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My SIL looks at us and I'm convinced all she sees is $ signs...
Yep - it's true. DH's sister basically "lives off of the system" and the only time she calls us is when she wants money. I'm truly convinced that when she sees us (or thinks about us) all she sees is $ signs. DH has a good job and makes enough money for us to pay our bills, etc., but we certainly don't have money to just give away.
She calls or texts 3 or 4 times in a row if DH or I don't respond right away; frankly we avoid answering her calls because 99.9% of the time it's a round about way of asking for money. Oddly enough she almost always can find enough money for pot but at the end of the month there is never "any food left" or she needs money for this or that. It's never small amounts either - she's asked for apartment security deposits, etc. I can't stand it!!
It's our niece's birthday this weekend and I mistakenly asked SIL for a few reasonable gift ideas - the first thing that came to her mind was $100+ (for a 5 year old). We barely know her children because we can't stand to deal with her; yet without our gift "contributions" at Christmas time, her two children wouldn't have really any Christmas at all.
DH has said time and time again he wouldn't have anything to do with her at all if it weren't that she'd go to his parents (my in-laws) and ask for money. My in-laws are on a limited income and really can't give her any money at all without doing detriment to themselves financially. DH has a good job and he works hard but her constant begging for money is really getting out of control.
To be honest, DH works so much that a lot of the time he spends at home, he's still on the computer, working (which means it seriously cuts into our time together). He says he works so much in the hope of creating a secure financial future for us - that is one thing (and I am very appreciative that he does this) . Giving money to SIL because she'll otherwise suck his parents financially dry by emotionally manipulating my MIL, is quite another.
Any ideas how I can make this stop? I'm SO sick and tired of it and I know it stresses him out terribly...
Re: My SIL looks at us and I'm convinced all she sees is $ signs...
In the end, your Dh is going to have to realize he's not responsible for anyone - his sister NOR his parents. I get where he's coming from, but at the same time - they are adults who are also capable of saying "no".
But let me ask you this- if she does suck them dry, will they ultimately end up under your "care" after all? If so, has your DH tried having a firm heart to heart w/ them? That he can't support her, but if they insist on giving her money they can't afford to give her - then that will lead him to supporting THEM?
Has he layed it out to them?
~Benjamin Franklin
DS dx with celiac disease 5/28/10
He has tried having a heart to heart with his parents (mainly MIL), yes. SIL guilt trips MIL really really badly and so MIL actually ends up giving SIL money that FIL doesn't know about...
Just to throw another issue into the mix, FIL honestly detests her too and really wants nothing to do with SIL - those issues are deeply rooted in her childhood, way before DH was even born.
If it weren't for the fact that she makes MIL an emotional wreck (I mean we get tearful phone calls from MIL, etc), we'd sever all ties with her.
Yes, I'm fearful that we'll end up financially supporting MIL & FIL too because of this...
She sees dollar signs on you because she knows you'll give her the money. So STOP GIVING IT TO HER.
I get that your husband is concerned about his parents. I really do. But they are adults, just like your SIL is an adult. They are free to make their own choices in life, just like you SIL is free to make her own choices in life. If they choose to keep giving her money even if it drains all their resources, then that is THEIR decision.
Your husband is enabling all three of them if he continues to bail them out. And that's not helping them. Sometimes people need to hit rock-bottom before they wake up and realize that their behavior is destructive. Sometimes they never realize it. Your husband's parents will never see a problem with giving their daughter money until the resources run out and all three of them are up shiit's creek. And your SIL will not do anything to help them ... she will just look for another sucker to fund her bad habits.
You need to sit down with your husband and explain that, while you understand and appreciate that he wants to help his family, it has to stop. Because it's putting a strain on your marriage and it's making you afraid of what the future brings. He needs to stop this ASAP before he's in an even deeper mess (like EastCoast said, his parents might need to be financially supported by you guys if he keeps up with all of this and pretends there's not a problem).
Hopefully your husband will wake up and hear what you're saying, and he'll tell his parents that he's no longer giving SIL money and he suggests that they do the same. If his parents don't listen ... oh well, that's their problem. Your husband can no longer afford to baby all three of them like this. They need to act like adults, even if it means falling flat on their faces. That's how people learn how to act right. SIL doesn't know how to act right because nobody is letting her fall. If her kid winds up being neglected as a result of all this, then your in-laws can consult a lawyer or social worker and figure out the best way to take care of the child if SIL can't do it herself.
