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How do I have this conversation with my mom? Sorry so long...
My mom is mentally ill - is bipolar, has schizo-affective disorder and early signs of dementia. Her biggest issues relate to mood and personality and taking care of herself. To say she is difficult to be around is an understatement. She is always in a bad mood, complains without ceasing, is paranoid and is continually accusing us of taking her money, a spice rack, etc etc and so forth.
Until Thanksgiving, I had not seen her since the beginning of June. This stuff has been going on for 12 years and after having to call ambulance/cops to have them take her to the hospital for help 3 times in the last year, we kept urging her to seek the help offered, take meds, etc. If she didn't then she would not be able to be an active part of our families (I have a daughter with a baby on the way and one of my brothers has 3 kids). This is just not something I want my children around because she is volatile and will yell at you in front of whomever.
So, Thanksgiving was horrible. She complained the entire 1.5 hours she was here. We couldn't distract her with happy, she would go back into her mood. I even tried to show her a pic of her new grandson and she started yelling again.
I just don't want this at Christmas. But how can I tell her that? I am miserable at the thought of not being with my mom - I miss her a crazy amount and this breaks my heart. My other brother (no kids) is caught in the middle because he still talks to her and he thinks one of the two of us with kids should be the ones to tell her she isn't invited to the family gathering (and I agree with him on this). He would get through the stress that comes with her, but he understands that we do not want our kids around the situation.
Also, I would consider doing a drop-in visit at her place. But she smokes a ridiculous amount and cig smoke is a migraine trigger for me and I will be ill after just a few minutes there. My DH refuses to let me go there pregnant and we both refuse to take our daughter there.
I understand that this isn't something she can help. But I think my well being and my daughters also comes into play. We can't help her, we can't make her get help - she has to want it.
Re: How do I have this conversation with my mom? Sorry so long...
She's probably also got a mental issue extrinsic of the ones she has now. And second hand smoke is dangerous and hazardous to everyone's health.
Tell her what you have told us. It's probably a good idea to tell her that until she cleans up her act and gets herself under control medically and otherwise, you and your H will not be on speaking terms with her. If she tosses a fit or tries to put the guilt trip on you, don't listen. Stick to your guns.
I wouldn't doubt if your brother is enabling her. If she uses him as ammunition to get him to be the middle man and pawn for her, I wouldn't be surprised.
Some type of therapy for you would be a good idea -- just for the fact that she is chronically ill and you're experiencing fallout from it.
Wishing you luck. Sounds like a tough situation for all.
I don't think my brother is enabling her. We're close and he and I talk about everything. The main reason he stays in communication with her is so that one of us is keeping check on her and her well being. I appreciate him staying in there as long as he can.
I live the closest to her and have been most involved with the hospitalizations for the past year. I held on for as long as I could. My health and sanity were at stake. I ended up in the hospital with meningitis and during a phone conversation with her, she yelled at me about a laundry list of things. I came out of the hospital feeling like it was time for my family (DH and my kids) to move forward because we were not benefiting her or ourselves.
I have been in therapy at different times during the past 12 years. Currently, one of the ministers at my church has been extremely beneficial to me. It is not lost on me that any of us are at risk for a mental illness since her dad was bipolar as well and my husband's grandmother was.
I honestly don't expect her to "snap out of her depression" or her manic times. I have learned a lot from the medical side of all of this in the past year since I was the contact for the mental hospital she was in. I spoke to a multitude of doctors, nurses, social workers, did my own reading and looked at it from a legal perspective. I even filed for guardianship/conservatorship, but had to drop the case because of my health and then the money aspect. It was exhausting and every aspect of my life was starting to fail.
My other brother with the kids will not meet at a restaurant, so that in and of itself will cause issues for those of us that are there if we're even able to get her to go. Not to mention, there is no place for us to stick another dinner in on Christmas Day and we won't be able to rationalize any other day with her.
As far as treatment goes, there is nothing we can do. We've explored all options and until she decided to take meds, check herself in, etc she is really on her own in that regards. It's sad, but legally we have no leg to stand on. She left the hospital with a plan each time between Oct 2010 and March 2011 and within a few days of being out, she refuses to take the meds and won't go to therapy. Part of her paranoia is that we have been duped by the doctors into thinking she is crazy. Her words, not mine.
