Our tech team has launched updates to The Nest today. As a result of these updates, members of the Nest Community will need to change their password in order to continue participating in the community. In addition, The Nest community member's avatars will be replaced with generic default avatars. If you wish to revert to your original avatar, you will need to re-upload it via The Nest.
If you have questions about this, please email help@theknot.com.
Thank you.
Note: This only affects The Nest's community members and will not affect members on The Bump or The Knot.
For anyone still up: Let's talk Areligious Modesty!
I know, religion seems to be the IT TOPIC today, ha.
So.. a little back story. One of my friends is married to a Muslim man who was born in the middle east, but his family came to the USA when he was around 11 years old. My friend is Christian and doesn't really abide by a lot of her H's religious tenants, she eats pork, she doesn't wear the habib, she doesn't participate in Ramadan, when he made his pilgrimage he went with his brother and she didn't go with him, and so on. A few weeks ago we all got talking about modesty.
He made the comment that casual modesty seems to have very little to do with religiousness in the West, but that purposeful modesty is demonized and seen largely as archaic, sexist, and oppressive regardless of the woman's own choices. He cited me as an example- that I'm an atheist, but I dress modestly, in fact much more modestly than his own wife who is a Christian, but it's never really something that causes a person to make a value judgment on me or my faith (or lack thereof), but because I only do it "casually" (though I sort of disagree with him in that I think if I wore my hair covered by a scarf and not by hats as I typically do when out and about, I'd be judged more).
From there we got onto the discussion of whether purposeful modesty from an Areligious (i.e. no religious motivation) standpoint would invoke the same kind of wrath/negative view, whether it would draw more ire, and finally, whether it would draw anger from religious people as a sort of appropriation of their values (similar to a non-Jewish person getting married under a chuppah kind of deal).
So, what say you, PCE? If a bunch of secular women suddenly started dressing a lot more modestly, covering their hair when out and about, and a lot of the trappings of "stereotypical" religious modesty while openly doing so for completely non-religious reasoning, what would your reaction be? How do you think society/people in general would react (in the west)? What about very religious people?
Re: For anyone still up: Let's talk Areligious Modesty!
My anecdotal experience as a religious woman dressing modestly is that I feel most judged by other religious women, especially other Christian women without the same convictions. I think that other Christians feel like it reflects poorly on them or that you are judging them/trying to be more pious if you choose to live this way and they are critical of it.
I have also felt judged by some women in more conservative areas (like Mennonites or Amish) who must think my more "modern" modest attire is too worldly. Maybe they think it's better to just be of the world than to try to do modesty "incorrectly"? I don't know.
But since I don't wear a hijab that makes me look Muslim or a cap that makes me look Mennonite, most people in public don't know that I dress the way I do for religious reasons (not all the time, sometimes I think the scarves and long jean skirt are a red flag). I feel like people don't really treat me differently dressed this way at all. Sometimes if my headcovering is strange (like a snood) people will stare, but I think they are just wondering why I have such a strange fashion sense.
As a religious woman who does dress this way, if you as an athiest said you had the same convictions I would think it was cool. A woman can be modest without religion.
I think, to an extent, this is true even in more conservative cultures. I tend to dress differently outside the US than I do in it regardless of whether I'm visiting a Hindu, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim or Christian country. That said I very rarely cover my head unless it is required by law or required by my employer for safety/acceptance purposes. People tend to recognize that I'm not of their religion or culture but nonetheless am making an effort at modesty and they regularly comment on it in a positive light.
The very same (very religious!) people will comment (in a country where, for example hijabs are the norm, but niqabs are not) negatively about niqab or abaya wearing women in their midst because they are seen as portraying their common religion in a negative light. I think in a world where fundamentalists of various religions (not just Muslims) have caused civil strife and international incidents conservative but not fundamentalist members of those religions can react negatively to those perceived to be radicals in their midst, and women's appearances often are the most immediately apparent indicators of perceived radicalism.
I was told by his brother that he'd be extra critical of modesty from an areligious point because of appropriation reasons. His argument was that most reasons for covering yourself center from a place of faith whether you recognize the connection or not.
As a faithless person myself, I tried to argue that my own dress sense came more from a place of personal comfort, but it admittedly came out pretty weak.
So to AW.. would you wonder/think if an atheist woman told you it was purely personal, nothing spiritual or religious, that she dressed modestly, that maybe there was actually something spiritual/religious behind it that even she didn't recognize? I promise not to flame you, LOL!
I think this is a little different.. while visiting Italy, I kept 2 scarves with me, one I wrapped around my waist to cover my legs and another to cover my head, neck, and shoulders while visiting the various cathedrals. I did get a lot of approving nods and comments but I saw it and see it more as cultural sesensitivity, whereas in the US, purposeful modesty is almost viewed as a counter-cultural action.
I don't judge people who dress modestly. Most of my friends do. I mean, if one of my friends started wearing "mom jeans," I'd be a little confused. But overall, most of the people I socialize with don't wear overly tight jeans, cleavage-baring tops, etc.
If one of my friends started covering her hair, I would assume it's because she got sick of "doing" her hair. LOL. I guess I would find it odd, since throwing your hair in a ponytail is just as easy.
I can totally see wanting to dress modestly for areligious reasons, if it means you don't get harassed while you're walking down the street. Given our society the way it is, anyone should be free to make that choice for themselves.
I'm pretty sure that's what Kuus does all the time with her sweatpants, or at least that's what I've decided of my own volition.
I'm not certain if I dress very modestly and by whose standards. I wear low cut tops because I have a nice chestular region, and I want to accentuate what I have. But I never ever show my belly because a.) I'm 28 years old and not 18, and b.) I am chunky. So I feel that I mostly dress more on the conservative side because of my discomfort with my own body.
I would do more sleeveless stuff, shorter skirts, etc if I felt more comfortable with myself.
I would counter (in a non-offensive way) that modesty in religion or not comes from a discomfort with female bodies/sexuality. Whether it's trying to keep men from lusting or keeping women's bodies for their homes/husbands, it is definitely a sexuality thing in essence.
So because I'm an atheist I must immediately shorten my skirts by a foot? His brother is crazy.
No. I think there are many reasons to dress modestly that have nothing to do with religion. Maybe you're uncomfortable with your body or sexuality. Maybe you just think it's inappropriate to dress provocatively. Maybe you like having your hair covered to protect your head from the sun or to avoid doing your hair. I wouldn't jump immediately to "that woman is religious" if I saw you dressed modestly.
I think modesty is a virtue like humility, faithfulness or anything else. People can be faithful or humble without religion, so why can't people be modest as well?
I agree with the bolded.
The idea of being offended by someone else dressing modestly for reasons other than your own doesn't compute for me. I live in a country where it is illegal for a woman to go out without being covered in the appropriate dress and every time I go out in public I have to bring a scarf to avoid run-ins with the religious police. It doesn't matter if you're Muslim or not, you are expected to dress the part.
Isn't it a beautiful thing in the U.S. that we have the freedom to dress as we like- including everything from wearing an abaya because that is what you feel comfortable in to wearing bikinis at the beach because that's what you prefer? Not that I'm trying to deny that women in the U.S. are judged by what they wear, whether by bigots or just nosy insecure people. But while that certainly does happen, I (perhaps naively) like to believe that it is a part of our culture to embrace freedom of expression, even when what we are trying to express may differ from the next person wearing a similar outfit.