But if your husband won't listen to you and continues to give his sister money ... then you need to tell him exactly how you feel about that and how it will affect your marriage. What happens if he's withdrawing from your joint savings to support her? What happens if she, or her parents, asks to move in with you guys? What happens if you want to have a child or buy a house or go on vacation, and you can't because those funds have gone to SIL? Will your heart still be in a marriage where your husband's main concern isn't his wife?
Then that's between your MIL and FIL. Your husband is not involved in their marriage choices.
Your FIL is choosing to stay in a marriage like that and not put a stop to this nonsense ... that doesn't mean that your marriage has to be the same way. Your husband does not need to clean up his parents' mistakes. MIL is going behind FIL's back because she knows that your husband will be her support.
Your husband needs to say, "Mom, you know we love you. We know that you love SIL. But you cannot. keep. doing. this. You are doing her and your grandchild NO favors if you keep giving her money. You need to stop it and let her make her own way in life."
If MIL won't stop calling and crying, your husband needs to say, "Mom, I love you, but if you insist on enabling SIL like this then I can't watch or listen to you do it. I need to insist that you stop talking to me about all this." And then if she STILL won't knock it off, he needs to say, "I love you, but I have to hang up the phone. I refuse to have this conversation. Goodbye" and then hang up the phone. He needs to ignore her calls if she calls back.
Again, she keeps doing this because she knows your husband is supporting her decision. He can tell her it's wrong all he wants, but if he keeps listening to her crying and if he keeps giving SIL money then he's really NOT telling her that it's wrong. Actions speak louder than words, and it's just common sense that she won't stop the enabling if she knows that there's at least one person out there (your husband) who supports it. If he fully stops showing support for her decision, then maybe that'll be the kick in the pants she needs to cut it out.
Then you need to tell your husband this. And you need to tell him exactly how it makes you feel, and exactly what you think your reaction will be. If you believe that you might not want to stay in a marriage where his family is always running to him for financial support or housing (especially if those problems can be prevented), then you need to tell him that. Then he can decide for himself if he wants to continue supporting his family and risk losing his wife, or if he wants to prevent any potential marriage problems by taking the steps NOW to stop his family's bad habits.
The bottom line here is that everyone involved in this situation is an adult, and everyone has a choice. Your SIL has the choice to support herself or keep asking for handouts ... your in-laws have the choice to bail her out or let her learn on her own ... your husband has the choice to bail out SIL and his parents or let them all learn on their own ... and you have the choice of accepting this situation for the rest of your life or putting your foot down at some point (whether it's right now, or in 10 years when you have several people living with you and draining your bank account and putting a stop to all the plans you've made for yourselves).
None of you are being forced into any of this. The only innocent person in this situation is your niece ... and if she's ever in danger then there are legal ways to protect her.
Take a step back and look at this situation with fresh eyes. So far, you've been treating it like a series of emergencies - she suddenly needs food, she suddenly needs a rent deposit, and lately 'surprise' the 5 yo needs a $100 birthday gift. And since each seems to be an unique suprise, there seems to be an undelying tone that "What a shock, please help this one time and then I'll be all set." But then, something new happens. You have to shift from treating this as an emergency, to treating this as a chronic problem.
Based on experience, you know she is going to ask - and likely need money for the rest of the year. How much did you spend last year? Did you track it at all? Can you add it up to some solid number? What percent of your after-tax income was it? 5%? 10%? Did last year happen to be a particularly "bad" year because she needed a rental deposit, or is she asking for food money on a regualr basis?
She not going to suddenly stop asking, but you two can look at your income and decide how much of it you are willing to give her - for an reason. Are you willing to give her $1000/year? $500? Do you want to include presents for the children in that? What about their activities when they get older (dance classes, camp, etc.).
Plan it out. Stop acting like a hero to her problems. This is not a cycle that is doing her any good and its certianly draining to your family's finacial goals.
Once you have a set number, even if its just $100/year, then he'll have the perpective to say 'yes or no' to her constant demands. Becuase once she drains the gravy train dry, its drained.
And I don't believe she's not hitting her parents up for cash, too. No way. Money is definately being passed behind your DH's back - becuase they all know he'd freak. Definatly happening.
@ mbcdefg: I hear you, I really do.
In fact, I've given almost the same exact advice plenty of times before. The only problem is that when it's in your own family you have a completely different perspective.
I understand that yes, DH is technically enabling their behaviors and the fact that he only does it to save his mother from heartbreak doesn't really negate the fact that it's still enabling. My educational background is in the social sciences so I know all of the technical stuff - at this point what I need is a concrete method or plan on how to (delicately) work through this. As I'm sure you know, since humans are behaviorally and socially diverse creatures, there is no cookie cutter fix-all solution to every family issue.
