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Update: Trying to save my marriage Long and Venty
Update to my original post a couple weeks ago. http://community.thenest.com/cs/ks/forums/thread/60428890.aspx Not sure how to make it clicky.
You ladies were really helpful in giving me the kick in the pants I needed to realize how I was allowing the behaviors that my husband was doing to continue. So I spent a couple of days soul searching to see what I really wanted. So I decided I wanted to tell him and see if we could try and work it out with the understanding that he would need to get a job.
The talk went pretty typically. He admitted he had stopped trying to take pictures and that he wasn't doing anything to further his business. He described feeling dead inside and we talked about depression and that he needs to get help.
This is where it got interesting. He stated that while he was depressed and not doing anything to help us survive, this was all my fault because I am "resentful" of his work and I don't "allow" him to leave to take pictures (BS of course). Also any anger that I have means he can't talk to me and so I am the reason he's depressed and failing.
My rational mind is saying, Ok major defense mechanism here since he clearly can't cope with his role in this. He needs help. My hurt and angry mind is screaming profanity. I try to hold on to rational thought and suggest that in addition to his personal counseling for depression, we also see a marriage counselor since we disagree about what is happening. He agreed to that but he said if only I went to counseling all our problems would be fixed since I am the reason he is acting the way he is acting.
Now to marriage counseling... he proceeds with the same bullshit about me being at fault and I'm trying to guide us to a more natural conclusion about how we both made or didn't make decisions yadda yadda yadda. So far it hasn't helped but I didn't expect it would be a miracle over night thing.
Fast forward to a couple nights ago, where he proceeds to stop talking to me because I took our 3 year old over to my family's house to decorate the family christmas tree, like we do every year. He didn't think we should go because my nephew was going and he had been sick recently. I don't want my kid sick, but I do think it's worth the risk because we can't live in a bubble. Someone who was sick a couple of days ago isn't going to keep me home. It doesn't matter the reason though since if my husband got his way, we would never see my family. My son and I went without him and so he has now stated that I am just like "them" (my family I guess) and that he is all alone.
I am getting really fed up with this and am having a hard time staying focused on the goal. I see he's struggling but after everything I've been through and done for this marriage, I am not about to take the leading role in "horrible wife". I'm not asking him to take the blame either but I am asking him to take f^%ing responsibility for himself and his decisions or lack therof.
I need another dose of outside wisdom. Help!
Re: Update: Trying to save my marriage Long and Venty
I don't know your backstory but...
How long have you been in counselling? Maybe it is time for you to go by yourself. (not saying he is right about you getting counselling and all your problems will go away.) You going to counselling may help you realize what it is that you want in life and you can come to a realization that you either want to stay with hime if... or leave him.
I'm sorry you're going through this.
I have suffered from clinical depression and PTSD and never treated my husband at all like your H is treating you. I went to therapy, got on anti-depressants and did not blame him for my problems. I'm not saying it's easy, but I am saying that depression is not a free pass for being an unemployed asshat.
I know this is not what you want to hear, and I may get flamed for saying this, but jerks can suffer from depression too. What I mean is that while it's clear he is suffering from depression his lousy treatment of you can't all be put on that.
As others said in your last post, you can't fix the marriage yourself and he seems to think it is all on you. IMO it's time for you to at least separate. While it may sound scary, I think you will feel like a huge weight has been lifted once you can concentrate on you & your son rather than how he's brining you down.
Two big red flags here for me are the blaming you for the problems and the attempts at isolation (from your family). Both of those are classic abuser tendencies.
Honestly, if I were in your shoes (and I'm not), I think I'd be done. Like you said, I wouldn't be too keen on taking the mantle on the "horrible wife" BS. And to show him how "horrible" I *am*, I'd be MORE than happy to kick his ass to the curb and let him figure out his life on his own. You know, without him having to worry about me holding him back. But, again, that's just me.
He may have a point about you being resentful, but I think he's not quite understanding that its inability to act like an adult that's causing it, not his chosen "profession".
