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Lurker needing advice (long - sorry!)
I've been lurking for a few months, and know that you guys give really good advice. I figured I'd come out of hiding and see if I could get some advice about my current situation.
FI and I have been together for almost 4.5 years. Living together for almost 4 years, and engaged since August 2011. We are planning a small wedding for this coming October. He is a wonderful man in almost every respect. He?s patient, kind, has never raised his voice to me or called me names. We rarely fight, and he has stuck by me through a lot of family and emotional problems I have had over the years (I?ve suffered from depression and anxiety on and off for the last 4 years).
While our relationship has been great for the most part, there have been two big problems that have been ongoing issues in our relationship. He accrued massive amounts of credit card debt while he was in college (years before we met). He was able to get it paid off in 2010 and as of last year, was supposedly credit card debt free. We have had many discussions about his spending habits and he promised he wouldn?t buy anything on credit since he had it all paid off. We went ring shopping last spring, and I told him it was really important to me that he buy a ring that he could AFFORD. I made sure he knew there was no rush and to take his time saving up OR get a small, inexpensive ring that he could afford. He proposed in August and told me the ring was totally paid off. A few weeks later I had asked him for the paperwork from the jeweler so we could have the ring appraised. He gave me the paperwork but didn?t realize the receipt was in with the rest of the papers, and I saw that he had paid for most of the ring on his American Express. So he lied (obviously, a huge, huge red flag). I asked if I could see his credit card statement and low and behold, in addition to the ring, he had racked up about 2k more in credit card debt buying things for himself all over the course of 5 or so months. I was really hurt that he had lied, and that he had been spending money he didn?t have on things he didn?t need. When I found out he had lied about the debt, I explained that this was the last straw. I told him that I would still like to move forward with getting married as long as he committed to being totally honest from now on, and if he showed progress with his bad spending habits. But if I caught him lying again, that would have to be it. He committed to seeing a counselor, and supposedly has been for the last few months.
Along with lying about the debt, I have caught him in a lot of lies since very early on in our relationship. They?ve always been dumb things that I wouldn?t have cared about if he had just been honest. But this has been a pattern with him and I?m finally realizing that I?ve been burying my head in the sand all of these years, trying to convince myself that his lying isn?t that big of a deal. I thought my come to Jesus talk with him last fall finally made things sink in. I was very hopeful that he would be honest with me, but now I realize how naive I was being. The reason he continued to lie in the past was because I reinforced the behavior by always forgiving him. I caught him in another lie this morning for the first time since everything happened last fall (another dumb thing to lie about so I just don?t understand why he would lie). He of course tried to backpedal and talk his way out of it.
I?m just really torn and need some unbiased opinions. Do I end the relationship? At the very least, I think I need to give him the ring back and call off the engagement until he gets his sh*t together. But this pattern of lying is obviously an engrained character flaw that he has. And a deal breaker. That, along with the concealing of his debt last year, make me second guess if I should even be with him. I WANT to be with him. I love him with all of my heart and aside from the lying and the sneakiness about the credit cards, he?s been great. But the lying and the debt are two HUGE red flags, so I don?t know if I should expect him to ever fix these problems. And I know that every time I forgive him and move on, it only gives him the permission to do it again (kind of a fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me type of thing). With these issues being such BIG issues, do you guys think it?s worth it to stick it out and hope he makes the change he needs? Or call it quits completely? Maybe if I left I would be dodging a huge bullet. I know that people don't change unless THEY want to change, so maybe I'm fooling myself by thinking that these are issues he can work on in therapy. But of course I love him and we have spent the last few years building a life together and I can?t imagine my life without him. I'm so torn on what my next step should be. I truly appreciate any advice you ladies could give.
Re: Lurker needing advice (long - sorry!)
I apologize, I couldn't read the whole post because I have really poor attention skills. BUT.
I think it is undeniable that there is no reason NO REASON to tether oneself to a liar or shady o'grady, when there is an option not to.
you love things about him- he is probably a good person.
