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A spinoff of the abortion thread, from a one more makes four response
I figured that a separate thread would be the best place to continue the debate, since all that poor woman asked for was support and what to expect concerning a decision that she'd already made. So, I'd like to talk about this response from one more makes four:
" Whether or not it makes YOU mad doesn't matter. It's the truth. Those who are anti-religion get all worked up when anyone mentions God and faith. Why is that? Why does it make you uncomfortable? Because you know it's real?"
This is an issue that also came up today not around abortion, but around Catholic rules concerning communion and transubstantiation, and it really bothered me. Aside from feeling as though there's something arrogant and ignoble about trying to convince yourself and everyone else that you know what a deity is thinking and wanting, aside from feeling like it's of dubious merit to make decisions based on interpretations of clues on what a deity who isn't coming outright and saying much of anything thinks and wants, the assumption of might = right really upsets me.
For those of you who are Star Trek TNG fans, we'll call it the Q conundrum: are the opinions and values of a being that is omniscient and omnipotent automatically ethically, morally superior to ours? If so, then how much bigger and stronger must that being be in order for morality to be defined as whatever that being says it is? If not, then to what moral standard is that being compared to determine whether or not it is a god that should be followed?
I especially want to hear from the religious people on this matter. How are you choosing your god? How do you monitor your god to make sure he is worthy of being followed by you, to make sure you're not accidentally following something other than what you'd consider to be a god?
Re: A spinoff of the abortion thread, from a one more makes four response
Ugh. I am still confused by your concern/question.
I don't believe in God because he's bigger or mightier. I believe in God because He knows what is best for us and because He loves us. I recognize that my ways only get me into a whole lot of trouble. I recognize that His ways are not my ways....but when I tend to follow His ways I'm much happier and more at peace....even if they are harder (maybe it's because they are harder). Take a good look at the Cross...does that God seem mighty to you?
Kuus' brain turns me on!
No, because I know it's NOT real.
I 100% do not believe in an interventionist god. Most of the horrible things people have done to one another throughout history have been in the name of a religion or an ideology backed by a religious power. If there really is an interventionist God who listens to our prayers and steps in when needed/wanted, why would that God's followers be allowed to do this sh*t? They are all convinced God is on their side without being concerned, to paraphrase Lincoln, that they are on God's side. In the case of many Christians, they are just straight-up bad Christians, behaving in a completely un-Christlike manner. This is why every time I see somebody use religion as a justification or reason for something, and it is their main/only reason, I squirm. I get uncomfortable. I wonder what else they are going to justify in the name of a deity.
I come from a family where one relative's reaction to his daughter's refusal to attend their church after she was sexually assaulted by her youth pastor was to lock her in her room with a copy of the ten commandments and instructions to pray more. This same man felt it acceptable to lock up his child instead of getting her counseling or medical care one day and then proselytize against Planned Parenthood the next. Somehow, I doubt Jesus would be behind him on that one. While it does not apply to all believers, there are a lot of people like this who use religion or their faith as a way to punish others for making them feel doubtful, insecure, uncomfortable, or questioning. They turn around and do things that logically, the God of most major religions would not support, and at the bottom of it, it's not for God. It's for themselves. The interventionist God idea lets them feel they are in the right since they aren't being punished; it "proves" that persecuted people are in the wrong since God let it happen.
Usually when I say this, I am told that God tests us, or that God works in mysterious ways, or that people shouldn't be so arrogant as to question God. I find the truly arrogant thing is to presume you have some privilege or specialness over all the other people who are also praying, only it's not for a football victory or to stop gay marriage but to end a famine or prevent the murder of the people in their village. The arrogant thing is to think that your little group of believers has the only correct understanding of a religious text and that all the other sects and believers are wrong, and that it somehow gives you the right to presume to act on God's behalf. If God can reward one person for being "right," he could just as easily come on down and smite somebody for being wrong, so there is no logical reason for us to treat each other like sh*t over religion...but it isn't logical.
Since I'm the one being quoted by the OP I'll chime in here.
I'm not really sure what the OP is getting at other than to question one's (my) faith in God, but I'll try to respond.
God is not the only power at work in the universe. There are two powers: God and Satan. Both are extremely powerful and both want us to worship and glorify them.
God gave us humans free choice. We are free to choose how we behave, what we say, and what we believe. His greatest desire is for us to choose HIM as He chose US. But obviously we don't all do that.
People do bad things all the time - Satan is very good at leading us astray and tempting us to do evil instead of good. We can often recognize these moments in our lives and realize that we did wrong - usually we know this because we feel guilt and regret. Other times we feel "justified" in our actions / words because we are more concerned with the end result of making us feel better or we mentally force ourselves to be okay with what we do because we don't want to admit we are wrong. Humans are very stubborn like that.
And Satan is SO GOOD at finding our weaknesses and using them for his good and our detriment.
To say that God "allows" us to do bad things and that He must not be "real" because we are able to make these choices isn't entirely true. Yes, He does allow us to make choices - but He most certainly doesn't want us to choose poorly. If God intervened and made sure we all did everything just right, what would the purpose of our lives be? We are meant to choose Him, to live our lives for Him, and to make mistakes and learn from them along the way. He wants to know that we not only believe IN Him, but we believe HIM. That is where faith and trust in God comes into play.
