just did it. I thank you so much for coming back and helping me work through this. It's a huge help. Really. Thank you. I hope there is some kind of solution in the near future.