I remember your post from earlier. It seems that your husband is not willing to own up to his responsibility in the problems within your marriage. It is a step forward to agree to go to therapy, IF you are willing to change your behaviors. What I am getting from your post is that he only wants to go to therapy in order to feel validated in his bullsh!t behaviors.
If he is resistant to hearing some hard truths (that he is not completely in the right, and that he can't consistently place the blame on others), I don't know how much good counseling will do. I also agree with PP that it may be time to go to counseling on your own, if only to figure out your own feelings on how much more you are willing or not willing to tolerate.
The sad thing that strikes me here is that it does not seem that he is willing to take responsibility for any of him actions. You can't continue being made a scapegoat for his choices. Additionally, saying that he stopped taking photos because you are "resentful," etc., seems like an excuse to me. He wants to blame, blame, blame. From your posts, what I have gathered is that you HAVE been supportive, but are concerned about the lack of income. This is absolutely valid. My H and I support each other on all endeavors that make sense, but not without sanity checks. If my husband wanted to start a business of something, without other income, I would absolutely expect him to do his best to make a good go of it. If the business was not keeping up, I know he would get another job.
Photography is 100% a job that can be done in addition to another career. Most weddings, events, etc. are on weekends. You can do portraits in the evenings. Most photographers that I know (and I know a lot, due to my previous job), started out while having another career. It is not generally a career you can jump into immediately, expecting business. You need to get your name out there, start getting referrals, etc. This is a long process.
Sorry for the long post, I hope that things work out for you. Keep us updated. I think that you have done everything you can, and it is unfair to you that the blame keeps getting aimed at you by your husband.
Also, this. Well said.
While I think you are responsible for agreeing to support him while he tried to establish a new career, I don't think it is in any way your fault that he is depressed or not trying to work at all. To be honest, he sounds like a mooch who is taking advantage of you and your generosity. His attempt to turn this around and make this all your fault is just another way for him continue living with the free gravy train.
I have many friends who are established photographers that aren't making their mortgage payments because the economy has tanked. Clearly starting a business like a photography business in the middle of a recession wasn't the wisest choice. Not only does your H not have a business started he doesn't have a job at all.You have a child to support. Do you think that you son is getting a good example of being an adult or a man from watching your husband play "poor me" all day? Is this what you want to teach your child?
Are you happy? Are you happy supporting someone who isn't being responsible? Who is comfortable letting you do all the work and then turning everything around and blaming you for his behavior? I wouldn't be. Is this what you want for the rest of your life?
I think you should walk out and let him figure out how to support himself. Be separate for a while. Be aware that if you do eventually choose divorce that you will likely end up paying him alimony since he hasn't had a job in so long. He either needs to get a job and grow up or you need to get out. I would want a partner in life not another child and hope you would want the same for yourself. Don't let him try to pin the blame on you. This is all him, depression or not. Many people with depression work and he can too.
Here's the thing about this chosen profession.
Playing with cameras is fun. Being a professional photographic is friggin' hard and takes a tremendous amount of drive. I could never be a professional photographer and it has absolutely nothing to do with my ability to operate camera equipment. It has everything to do with my lack of comfort with rejection and ability to work well under immense pressure.
Your husband sounds like he's in a similar spot. Only I understand my strengths and weaknesses... and that I'm better off playing with my camera on the weekend when the stakes are non-existent.
The point is that some people just aren't cut out for it. The response to that is to pull back, reassess, and find something that he can do. The response is NOT to blame the helll out of his wife and cry about his art. I know lots of artists with day jobs.
Talk to him about ways that he can build his business while working. You're not giving up on him. You're just being realistic and realistic is picking up the want ads. Assuming he's doing wedding, portrait and family photography (and not commercial or fashion work), most photo shoots are scheduled for weekends anyway, right? Though I don't think it will be an issue once he's back to work and feeling productive.