BUT.
in the long run, and marriage is a LONG RUN. long. and legally binding. and credit contaminating. and LONG.
wouldn't you feel better saying, I've dated some great guys, but I MARRIED the one who I had NO DOUBTS about. nary a reason to hesitate.
you can have a sucessful marriage a lot easier I think if you start out with a solid foundation of NO MAJOR ISSUES and then approach the ones that come along AS they come along.
you can love someone and hold them in high regard without marrying him. you can move on. maybe your paths will cross in the future and he will have cleaned up his act.
but don't marry someone you feel like you have to constantly monitor and worry about. Or you're going to constantly monitor and worry about him.
and that would BLOW.
This is who he is. If wanting to spend the rest of your life with him is contingent on him changing a basic part of his character, then you don't want to spend your life with him, not really. It's not love when you think of the person as someone who's almost right, that you can maybe mold into what you really want.
This makes it sound like you're doing something wrong, and you are, but really, whether you wanted him to change or not, I'd tell you that someone who lies and is bad with money isn't going to make a good partner.
You have already reinforced that you arent going anywhere no matter how many times you catch him lying, or how many times you have threathened him!
Why oh why would you ever trust him about anything? He is a liar who continues to do so...about big stuff, little stuff, and YOU DONT trust him(you shouldnt)
He has already shown you over and over that he isnt going to stop...even if he does it is only for a while...what happens 10 years down the road with 2 kids and a house and you realize you are 50,000 in debt because of him...then what?
I think YOU need to go to therapy to figure out why you keep reinforcing his behavior and you already know deep down you need to move on so maybe therapy will help you do so,
These two things are so, so true. Thank you. I needed to hear this.
Kuss is right. This is who he is. You have the choice of accepting that and all that it comes with or not. You can't change him and you can't expect him to change. If he seems to change for you in a short period of time, I wouldn't trust that it would stick for a second. You just have no way of knowing without giving it lots of time.
What would you tell a friend who came to you with this?
I would tell her exactly what you guys are telling me. I think I've known the answer for a while, I just needed to hear it from someone else.
Thank you guys so much! I have a lot to think about. We moved out of state together, so I have no close friends or any family where we live. We still have 6 months left on our lease...so the breaking up process is going to be very complicated. But, a lot easier than getting a divorce 10 years down the line. I know I need to make some hard decisions now in order to save myself A LOT of heart ache in the future.
your 10 years from now self with thank you SO HARD. people live too long these days (god willing) to not choose VERY carefully before commiting.
If you do go through with the wedding and he "slips up" again with credit cards, it won't just be his problem anymore - it will be your problem too. If you're willing to take that risk and financially bind yourself to someone that has a history of poor decision making, then go for it.
The lying is a problem, for sure, but is his spending the only thing he's lied to you about (that you know of, obviously)? If he's just lying about spending, he could feel embarrassed that he doesn't make enough money to afford the lifestyle he (and, by extension, you) would like to have. Putting things on credit cards you don't know about may seem easier than admitting he can't afford certain things. If that's the case, it's totally possible that talking to a counselor can help him learn to live within his means better.
ETA: That's if he wants to change, obviously. If he has no interest in getting his spending under control and doesn't really want to stop accruing massive debt, then there's nothing you can do about that. Either he wants to change for his own financial benefit or he doesn't. If he doesn't, you don't deserve to be stuck with that financial burden.
Everyone has already given great advice, but I'm curious, what are the stupid lies. What lie did he tell you this morning?
Kuus is right, this is who he is. Either accept that he will continue to lie to you or know that you deserve better and move on.
You're so right - breaking a lease and moving are 100x easier then divorce, child support, alimony, etc.
You sound like me when I was engaged. He lied about little things here and there. Money was a big one. School was another. And then there were stupid little things he'd lie about. That was 14 years ago ... and I'm now divorced because I'd call him on the lies, he'd blame me and eventually the lies started involving inappropriate relationships with other women -- one of whom he left me for and now lives with.
So, I'd say lying is a big deal breaker and I'd cut my losses before you get married.
This isn't one lie. He has established a pattern of behavior.
