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Let's talk about the character of a person
I live in one of the first caucus states and it's presidential political ads ALL.THE.TIME. (Think to what you'll be seeing in October - that's what it's been like here the past 6 months.)
Anyway - there was a big discussion about Herman Cain and his alleged infidelity and Newt Gingrich's ethics violations as well as being on his third marriage. Newt's argument is that he's made mistakes in the past but shouldn't be judged on those now. (sound familiar achase?)
Do you believe that someone's past immoral decisions indicate the choices they may make in the future?
Do things like infidelity go into the "bad choice" or "character flaw" category?
ETA: This is more of an integrity/character question rather than a political or career question. The political examples were the triggers that got me thinking about the subject.
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Re: Let's talk about the character of a person
This, except what really grinds my gears is when candidates run on the "holier than thou" ticket with that kind of crap behind them. I hate when people act all morally superior cause no one is perfect. So you just look foolish.
ETA: Took out double word. Also, just to clarify, I feel that Cain and Gingrich (and many GOP candidates) run on the ''holier than thou" ticket. Barf.
Agreed.
As a president, a person is supposed to be working in the interest of the public. If they have made immoral decisions in the past to benefit themselves, would it concern you that they'd do it again? Such as the Rod Blagojevich situation and him selling the senate seat for his own gain. Not ethical and (imo) didn't do his moral duty as a public official.
I guess I'm saying that if someone makes immoral decisions in their personal life, it makes me think that they'd do the same in their professional life and vice versa. They don't operate on a "this is right or this is wrong" mentality, more of a "what benefits me?" mentality.
I understand what you mean and agree to an extent, but someone who cheats on their wife is like 60% of other men!?! They're (presidents) human beings--they're not perfect. I think Bill Clinton was a great president---ps, I'm a flag-waving liberal and while I do not condone his actions as a husband, I do think he led the country in a positive direction (oh, with the exception of DADT and DOMA).
Let me add---while yes, I agree morals in one's personal life (which I was thinking this refers to in terms of Cain & Gingrich because the issue with both of them is that they are both cheaters.) are important to a person's ability to lead, I don't consider it a necessity.
I usually lurk on here but I had to jump in. CPA I think we are from the same state. I completely agree if someone can do the job then what they have done in the past is in the past. If they are having moral issues that cause them not to be able to do the job then that is the only place where they can be judged.
My stbxILs are very political and their conversations about peoples pasts and how wrong they are about things drove me insane, I would have to leave the room.
Don't we make ourselves feel better by saying "if he'll cheat with you, he'll cheat on you?", "once a cheater always a cheater," or "he's her problem now - good riddance." Don't these comments indicate that we believe someone who's done wrong before will do wrong again?
I understand people make mistakes and aren't perfect, and maybe I'm way too judgmental and bitter, but the "I'm a changed person" speech really doesn't convince me of anything.
I think it's possible that people who have made questionable decisions in the past will wise up and not make questionable decisions in the future. The younger someone is when they make those questionable decisions, the more likely 'rehabilitation' is possible. The greater distance in time since the last such poor decision, the more likely rehabilitation is possible. The less someone tries to minimize the seriousness of their poor decision making, the more likely rehabilitation is possible.
All that said, it's true that the best predictor of future behavior is past behavior. and I would be gravely concerned about a forty year old man who had a series of poor decisions behind him being able to somehow 'do better' all of a sudden. People are what they do. If you lie, you're a liar; if you steal, you're a thief; if you use people, you're a user. And if you have done bad things, this means you have the capacity and willingness to do a bad thing if circumstances align correctly. The more bad things you've done, the more likely it is you'll do them again; you've demonstrated a willingness to go that way.
Many people can change their behaviors; few can improve their characters. If I've spent ten years as a serial cheater, I may be able to stop that, and never cheat again. But the character flaw that led me to be a serial cheater will lead me to act out in other ways, just not cheating anymore. The sense of entitlement, the enjoyment of risk, the thought process that I'm special, I don't have to follow certain rules, the idea that it's ok to break a promise if the person you owe the promise to won't punish you for the behavior; THIS is the issue, not just the actual behavior itself.
I think it's a character flaw. I think some people just lack integrity. My husband would have been the first to admit that he has none. He likes to hold himself up as having it, and has accused me of not having it (not sure why, he could never justify that accusation), but in his few honest moments he admits that he is a compulsive liar and a cheater. It's like what I said in a post the other day. Doing something stupid ONCE and making a mistake is one thing, but keeping an ongoing affair with someone, or habitually not being able to keep it in your pants, is a sign of a much deeper problem.
As far as politics, ehh. I am a republican and think Bill Clinton was a fantastic President. Wish he could run again, in fact. I don't know that being a cheater has anything to do with being a good president or not. You'd be hard pressed to find a politician who doesn't have questionable personal morals. The same trait that makes someone that power hungry seems to be tied to the trait that makes people want to cheat. It's thinking you're 10 feet tall and above the rules - when you're in charge, who do you have to answer to? Why not do whatever you want? I don't AGREE with that thinking, but I think it's there. Know what I mean?
I agree with you wholeheartedly with this in regards to politics...
I made a mistake as I was leaving my marriage and had an emotional affair. Do I think I'm a bad person, at times. Am I having a hard time forgiving myself, most definitely. I realize how much I hurt another person and I will regret it for the rest of my life, but I also realize that I have to move on. I was in such a bad place at the time that I don't even recognize myself.
I vow to never be in a relationship again that I allow to deteriorate to that point. When I started dating D, I came clean and told him that if it was dealbreaker, I understand. His wife cheated on him. He said he wasn't and appreciated my being honest with him.
As D and I become more serious, my feelings about my mistake are rearing their ugly head and I've had to take some time to process them. I feel like if D cheated on me, it would serve me right. It's hard for me to accept that such a wonderful man has come into my life even though I know I deserve it. I'm trying really hard to have a more positive outlook and trust that I'm a good person who made a bad mistake and not let that define me.
I know I'll get there but I definitely see the world as shades of grey and not so black and white. Although there are clear cut instances of people just being total douches with absolutely no character.
If someone is good at their job but makes piss-poor decisions in their personal life, then I would hire that person but I wouldn't date that person. I think the two realms can be distinguished from one another, though I wouldn't date or hire someone who made good personal decisions but was bad at his job. I'm not sure if the political world is a good comparison though, since we elect these people to not only be our voice in government, but to also represent us to the world at large. There's less of a personal/professional line. I'm not someone who particularly enjoys the fact that we're viewed as a nation of ass-backwards hypocrites, though that seems to be par for the course. Politics requires a certain personality type, and those personalities are egotistical, narcissistic, and conniving. It's funny that we act shocked when the politicians are "caught" for it.
I'm not sure it's fair to compare Bill Clinton to Newt Gingrich in this regard either. Clinton was good at his job and was a great steward of this country. I wouldn't want to be married to the guy, but I'd vote for him again. Gingrich has had problems related to ethics, plus I don't think his policy would be good for the country, so I wouldn't vote for him. I also wouldn't date the guy, since, uh, his track record has been less than stellar. He's pretty much tied with John Edwards in the scumlord category.
To your more general question, I think past immoral decisions absolutely indicate future behavior. I'd even argue that for your two political examples, the immoral decisions never stopped. If someone wants to run for President, they should be held to a high standard and I don't apologize for judging them. I don't know why some people are turned off by Ivy educations or perceived elitism. I want my President to be better than me in many ways.
Well said. ITA.