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Does equal= the same= fair to you?
One of the other posts about autism made me think about a broader issue that I always wrestle with.
One of the deeply held beliefs that is part of the American experience is that all are equal and that it is implied that if you are equal you are the same and that everything must be the same to be fair (or at least that is how I interpret it, although that can be debated).
Over the years however I came to realize that people are not the same. They don't have the same opportunities, they don't have the same natural ability, they don't have the same circumstance, and they certainly don't have the same ability to reach various goals.
On the surface that sounds cynical and not positive, but when I thought about it more, I don't think this is a bad thing itself. Where is gets bad is when we couple the idea of fairness with being the same or equal and apply it to everything.
there are some things that this makes sense for, like basic rights, etc. For others, it makes no sense. Take education. I personally think the French system is just as fair as ours (if not more so) and it does not provide the same education to all. It matches you with a school that aligns with your abilities and desire.
Anyways, wondered what other people's thoughts on this were? Do you think there are exceptions to the thought that to be fair, something must be equal? Or do you think that is an oversimplification?
Re: Does equal= the same= fair to you?
I'm not really familiar with the French school system, but I don't think saying everyone should have equal rights = everyone is exactly the same. I'll be back.
::off to google French school system::
If you've been taught and accepted that life isn't fair, you are clearly Republican! This is a value that Democrats have not been taught. FACT.
Fair is not always equal, that's my motto.
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I agree with this. An example I can give has to do with college savings for my step daughter vs my DD. We put more away each month for DD than SD. SD has another parent who should be equally responsible for college, so we save a smaller amount for her. DD only has us to save for her, so that amount is a little higher. Equal? No. Fair? Yes.
Now this is not, nor will it ever be broadcast to either child.
What's the Ann Richards quote about GWB?... something about starting the race at the finish line and being all proud about how he'd won...
I think that's the case for a lot of people.
Life isn't like a race, where everybody starts out at the same place. We all have different places where we're starting, not because of anything we've done, but entirely because of who and what our parents are/were.
Some people have a longer, harder road than others. It's never going to be the same.
One thing that is important when considering "fairness" laws (like "fair employment" and "fair housing" laws, laws about discrimination based on things like race or gender) is the distinction between "equality of opportunity" and "equality of outcome". That's generally the distinction between, say, an anti-discrimination law and affirmative action.
I am the 99%.
We are all equal in value, in worth, in common courtesy, etc.
But we are not all the same.
And the word fair should be banished from the human lexicon. The world is not fair. It cannot be made fair. Accept this and your life will be worlds better.
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I think a lot of it is about economic status and where that fits with cultural expectation. Regarding education, I think, on average, children from middle class (or higher SES) households are expected to go to college, even if they are not intellectually suited to it (read: half of my high school). Kids from lower SECs have opportunity to go to college, but probably have to be more self-motivated and remain more dedicated. After all, they are are more likely to be competing with kids who came from better public schools, and they are probably more likely to have to work during their college years.
I think there is an element of entitlement among the middle class that their kids will go to college and get jobs that will keep them in the middle class. I think poorer parents are just as likely to value higher education, but don't think about it as a given as much as middle class parents. I think poorer kids tend to see college as more of an uphill battle.
I also think it's abysmal that college is basically a requirement for entry to even the lower middle class in this country. What does that say about the state of public education?
Oh, that is fantastic. This...this is wine. Yeah. Look what all these idiots are drinking. Look at these dicks! Obviously it's not really delicious, like hot chocolate or Coke, but for wine...brilliant.
I totally agree. You cannot force equal outcomes.
I don't really see how our education system is the same, fair or equal for all in our society. The relegation of a child in a failing public school is most certainly not similar to matching a kid with a school that aligns their abilities and desire.
As a mom who is hearing this from the kids lately, I'm drilling it quite often that hardly ever about being fair. What it IS about is how you handle each situation and try to improve it to the best of your ability.
Careful, HAB - you spouting those strictly Republican ideals above. It's so very extreme.