Oh and she probably would have been in the hospital more except for the fact that she only has Medicare and it gives her 60 hospital days. Hospitals would not take her without a down payment which none of us can afford and she certainly wasn't going to give it to them. I am fairly certain she still hasn't paid the ambulance rides or co-pays from her other 3 hospitalizations.
Furthermore, once we made even one payment, we would have been on the hook with the hospital. There was no way I could set myself up for that kind of commitment. And it was stated very clearly in the admission docs and my lawyer who was handling the guardianship case told me to stay away from signing anything.
I say this very gently.
I am very sorry you are dealing with a mother with mental health issues.
On the other hand, you are dealing with a mother with mental health issue - so DEAL with a mother with mental health issues, so stop pretending otherwise.
You may wish you had a mother without issues, but that is not your reality. You do. I am so sorry. But I get such a strong vibe that you *wish* it so much, even though you haven't quite admitted it is not true.
I had a grandmother with issues and we spent T-day with her, at my parent's home, and that was it. As a child, it was enough. So, please, no guilt on the kids behalf.
Just pick another day around the 25th to spend with your mother. Don't make it 'all about the specific day". Please. Just don't. The holiday is not about a 24-hour period. Really.
I think therapy and a support group would definitely be helpful for you.
It sounds like someone (you or your brother or the state if you abdicate) will need to become guardian/conservator for her eventually, especially if dementia has started to become a problem. She very likely will end up in a nursing home (one that specializes in behavioral health issues + medical problems) and may need Medicaid to pay for it if she doesn't have other assets. I think you are wise not to pay for anything as it will never end once it starts. I would encourage you to help her apply for Medicaid and disability if she hasn't already.
I think setting firmer boundaries would be good for your family, but at the same time, you can't expect her to change. She is ill and likely will just get worse as she ages and the dementia progresses. I think you need to do what you need to do to protect the health and happiness of your spouse and children. If that means celebrating holidays alone, or just with your brother and his family, then that may be the way you guys need to do it from now on. You and brother can make a separate visit to her to give gifts and whatnot, but take her out of the holiday celebration.
Gretchen Evie, born 7/8/2012 at 35w5d
And to answer your post - this isn't something you discuss with your mother. I'm sorry, that's a pipe dream. I'm trying not to be cruel, but it's so unrealistic to discuss this with a person you described. I am so sorry. She just can't give you the satisfaction you want/deserve. I am so sorry, you deserve better. But you won't get it from your mother. You won't.
You know that, right?
I'm so sorry, but you know that, right??
I actually have come to terms with my reality and hers. This has been going on for over a decade. I was 20 when the symptoms started to show. It isn't that. I realize even with therapy and medication, I will never have my mom back. Medication makes her less objective and a little easier to be around, but it isn't the old her still. Each time she sees a doc, a new thing is presenting itself and she is on a fairly rapid decline.
And as far as picking another day, it isn't that easy. The response I would get to that option is "well I might as well be dead then." To her, it needs to be on Christmas Day or it is the end of the world.
My reason for this post is that I don't plan to spend any time during Christmas with her and neither does the brother with kids. The other brother will probably drop by, say hi and then leave.
The situation is fairly volatile. To spend time with my grandfather you just had to be prepared that he was going to talk continuously (and very fast) on repeat. If you can sit through that, he was tolerable. This is while he was on medication. My mom yells, she accuses, she complains, she slams things to the floor. It is not a healthy environment for my daughter and really it isn't healthy for anyone.
None of us will ever attempt to seek guardianship/conservatorship again. That's a whole other can of worms that we went through this year.
I have no doubt that at some point she will be in a home. She already has lived in an assisted living this year and became unable to stay because of her behaviors. She really needs the security of a memory care unit, but we couldn't get her to go there. Instead, she moved into an apt complex.
My brothers and my husband have all made attempts to help her with financials and better coverage insurance, etc. But she keeps saying it's taken care of or too expensive. She isn't even receiving all of her retirement benefits (retired teacher).
I know I can't have a rational conversation with her and expect to walk away with her understanding any reason. I do (or the other brother with kids does) need to speak to her between now and Sunday. She keeps asking the brother without kids about plans and it is not like she would believe we've decided not to get together this year.