Radical groups of people do things that are evil in the name of God. That has been the case forever. Does it make it right? Absolutely not. It is up to us to discern good from evil and to step in and prevent evil from perpetuating. Take the Holocaust that was brought up in the other thread. Hitler may have claimed that his plan to eliminate entire groups of people he deemed "non-human" was justified according to God, but we know that this isn't true. Sadly, it took the world far too long to step in and stop his evil madness.
My faith in God brings me great comfort and peace. I totally understand that no matter how much I want others to share that same faith and feel the unconditional redeeming love of God, not everyone will chose Him.
My grandmother has a wonderful quote on her refrigerator that sums up how I feel rather well: "I would rather live my life as though God were real than to deny Him only to die and find out He is indeed real." (paraphrazing the quote)
I hope that answers your question - if not feel free to clarify what you are asking and I'll try to answer again.
YES YES YES - THIS is what I was getting at :
"God is not the only power at work in the universe. There are two powers: God and Satan. Both are extremely powerful and both want us to worship and glorify them."
To what do you compare God in order to be able to tell the difference between God and Satan? If both are equally powerful, and one is tricky and wily, then what are your criteria to determine whether a message is from God or Satan, and where did you get those criteria? I know some people say the bible, but there are some severely mixed messages in there. Even at the beginning, one powerful being is telling humans not to eat something that will grant them knowledge and wisdom, and the other is saying that having wisdom is a good thing and that they should eat it. Who is the good guy and who is the bad guy? I know what religion teaches, but you can see that there is a good case to be made for the other side. How did they come to the conclusion that the one who wanted people to remain ignorant was the one in the right, the one who should be followed? How did you, specifically, come to that conclusion, and why?
Apparently the extremists only debate schmaschmortion, not theology.
Interesting.
I'm not religious, so I have nothing else to add.
http://pandce.proboards.com/index.cgi#general
Well, I don't think we're going to resolve an issue that philosophers and theologians have debated for thousands of years in one nest thread. Perhaps we should just agree to disagree for now.
I think believing in a God is one thing, but using something like the bible as the end all be all for how we are supposed to live our lives is suspect to me. I was raised Catholic but have not been a member of the church since I was a teenager but from what I remember from CCD class is that the bible is the written account of the human experience with God. Many parts of the Bible are oral tradition that was written down because in that time most people were illiterate and relied on their memories to pass on traditions and stories. Oral story telling was the norm long before writing and reading was popular.
Which then takes me to the bible itself; there was no bible for the first 350 years of Christianity. The first official list of Scriptures was done in 393 at the Council of Hippo, then again in Carthage in 397 and 419. The church did not infallibly define these books until the Council of Trent, when it was called into question by the Reformers, in 1556.
So it?s been edited and re-edited by the church a few times taking things out and putting new things in. All done by men in a time when patriarchy ruled the land. Basing our entire way of thinking and doing things on a book that was written by men and put together over 450 years ago seems na?ve and short sighted. There are general themes in the bible that are good and true but to be honest there is some seriously messed up stuff in there and not to mention irrelevant to the modern world.
Man has been creating explanations for how things work and why things happen since the dawn of time because it helps make things seem less scary. I think the bible is one of those things and is one of the reasons I left organized religion. Do I think there?s something greater out there then me? Yes, I do. Do I begin to even know what it is, no. But I don?t believe there is something/one sitting up on high actively getting involved in our day to day lives. And frankly, there are so many different religions in the world how is it that only one is right? Christianity alone is broken down into so many sects and each one thinks they have it right.
I think I?m starting to ramble so I?ll end this now. But I find the debate all very fascinating and am curious as to what others think.I am not a part of this board, but I wanted to say, I am very sorry that you were a part of this. That man had his own will. He was not a true religious man if this is how he behaved. People claim to be christians all the time, that doesn't make them one.
God does NOT test us in those ways, He does give everyone free will, and this person was NOT in God's will, he was/is sick in the head, as was the "youth pastor".
I also want to say, I am a very religous person, but I have questioned God. I mean, I had a terrible loss after I prayed and prayed for my baby for 9 months. It's okay to ask God why. I don't believe the God "kills people" only that he allows it.
Like I said earlier, I don't believe it was "God's will" that this happened in your family, but these people made stupid choices. If they were truely Christians, those things wouldn't have happened, period.
I know I'm probably beating a dead horse, but I just wanted to tell you I'm sorry that happened in your family. I have a adopted sister that was a victim of rape at a very young age, and it is very hard. I am not pretending to understand it at all, but I did watch her change as a person, and it was wonderful to see her heal.
Just for the record DH and I were married in a Viking-handbinding ceremony.
*runs back under the rocks*
I have multiple issues with religion and God but I suppose I would just like to paraphrase something that I heard (I believe from Steven Fry). I have a problem with having to believe anything because someone can't prove that it is false. That is totally reverse logic. Whenever people say "I believe in God because there is no proof that he doesn't exist and I feel him" I like to counter with "I believe I can fly and you can't prove that I can't and I feel it so therefore you should believe that I can."
As a Philosophy major with a Religion minor in college and a seminary dropout I have LOADS of issues with any and all religious institutions and gods of any kind and, unless I am asked, do not go around spouting off my atheism to everyone around. There are very few militant atheist and many many more militant (fill in your favorite or least favorite religion here). This is what I think a lot of non-religious people have a problem with. If someone is trying to have a logical debate about something, why does religion have to come in at all (unless, of course, the debate is about religion).
Just a couple of my myriad of issues with religion that I thought I would add.
2012 Reading Challenge