OK well im going to be much more blunt and direct then the others girls so i might not fit into the kind to your soul part...but
Please dont get being depressed (which i dont think he is) and being a dik confused!!! People are depressed all the time and not bullies. Your H is a manipulative baby dressed up as a man. He has had it oh so good these last two years and He fears his sugarmama days may be coming to an end.
Lets talk about your sons life. Do you think this man is a great role model for your son? Is this what you wantto teach him about relationships? Manipulation?
I agree with pp that you need to leave him and let him get his act together on his own. STOP being his doormat, mommy, and bankroll.
Your son is exactly one of the main reasons that it is good that your "blinder" is coming off. From what you are saying, it sounds like you are starting to realize that you deserve more from a partner, and that your son deserves a father that helps provide for his family rather than whining and blaming. Good for you.
I'm really sorry you are dealing with this. DH and I have dealt with similar issues in the past and it can be really difficult (however, my DH works full time while he goes to school).
Please know that you are not a "horrible wife." There is only so much that you can make another person do, and it sounds like you have more than shouldered the burden in your home. If your H is not willing to meet you partway, you may be at an impasse.
If you ever want to PM me about this, please do.
I think individual counseling is a great idea. Not because I think what your husband is putting on you has any ring of truth, but because I think it will help you gain more insight into what you want for you & your son's life.
Your husband might be depressed, but having depression does NOT mean you can treat your SO/spouse like crap. It is completely and utterly impossible that YOU are the reason he won't get up off his rear to make the photography business work. That is solely his responsibility and if it is not working out or whatever then he needs to own it. There is no shame in saying, "hey this didn't work out or I'm not happy doing this. Let's try something else."
You've done all you can do to keep the life support of this marriage going. Its time that your husband meet you half way. If he can't or refuses to do that then you need to evaluate what you want to do with yourself. You can't keep taking the blame and being isolated from your family for this jerkwad.
Honestly, if I were in your situation and my H was blaming me for his failing arse then I would offer to take myself out of the equation. If he still fails and sits on his butt with you out of the picture who is he going to blame? At some point he has to hit rock bottom with this BS. You may love him but he is driving you away with this bullhonkey.
Take your time and make a decision that you feel at peace with. If you need us we are always here to help. ((hugs))
He is a lazy jackhole and he doesn't want to work (turning down work when he has a child is strike one). You are not going to get back your husband, this is the new husband and I can't see where he is a prize. He is manipulative and it is a matter of time before he starts blaming you for EVERYTHING. Strike two. Now, we see that he is going to make you miserable by not letting you enjoy your family or doing things without him. Strike three.
While you are strong and thinking straight is time to make a plan. He is only going to wear you down. Keep up your own therapy. I agree you might be confusing him having depression with him just being a dik. Either way you cannot fix him.
If your H thinks that everything is your fault, he will never change. Why should he? You are the one with the problems, you are the one standing in his way.
Do you want to be where you are now 5 or 10 years from now? If not, then I would at least separate. Then he at least has a chance at realizing that YOU are not standing in his way.
I'm glad you two went to counseling because I think you're really starting to see his true colors. Counseling isn't a magic fix, BOTH people need to be willing to change and he seems completely unwilling to even think about things he needs to change.
My husband works in a photo lab and their professional photographer business has dropped in half. Most of those people simply went out of business ( some even had been in business for decades). In this economy, a lot of people just don't have to money to pay for a professional portrait when they can have a friend with a nice camera take pictures for them. Of course they won't be as good quality, but if it can save a couple hundred dollars it is worth it.
Here is the thing about photography, it is cool, fun and creative. A lot of people like photography and a lot of people want to do it as a profession. So, your husband has a lot of competition out there for a small amount of business. He needs to find something else to supplement his income while be builds his business or perhaps photography can just be his hobby. This way the pressure is off of him to grow his business, not as much fear of failure and he can still use photogrpahy as a creative outlet.
As far as the way he treats you is concerned, that is just terrible. I couldn't imagine having all the blame be put on me for everything. I wouldn't stand for it.