It's just 10x more difficult this year for a few reasons: 1) This would be the first year we haven't at least seen her in the 12 years since the first signs that something was going on. 2) Last year she was in the hospital, so we saw her at the hospital and then planned a get-together after she was out. 3) The illness has progressed so it is a completely different situation around her now than it was even 2 years ago. Rage wasn't really part of the equation. And when she was "angry," it wasn't around the kids. 4) I am pregnant and due to have this baby within the next 23 or so days. If I am having a hard time rationalizing anything myself, it is related to knowing that my children will not really get to know her.
Does she have a primary "agent" in a medical directive? I'm wondering if there's anyone who legally can get her some help. It sounds like she needs proper therapy and medication before you or any of your family can visit with her in a healthy manner/environment and she's not in a state of mind to get this help herself. I'd first work on figuring that out.
Unfortunately, we've exhausted all of our options - this is coming from lawyers, a judge, social workers and some mental health experts. She is basically on her own in every aspect. If she ever were to ask for help (which I know is not going to happen), I would be right beside her and so would my two brothers. She was stubborn before the mental illness, now she is a brick wall. She also has her own world that doesn't have the same rules as the one we live in.
I will look into a support group. I sometimes remember that option is there. I looked at some the hospital she was in offered and they just didn't seem like a right fit.
Thanks ladies!
I agree with this. She knows she has a problem and she doesnt do anything to fix it.
A toxic family situation is not good for kids or for you. Its wont be a fun discussion, expect yelling, blustering, threats etc... Tell her calmly that you cannot be involved with her or have her in your lives until she gets the help she needs. Then end the conversation, walk away, hang up whatever.
As to the brother part. Thats his problem, and if he makes it worse, cut him out of your life until things get better too.
I have had some pretty bad family drama in the past, this is the best advice I can give as it worked for us.
We've tried on countless occasions. The assisted living she was in tried. I don't know if it is like this everywhere, but the laws favor the mentally ill in terms of them not getting picked up if they do not want to go. She can answer the type of questions they ask and so she is deemed not a danger to herself and others.
There was one night that it was cold, snowy and wind chill in the single digits and she was outside dressed inappropriately and had been for hours. Her skin was bright red and extremely cold to the touch. If a maintenance man hadn't seen her and called us, she would have stayed out there until who knows what happened. She was also talking to a baby doll like it was a real one and told them she was waiting on its baby daddy. The EMTs almost left without taking her that night. But one of them said she wasn't leaving the apt unless they took her to a hospital and she made countless appeals to her boss to let them take her.
Most of the time, they look at me sadly and say, I know she needs help and I do believe she is a danger, but my boss is telling me that I can't.
Ok, so I'm sort of new and really just a lurker, so feel free to take what I have to say with a grain of salt. I'm really sorry that your family is in such a terrible position. Just one of the issues your mom has would be enough to make it difficult to try to care for her. And I think you are wise to recognize that you cannot at this time be her guardian or take an active role in helping her. It seem unconscionable (not by you, just in general) that she can't be declared unfit to make these decisions for herself when it seems clear that she is fairly incapable of taking care of herself.
That being said, it's hard for me to believe, given that she is not a danger to herself or others (other than her inability to take care of herself), that you all can't set aside one hour on Christmas to see her. Sure, it won't be fun. She will be depressed and rude and yell crappy things because she has a boatload of problems that aren't being addressed. But an hour once or twice a year probably won't scar your children for life.
Wow, what a tough situation for your family.
My uncle is mentally ill, but he doesn't believe he is. He just thinks he's smarter than everyone and that everyone else is stupid, but he's just fine. He also would have violent outbursts and would alienate his sisters (my mom and her sister). They finally had enough and they've been estranged now for two years. They told him they'd help him if he saw a doctor and started taking medicine, but he won't.
Now he spends his days on twitter harassing a celebrity (he tweets her all the time trying to get her to contact him to learn the secrets of the universe).
We pretty much told our mom two years ago that we would not be attending any holiday function where he was present because now we have young children and he's just unstable (and we feel he's possible even dangerous).
Anyway, I think you have to talk to your mother. Tell her that she's sick, and that you can't expose your family to her behavior. She needs to take her medication or she won't see her family. Maybe when she actually has consequences for not taking her medicine she'll hit rock bottom and ask for help she needs.