~Benjamin Franklin
DS dx with celiac disease 5/28/10
Sounds to me like he's immature and insecure as well. I know a guy who has done the same thing for years: lied about just about everything.
I think you should cut your losses and go. Like I said, the lying is unhackable. Sorry for your troubles.
You're right - I'm realizing how immature he is, and very insecure. He does have great credit because his bills are always paid on time (I've seen his credit report). But I don't think I can get past the lying.
I just had a great session with my therapist and she told me it's probably a good idea to separate for a while and let him work on his issues. I do think he wants to change, but his actions haven't exactly shown me that he's very dedicated to changing.
I'll be talking to him tonight. Thank you everyone for your advice. I know it's what I needed to hear.
ITA with this.
I'm glad you had a good session with your therapist. Good luck with the talk!
This describes my first husband exactly, except that since we were long distance until we got married, I never realized that he constantly lied. It wasn't until we lived under the same roof, I had access to credit card statements, etc that I started noticing all of the lies.
The first lie I caught him in was when he told me he paid off a credit card. Just out of curiosity one day, I opened his credit card bills when it came, and saw that there was a pretty significant balance. I was livid.
Then I noticed that he lied all the time about the dumbest things - his golf score, if he had the oil changed on the car, if a bill had been paid yet. It completely eroded our marriage and we eventually became like roommates. I just couldn't respect someone who constantly lied.
I told myself that the lies were only about small things and that because of this I could live with it. I was kidding myself. A person who lies about small things will certainly lie about big things, and you will never, ever be able to trust them. I eventually caught him meeting women online. I was shocked because I really never thought he'd do something like this. He said nothing happened in real life and seemed genuinely sorry. He swore up and down that it wouldn't happen again. Well, it did and I left. I realized that because of all the lies he tells, I could never trust anything he says. I couldn't live like that.
We've been divorced for six years and he has remarried TWICE since our divorce.
IMHO, you should get out. Pathological lying is a very, very serious problem. It's not just a character flaw like being impatient or messy. It's a real psychological issue that isn't easy to fix, and it will erode your marriage.
I think you need to 1. Give him back the engagement ring and 2. Have a serious talk with him about everything. There is something called financial infidelity and he is definetly commiting that here!! I can see where little white lies can lead to bigger and bigger things in this instance. He needs to see the error in his ways and in the long run you could be really hurt emotionally and financially by his problem. If you plan on having a joint account, home, children and the whole 9. It sounds like this could be the start of unraveling a whole bunch of little things that just compounded and got bigger as time went on. I always said I never (well I always try not to) lie because then I have to remember what I said.
Best of luck and HUGS
THIS. Go ahead and marry him if you want, but I promise you that you will divorce him and realize that you knew that's how it would end up all along. Just skip all that BS and DON'T MARRY HIM. HE WILL NEVER CHANGE.
I too am pretty much a lurker around the nest but I wanted tocome forward and say that I am in a version of your boat, just fast forward a year and a half and you are married -
My husband and I had very separate finances while dating (he owns a business so we shared nothing) and while I knew he had floated through hard times with credit cards in the past I let it slide and trusted him to have money to spend when he spent it. Now we are married and I have learned that his debt in far larger than I ever expected and it is going to affect us for many years to come.
He was very scared to tell me about it (for obvious reasons since I would be questioning marrying him as you are now!) and now that we are married he has come clean and we are addressing it together but it has been a long road already and I would not recommend starting a marriage if you have any idea that this is what it is going to look like. We are slowly making progress but it is still hard and my husband has no history of lying about anything and has been up front about this since it has come to light.
I guess what I am saying is that you already see not only a problem but a pattern of a problem and he has not made any real strides to change. Marriage will only make it harder to leave and you can always postpone the wedding and see if you can work it out, but my guess is that this is something he is going to be like forever and you will eventually move on and find anogther good guy that you can trust. I wish you the best because I know how helpless it can feel.
but my guess is that this is something he is going to be like forever and you will eventually move on and find anogther good guy that you can trust. I wish you the best because I know how helpless it can feel.
you too could do the same~!