My take on this... he was always probably a miserable, lazy SOB. However, before he went to photography school, he blamed his unhappiness on his old job, boss, wasn't doing what he loved blah blah blah. Now I fully understand that getting a new job can make a person happier; however, some people just don't want to work. They just don't. I have no doubt that he enjoys photography, but he doesn't want this to be his career and he doesn't want to deal with all the realities of running your own business and having to deal with customers. He doesn't want to work. He might say he does, but actions speak louder than words. If he truly wanted his business to succeed than he would do what he had to to make it successful. However, he doesn't want to do that. He just wants to blame you, just like he probably blamed his old boss for everything. You have a man that doesn't want to work and you need to realize that. I know you probably were hoping that this photography business would be the magic ticket he needed to become motivated but as evidenced by his actions, that isn't the case.
You have a lot of thinking to do.
I've known plenty of people with depression... and I've never seen one of them blame other people. They actually tend to blame themselves for even things they have no control over. My H suffers from clinical depression... and he beats himself up, and apologizes to me constantly for having to be with "such a fvck up". I'm not getting depression at all from this story... I'm getting lazy, entitled, d1ckwad.
Currently Reading: Don Quixote by Miguel De Cervantes
Dear God, you're living in my first marriage...
I was married to a man who suffered from depression. He was also a man who worked all of ten hours a week, spent entirely too much money on pipe dreams and schemes that never materialized, and slept constantly. Meanwhile, I worked at least 12 hours a day at a job I despised, took on extra responsibilities at said job to keep us afloat. I thank God I did not have children with him.
The entire time this was going on, he was also belittling, violent, and manipulative as all hell. I used to think it was just the depression, and the next medication change or adjustment would help (I went through three, for the record). If not that, then when his business took off or he found a different job, things would get better (the jobs never worked out, and things only got worse). I also felt like the world's worst wife, and even went to confession over it (to his credit, my priest looked at me like I was nuts for being in his confessional over this).
It took me a long time, and one hell of a scary night, to figure out that while he was depressed, he was also an abusive d!ck. Depression is difficult to live with, but depressed men do not abuse their wives. Abusive asshats do. One does not cause the other.
Leaving my ex husband was the hardest thing I've ever had to do, but the freedom, peace, and hope that I have now in this new life that I've built (even if it took a while to get here) is worth every bit of the fear, doubt, guilt, and grief I went through.
You have done everything you can. You cannot, by yourself, save your marriage, and regardless of the vows you took, you are not bound to be a martyr for your marriage. At this point, it is on your husband to save your marriage, not you. What you have to decide is how much you are willing to live with and how much you are willing to make your son live with. I promise that there is life on the other end of a divorce, and a damn good one at that. You do not deserve what you're living with. Please evaluate the situation for what it is (even if it's difficult), decide what you want for you and your son, and do what it takes to make that possible. Know that you have support, even if it's just here, and that you are strong enough to do what you need to do.
You can be depressed and also be an abusive @$$hat - sounds like your H may be both. Also, I had an ex-b/f like this, and the fact is, he wasn't actually depressed - he just knew that if he played the depression card, I'd do whatever he wanted to try to "make it better" for him. He was manipulative, controlling, lazy, and wanted everything handed to him on a silver platter. Your H sounds like he's exhibiting lots of the same traits I saw in my ex, and it's not pretty. I am so sorry you are going through this, and so sorry you have lost the man you married, but until he admits that the problems are his, and stops blaming you, he'll never go back to being who he was before. I'd say he's got 30 days (or 45, or 60, or whatever feel fair to you) to get his butt to individual counseling and to find a job that, you know, pays the rent, or you're leaving with your son. Then, do it. It sounds like you have family nearby who would welcome you (and you can obviously afford to run a household without your H, since you already are).
One other thing - don't underestimate the effect seeing your H behave this way will have on your son. You don't want him to grow up thinking this behavior is okay.