It's not fair!!! :-P
But I agree with Momi on equality of opportunity vs outcome, although I know we differ greatly on how that should be implemented and what it really means.
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Actually I think the reason you got the responses you did is because you assumed, wrongly so, that democrats viewed equal outcomes as fair. And that we somehow never got around to teaching our kids that life wasn't fair.
I definately agree with all of this.
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She said of George HB Bush that he was born on third base and thought he hit a triple.
One thing I'm finding interesting in this post is all the Republicans saying "Suck it up, life isn't fair" - why do so many Republicans I know complain about affirmative action constantly, instead of just sucking it up?
Equal isn't always fair.
The best example of this is a student who is blind. It would be pretty stupid to hand out a textbook and say "well, this is what all of the other students get. It would be unfair of me to give you a book written in braille, because all the other students are getting the original version."
I would hope that there is not a person alive who would think that was okay.
And if SD's other parent does not save for her, she will probably view your decision as unequal and unfair, as might her mother. She may view it this way even if her mother does save - let's say she has to have student loans your DD does not. This is the problem with both concepts in many cases, and the crux of why both parties have a difficult time agreeing on issues as they realate to equality and fairness - perception often defines both. Not always, but often.
About the affirmative action comment... not sure that I agree with your conclusion. IMO-- life is not fair. AA is not one of my hot button issues (ie- don't really have that strong of an opinion) but generally I think that we should always hire the best person for a job. I think racial, gender, ethnic, etc discrimination is wrong and I certainly think it should be illegal to not hire someone because of one of those characteristics, but I also don't really like the idea of one of those characteristic being the reason that someone is hired either. I just don't think those characteristics should be any part of the hiring decision at all. Because I don't see the person's race/gender, etc as relevant to that decision, I don't think it is the same as it is not about being equal or the same or even fair. Obviously this is just my opinion. As I said though, I don't really complain about AA and don't generally care much one way or the other and would never make a voting decision based on a candidate's AA views.
oooh, let's do this again! That was fun.
I agree with you. Honestly-who knows what the futrure will hold? SD is 10, DD is 13 months. A whole lot can change in that timeframe that would make our current thoughts moot.
We have always been told that her mother and grandparents had a college fund set up for her, but she has since had 2 more kids, so who knows what they are doing.
I think this is a misconception of what affirmative action is supposed to do. I also think that many workplaces and schools have not done a good job in implementing diversity practices which ultimately could result in the scenarios you cited above.
I agree in theory, but the issue is that many of the people doing the hiring don't. Old habits die hard, and sometimes the only way to get enough women and people of color into a profession or into a school, where they can show others that race and gender shouldn't matter, is through policies like affirmative action.
Climbing a ladder at the same speed is not equal when one person started out in a hole. At some point, the person who started at ground-level has to stop moving while other other person catches up. It's not fair, but neither was the advantage that one person had in the first place.
That said, it's not really very strong on my political radar, either.
Oh, that is fantastic. This...this is wine. Yeah. Look what all these idiots are drinking. Look at these dicks! Obviously it's not really delicious, like hot chocolate or Coke, but for wine...brilliant.
wow, I got that wrong!
I am the 99%.
I guess if the bolded is the assumption then it is probably more like the US public school system than I thought. : ).
FYI - I wasn't judging you or anything, I'd probably make the same decision in your shoes given your circumstances. It was just a really good example in terms of how equality and fairness can be very subjective.
No worries. I didn't take it as anything other than good discussion.
You sure posted on the right day otherwise you sure as hell would get flamed for this. It's not fair. Unless your SD is actually getting college money from her mother. But you said "should be" which leads me to believe its not happening. The fact that this is to remain hushed up is also evidence that you know this is inherently unfair.
no. I tell my students this all the time. Fair is NOT equal. They are two different concepts.
For example, a student might get extra time on a test because of a learning disability. Their time is not equal to their classmates, but it is helping to level the playing field. They need it because of their disability. It helps make it more fair. Sometimes things have to be unequal in some ways in order to be fair.