I think it's unrealistic to make plans to get all the siblings together with mom at one sibling's home at the same time, whether it be on Christmas day or some other day during this time of year.
Each sibling has such a dramatically different logistical issue with regard to your mom that it is making it impossible to "have the whole family together." You each need to make individual plans with her.
When you tell her, as livinitup said, don't phrase the announcement as "Your illness has gotten so bad that we can't do Christmas with you." Instead tell her what you ARE going to do with her. Just say, "Mom, here's the plan for Christmas this year." She's probably going to react negatively to whatever plan you concoct, so just tell her when you can see her and roll with it.
As you surely realize, you can't base decisions on her reaction to them. You have to make the decisions that you know to be the best for everyone concerned and move forward with confidence. Also, don't for a minute feel that the siblings shouldn't continue the tradition of gathering together on Christmas Day, if that's something you would ordinarily do.
She is not legally considered a danger to herself and others. Their litmus test for that is asking her questions like the date, what day of the week it is, name, about her children, etc and so forth. My mom may be losing some of her memory, but she is one very intelligent woman (was a biologist/teacher), which also enables her to be extremely manipulative. One of the EMTs told me she would practically have to be standing there with a gun to her head or someone else's for them to take her.
However, there have been many occasions where either I have felt unsafe or either of my brothers or their family members or people she is just around.
Could I set aside an hour on Christmas to see her? Yes and I would except for the whole idea that I am not risking my own health to do so. I also do not want to expose my 3 year old to this as much as possible. If she was older and I could explain this, then maybe. But we can't possibly know what effects this could have on her. I do know that as my mom's illness has progressed over the past year, I have watched my daughter pull further and further away from her.
At some point boundaries need to be drawn. We've told her - numerous times - that in order to be a part of our family that she needed to get help. I have come to believe more and more that we have to follow through.
After being extremely sick and in the hospital for nearly a week in June, I decided that it was time for us to move forward and live a happy life. My DH and I had fought as hard as we could to get her help, exhausted all options and spent more money than we had saved. After how awful Thanksgiving turned out, I don't think it is too selfish to not want the same at Christmas or any other holiday in the future.
If I was on board, brother without children would come to my house to have a get-together with her. This is how Thanksgiving went since other brother is out of the picture entirely in regards to her.
As it is, the three of us kids will be getting together with our dad on Christmas. Before last year, we got together with our divorced parents at the same time on all major holidays with exception of Mother's and Father's Day. As adults we told them that we would not be doing multiple visits on any holiday and if they wanted to spend time with us, they could be in the same room for a few hours without issue. And honestly, it worked well.
That's sort of what our thinking has become. Nothing else will work. She has to want this for herself. I think by continuing to play into her whims, then we are enabling her.
I think you're right.
You know what? It sounds like you know what you need to do, and you know what you want to do, you're just doubting yourself because it's going to be hard and you don't want to hurt someone you love (and someone you believe is already hurting). There is no easy solution here, so you have no choice but to go with the one that's best for you and maybe best for her as well.
That is exactly the issue at play. I have always believed you don't leave family behind. And fortunately, up until this past year (even with the mental illness becoming apparent 12 years ago - there were 3 years of that where she had left town and I really didn't see or talk to her), my family has been fairly calm. I've been extremely blessed in that regards. We've had some struggles, but we seemed to always make our way back to this close-knit group.
She needs to be in a memory care facility with available 24/7 medical care. If she's violent and slams things like you say she does, she needs supervision.
One of my best friends worked in a memory care ward of an assisted living nursing home, and he described it as a very nice place actually. All of the staff there really cared about the residents, they even did a Thanksgiving dinner, Halloween party and Christmas Day dinner with the memory care residents. I think they celebrated New Year's with them as well.
Most of the staff would be somewhat experienced in dealing with mental health issues and/or nursing, as a lot of them go on to study for a nursing or psychology degree. Meaning, they do care about helping the residents and like being there with them. This would be a wonderful place for her, being in company with people who understand what she's dealing with and can help her with her memory problems on a day-to-day basis.
I really recommend a memory care facility for your mom. It sounds like it could be very helpful for her and take a lot of the stress off of you and your family.