From past experience I can tell you that some situations warrant a "hard and fast" approach, or what most people would call tough love. Unfortunately, in this situation that approach will actually do more harm than good and will set me/us back further and create more problems than we have now. My in-laws cannot take care of SIL's children - that's been tried in the past and just isn't an option. We cannot / will not take on her children either, thankfully we've already discussed that.
I suppose this is how it feels to be stuck between a rock and a hard place.
@ livinitup:
Yep, we're already to that stage. We already pay for our nephew's bell set for band on a monthly basis. Now, because he wants to try out for football I know that if God forbid he makes it, in the end I'm sure we'll be paying for that too. (I know that makes me sound like a terrible person but c'mon, I know it's just more $ she'll 'need').
MIL has been all over me about when we plan to start a family (and now my parents are starting to ask, ugh) but to be honest when we're dealing with all of this I can barely even start to consider such a large endeavor. I mean seriously, we're already basically supporting SIL's kids... how do we expect to support one of our own? Children are expensive!
It's not that I begrudge giving our niece and nephew gifts at all - as their aunt and uncle I think it's appropriate to give them gifts at birthdays/Christmas/etc. but not to be their stand-in financial parents.
I am thinking livinitup's idea of making a budget for what we will give SIL every year when she needs it is a good idea (if I thought we could stick to it - I think I will try and bring this up to DH). We wouldn't include the children's gifts in that but we'd certainly make sure they were financially reasonable for the holiday.
And again to livinitup, yes... I know. I have no delusions that she isn't hitting her mother up for money too (I know her dad wouldn't give her a penny if she asked, separate issue) - the whole situation is very messed up.
... it's no wonder people like the ostrich approach sometimes - stick your head in the sand and hope it goes away. Unfortunately, it never does which means something has to be done.
you say no when she asks. and say no EVERY time she asks. why would she change if you just hand over the cash every time she asks? NO NO NO NO!! learn it-use it!! it's a great word
and your ILs can say no too but you do NOT have to give her money to deflect her from asking them. all you can control is what YOU do. you can say no. its up to your ILs to use that word as well.
You can also say no to supporting his parents after they squander all of their money on their deadbeat daughter. That's what's great about "no" - you can use it over and over and over again.
You make it stop by stopping the flow of money. "No, we can't". "I'm so sorry, but we can't". "No, it's not possible for us to give you money".
You can't control what his parents do, any more than you can control what she does. If they give her money, well, that's what they do. That's their business.
Look OP, from your responses, I can tell that on some level you KNOW it is time to stop giving her the money, but you are just trying to get the willpower and help your husband get that willpower too. You are not doing her any favors by giving her that money. And I get wanting his parents to have enough money for their living, but ultimately that is their responsibility as adults. And you don't have to support them either. It sounds like FIL is on board the Don't Give SIL $ train, so start there and have a talk with him about your concerns.
If you want to help out SIL's kids, then do concrete things, like buy them school clothes, etc. But guess what? Sometimes they are going to have to be told no too. Think about it this way: if you had kids who wanted everything under the sun, they wouldn't get everything would they? No. Because that is how life is. It is really ok to say no, even if it may be hard to do so sometimes.
@ Juris11 - I appologize if I wasn't clear. I do not give her money, at all... ever. I never have, I never will. I'm the one caught in the crossfire here.
In fact, I'm always the one who says that giving her money is enabling her and gives her absolutely zero motivation. My thought is that if she isn't to the point yet where she absolutely hates her situation, it's obviously not bad enough for her to want to change / do anything about it. Although I'm not in the habit of doing this, to quote Dr. Phil... "it's workin' for her." She keeps asking her brother, my husband, for money (or not really asking, but rather manipulating him by using their mother's emotions as a pawn), and at the end of the day, the majority of the time she gets it.
Hi Bella Vita,
This is our story almost exactly. The SIL has been soaping off of MIL and Brother (my husband) and other family members for years. There are no children and FIL passed before I met my husband. Her parents enabled her for her whole life because every month she'd ask them for money and they'd give. My husband blames them.
So here's where we are today. MIL is a disaster with money. She got an inheritance from her mom which she promptly gave most of away to the daughter, and we couldn't do a thing to control it because she wouldn't sign over her finances to us and she is sane so we couldn't take it over from her.
