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SSgt Gibbs court martial
Have you seen the latest update? He admitted to cutting off fingers of Afghan civilians, but not to murder.
http://www.cnn.com/2011/11/04/justice/afghan-sport-killings-court-martial/
The article ends with this quote:
"People want to prove they were there," Gibbs replied when asked by Stackhouse why they took the photos. Gibbs testified that he then cut off the man's finger. "That was the finger he tried to kill me with, I was pretty pissed off about it," Gibbs told the court.
Thoughts?
Re: SSgt Gibbs court martial
I am confused too. Stan, can you explain?
I ETA'd.
It's not that. It has to do with the other mentality that he's claiming he had. The wanting to prove you were there, being BA type stuff. I think sending some of these young kids, like SSgt's juniors will help them realize that this isn't okay. And have the guts to stop it where someone else won't.
I'm not being all that articulate, but I will when I gather my thoughts more.
Oh no, no, no. That's not what I meant at all. What I meant is that his juniors went along because, well, that's all they knew for the most part. I think this guy is sick and disgusting, and no amount of education would help him. His Soldiers? I don't automatically think those following their leadership are sick and evil. I think they're not well rounded, whole people, and *all* of their decisions are guided by the rank structure, general hierarchy, and what they think the Army and Infantry specifically are all about (being Bad A, being superior to the POGs, being more able to stomach violence that the softy POGs cannot, etc.). My point is that those younger ones who may not be inherently evil, but rather brainwashed would do well with something besides the Army in their daily garrison lives. Education is great because it provides people with critical thinking abilities (generally). People who think critically rather than just thinking Army, rank structure, America! all the time are the ones I think have a shot to stop this kind of crap. Even a PFC will stand up to a SSgt if he believes there to be a greater right or wrong than disobeying the rank structure. I think encouraging college classes would be a step in making a young Soldier a whole critical thinking person as opposed to keeping someone susceptible to this kind of brainwash.
Does that make more sense or do I still sound like an elitist who thinks the troops are dumb unless they're officers (I realize that's totally how it read)?
I understand what you are getting at, and I think I agree with you.
Just out of curiosity, because I really don't know, do enlisted personnel, in any branch, receive ethics training of any sort? Do officers for that matter?
I think it would be fantastic if they did. Like actual philosophy, ethics, etc. That is what I was trying to get at.
I think education, whether formal or informal, can do a lot to broaden a person's perspective, despite (or in addition to) their upbringing and experiences.
I can't speak for other branches but yes, we do. We have ethics training mixed into every NCO course and I know I've had separate ones before deployment and during my MP training.
I would think it should be a part of their training in basic/OTS/whatever. At least some introductory "get you thinking outside of yourself" stuff, and I agree with you in being encouraged to continue pursuing higher education when the mission allows for it.
I thought I remembered that C had some in his NCO courses as well, but my memory can be fuzzy at times.
While I know we have it and I believe it does help in most cases, I think some are beyond help. KWIM?
Upbringing includes education though, and education should be continuing. And I'm not actually saying that education in itself gives the power to say no. I'm saying critical thinking does. And if someone doesn't have that ability before the military, I think it's difficult to get when all your thought process is focused on the military. I'm not saying college is the end all be all, but again, I think Soldiers need to be whole people and have something besides the military in their garrison lives. Education would be my preference, but it could theoretically be religion, family, whatever. Anything that provides someone with a moral/intellectual compass besides simply the military. And I LOVE the military, but it's not enough.
exactly. and I guarantee this guy is extremely familiar with 2 of the 3.
I was just wondering what the mental health screenings are like at MEPS. (There are screenings, right?)
I agree with that. But do you really think that's enough for guys who aren't mentally ill but are mentally/morally weak? Obviously SSgt Gibbs wouldn't have existed if he had been kicked out via Section 8 or whatever it's PC called now, and I believe he is inherently evil and would have been caught in a mental health screening, but combat stress also pushes people who are mentally fit over the line sometimes. So why not encourage them to become even more mentally well rounded?