Since the FIL passed the MIL has been living between my husbands brother and my husbands house. (he still owns his home and I own mine we live separately because we need to place the MIL somewhere before I will move in with him or him with me and the SIL has been a huge detriment to that) She can't go back to his brother's because the brother takes all her money too. When my husband picked her up from FL, she was 1K overdrawn at the bank because of the brother and she wasn't eating much.
On a Sunday morning about 5 years ago SIL calls and says "I need you to pay for my meds, I'm at the pharmacy, give him your credit card" My husband went off on her, and said he'd help this time but that was it. He wrote her a long email and told her she's cut off. At this point the MIL is with the other brother in Florida. She writes me a nasty and toxic email calling me names and saying to stay out of her family business. Instead of blaming it on the proper person, her daughter, she set me in her toxic sights. My husband stopped talking to her and wouldn't let her come to visit him until she apologized to me, which many months later happened. He wouldn't back down.We weren't married or engaged at that time.
So the SIL is cut off from my husbands money, but still taking as much as she can of mommy's SS check as she can! In order for us to live together, we need to get the mother placed at assisted living, the only way to do this is to give up all her assets (she has no money, except the ss check) and go on medicaid to live there. It's a very nice place, but you have to be practically destitute and have no assets. They look over her finances at the place and it looks like she's off loading assets because the last of the inheritance came in and the daughter got access to her checking account and spent almost all 3K in 3 weeks. All while her mother is in the hospital suffering from C Diff. So the place won't take her and we're back to square one.
My husband took his mom to the bank and demanded she get the daughter off the account, he calls his sister and tells her if she takes one more dime from MIL he's calling the authorities for elder financial abuse. He tells his mother that she needs to give him access to her password so he can keep track and if she doesn't, she's out of his house today, and he's going to be watching the account and if she gives a dime to the SIL she's out and at a nasty nursing home that will take her.
So he's watching. It will take 6 months for her to clean up the account at least, before anyone will take her. I'm very happy living in my own home and have stayed out of it. He really wants to live with me and it's not happening until mommy is placed. I rather enjoy our marriage living apart but cannot justify the money loss. We planned on moving in together last summer but there is so much work to do on his house to get it ready to rent out, he had to spend that time fixing it up and he works full time and commutes 2 hours a day. Then we are all set to move in together and this happens with his mom and the finances.
I don't know what to tell you except when he cut the sister off his stress level went way down. He read the book Toxic Parents and started cutting himself off emotionally from these 2 nut cases. His mom is over her toxic BS toward me now, because my husband won't put up with it. She has many problems one of which is she lays in bed all day and does nothing. She won't cook for herself or take care of herself, she's been depressed for years and is on all kinds of meds etc. He just wants to get her placed so he doesn't have to see her live like this. She loves her misery. He won't be manipulated or guilt tripped. It just doesn't work on him. When she complains he tells her it's her own fault and he doesn't want to hear it. We have a great marriage and I love him for standing up to them and cutting off the sister from the MIL's money, this just happened in January.
I wish you luck, I know it's very hard to turn your back on your parents. That is his struggle. He can't just throw her out on the street, (although he threatens her that he will) and he is very serious and can't be manipulated by his mother and she knows it so she is complying with the arrangement now.
Hopefully she's placed within 6 months and we can live together.At the assisted living they will give her 3 meals a day, clean the room, do laundry etc. and that's what this woman needs, because she won't do it for herself. We told her she'll still have her car and can visit us and we'll visit her, she'll be about 5 minutes away from where we'll be living.
Your story is exactly my story but since there's children in the mix it's going to be much harder but I would start by evaluating if you can cut the sister off completely, then start working on the parents. Let the parents know you won't be there for them if they keep giving money to the sister, I know this is much easier said than done and it's harsh, but in this type of situation it is the only option.
It's a process, and you can get started on that process, just have to make the decision to do so, he needs to stand strong and stay logical and not emotional, and not be manipulated, I really believe that is key, not to fall for the guilt trips.
My SIL has her mother totally manipulated even though time and time again she's shown MIL she won't be there for the MIL in time of need. But the MIL won't stop trying to help her, but now it's over with the financial BS at least.
The sister is over 40 years old, his brother is 51 and in the same situation, except his money requests are few and far between now, but mommy was paying for his cell phone until January. My husband cut that off too when he found out after looking at all her accounts. Last we heard the brother is living in a tent cause he got kicked out of his apartment. We don't care. His problem, I've never even met the brother and MH and I have been together for over 7 years.
If your husbands parents keep giving, she'll keep taking and it WILL go on for the rest of her life until someone takes action.
My husband has told my MIL time and time again, she should cut the sister off because when she passes he will NOT under any circumstances, give his sister money. period. the. end.
My husband is the only one in the family that has any money sense. He witnessed his parents go through multiple bankruptcies so he said he'd never be like that. He has an over 800 credit score. We have zero credit card debt, pay cash for everything, have and emergency savings (both of us) several retirement accounts and are putting his son through college. We will never expect our children to take care of us, and we won't take care of them in adulthood either and they know it.
Best of luck.
Our nephew's father is a deadbeat and God only knows where he is. If I remember correctly, MIL told me once that the man has close to 10 children spread all over the city (with 10 different women I'd suspect). He apparently only does work "under the table" and is therefore able to evade having to pay any child support or go to jail for failure to pay. Same goes for our niece's father. Delightful, isn't it?
I think FIL's issues with SIL go way beyond financial and have been on going since before DH was born (SIL is about 10 years older than DH).
I agree that DH has to learn to say no to her - and he does, sometimes... but when it gets to the point that SIL is making MIL cry and then MIL calls DH and me crying then we're back to square one. So in the end it's really that he is saying "yes, you can make our mother an emotional train wreck" as soon as he tells her "no."
Doesn't anyone in his family know how to say NO? That's all that needs to be said. She's an adult. She needs to pay her own way. If your MIL can't handle the guilt trips and wants to go broke enabling her, that's her choice...and it's a choice she IS making. It's NOT you or your H's problem and even though you care about your MIL, if she ends up in tears or has financial hardship because she enables her daughter, that's between her and her daughter. She sounds to be just as much a problem here as your SIL.
And as for the sad story about her child's father, she can go to court and file an attribution of income. The judge decides an amount that represents the salary he would be making if he did work and he'd be ordered to pay it. If he doesn't, he goes to jail. Judges do not allow men to pay nothing. Ever. Sadly, if she doesn't like that situation, she should be more discriminating about with whom she shares a bed.
Maybe your MIL should be crying and feeling bad. After all, she raised this deadbeat and continues to encourage her to be this way. Why is it your husband's responsibility, and yours, to make sure your MIL doesn't have any consequences for her poor parenting skills?
To Return of Kuss:
We've been very happy together for 7 years, married for a little over one. In fact I've never been happier. We have a great marriage! The whole his mother thing doesn't get in the way of our happy marriage, we both have somewhat disconnected emotionally from his family.
I can't tell you what the future will bring as no one can predict the future, but so far, so good. He is a wonderful husband, doesn't lie, drink, do drugs, cheat, or gamble.He has a great job (ten years and loved by his employers and co workers) makes great money, we have no debt and money in the bank, he's funny and we get along great. We're family oriented and bowl on a mixed couples league every week. We really enjoy each others company. We have our spats about cleaning or stupid stuff that everyone has their little arguments about of course. We talk during the day at least once if not twice, every day.
He's never called me a name and when we argue, he doesn't yell. He tells me he loves me daily and how beautiful I am regularly, and last but not least he works out, has a great body and we have an AMAZING sex life. We are always affectionate toward each other we kiss and grope all the time. This has been going on for over 7 years, and that's why I've never been happier in my life.
But you never know, it could all go to ***, and I mean that in all sincerity, you really never know. So I'm enjoying it while I got it.
SIL is making MIL cry and then MIL calls DH and me crying then we're back to square one. So in the end it's really that he is saying "yes, you can make our mother an emotional train wreck" as soon as he tells her "no."
You cannot let her and the MIL guilt trip you. You've got to disconnect from all that. Your husband is being driven by guilt. You'll never end this until you can get away from that guilt trip from them. I suggest some counseling. My husband is the most steady, strong man I know. He called his EAP for advice more than a few times.
If you haven't read the book Toxic Parents, I recommend the book, it can open your eyes. And read "Co Dependent No More", excellent book.
@ seamco12 -
SIL is 10 years older than DH. I honestly couldn't tell you if I wanted to why FIL detests her, but he does and it's blatantly obvious to pretty much anybody and everybody.
I'd say a lot of FIL's resentment has to do with the fact that SIL has never really had any drive to do (or be) anything other than a societal mooch. DH doesn't "support" her other than giving her enough money to keep her from emotionally tearing their mother apart. SIL is a master manipulator and can almost always figure out a way to get what she wants.
In the past when I've asked MIL why she continues to give SIL money (since it does nothing but create further financial dependency), the only reason she can give me is because SIL is "her daughter and until you have kids you won't understand." Yeah - ok.