Enh, I just know that there are lots of kids who think that their Staff NCOs are Gods, and they're afraid to say anything, or afraid of the very idea that their SNCOs are fallible.
This is an interesting conversation though.
I'm not talking about him. I agree. I'm talking about his juniors.
WTF!?!?!?? for real? I cannot believe he said that. Like, that is supposed to be his excuse?
Yeah, Lorena Bobbit was pissed about her husband reportedly raping her, so she cut off his dong. Doesnt make it legal or right...
I changed my name
I don't think a degree stops people from killing other people. I think having something outside of the military provides the moral/intellectual compass. And it's great that you would say something. So would I. Degree or not. But not everyone has the moral foundation to do that. PFC Stoner obviously did, but only after being severely beaten by SSgt Gibbs and having to be treated by a doctor, who reported the assault.
And the higher ups suck. I think they're culpable, obviously. I think Lt. Ligsay and Captain Quiggle are the most culpable probably. I don't think what I'm saying about encouraging education for junior service members changes that. But that's a separate conversation. All I am talking about is Spc Winfield and Moore for example. The guys who started to think this sort of behavior was normal after Gibbs arrived. Then maybe Stoner wouldn't have been on his own. College doesn't negate evil, but maybe Winfield and Moore might have been able to muster up a bit more horror about the fake assaults.
I am picking up what you're laying down Stan. I am reading it like it is good to have some other experiences other than just military hierarchy and following orders. I think she is just arguing for more well-rounded soilers, not just that college is the only way to that - just that college is one way to obtain that. Also higher education does teach more critical thinking skills, which would be something one would use to assess a situation and determine if it was right or wrong.
KC- you knew right from wrong because presumably you had been taught that, not everyone was taught that at a younger age. Or some people may have been taught that "right" means "following orders from your CO" and not questioning those orders. I could easily see that if someone was never outside a little box and taught to think for themselves, they wouldnt have the courage or instinct to stand up to a higher up. And I know you've heard about mob mentality and all that.
I changed my name
BFP 2/17/12 EDD 10/24/12 MM/C 3/22/12 D&C 3/27, 4/4, 4/9
my currently-reading shelf:
I don't know about others, but from BCT Day 1, we were taught that NCOs are not gods. There are good NCOs and bad NCOs. We were told that an order to do something illegal or immoral is not a lawful order. Unlawful orders are not to be followed and are to be reported to someone higher ranking than the person who issued the order. Unlawful and immoral behavior is also to be reported. One of my favorite Drill Sergeants always said, "It's one thing to be a bad asss. It's a completely different thing to be psycho." Both J and I received ethics classes at least twice a year.
Someone higher up should have seen that this guy was a loaded gun. How in the heck does a guy this crazy rank up? You can see what's underneath a person in training. You know the people who are weak. You know the people who are strong. You know the people who are loose cannons. If you can't get rid of them, you send them to guard a bunker or a chair somewhere. There had to be some clue that this dude wasn't right in the head.
As far as the education thing goes, in the Army, you are encouraged to get an education. It's often pushed on you to take as many classes as you can before you get out. GoArmyEd offers free classes that can be used toward a degree. As a matter of fact, you can't rank up past E-6 with out a degree in many MOSs, including infantry. A problem J is facing is he has to have at least an associate's degree to rank up to E-7 but the OPTEMPO of his unit and the demands of his job make it impossible. He only needs 1-2 semesters, but can't do it.
I do think that people need something to do outside of work. I feel that way with any job. J's unit would agree with you. They encourage the guys to join a softball team, bowling league or what ever. They encourage family time. They encourage every one to get out of town every now and then and be normal. I honestly think that more units should stop and look at the ways these units are run and model themselves after them. I'm not saying they are perfect, but they work hard trying.
J and I both would have been DQed.