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FAT THURSDAY: Dating While Fat And Feminist
Annnnnnnd let's go! (sorry Mer!)
The following excerpt appeared on The Crunk Feminist Collective?s blog:
Because desire is socially constructed (no matter how much folks justify their limited dating choices based on ?natural preference?), the fact that we live in a fat-hating culture greatly affects who we?re attracted to, and what we find attractive. The idea that we?re only attractive within a range of sizes is absurd. And narrow. And it is absolutely a function of patriarchy. And yet, I live daily with those realities.
Some (admittedly anecdotal) examples:
Several months ago I was in a bar/lounge type spot, with a group of 7 or 8 homegirls. We ranged in size and skin tone, from short and petite, to tall and lanky, from light-skinned to dark-skinned, from skinny to fat (me being the fat one), and everything in between. The homeboy of one of my homegirls happened to be in the club. Now in many ways, he was my type. Mid-height, stocky, dark-skinned, bald-headed. My girl gave us his vital statistics and it turns out the brother is highly intelligent and very accomplished. He was also a natural flirt. This I discovered, as I watched him at different points during the evening, strike up a conversation and flirt with every single girl in the crew?except me. My homegirl indicated to me at some point that I should make sure to meet him, because she thought we?d have similar interests. Not one to be shy, I did at some point attempt to strike up a conversation. He barely acknowledged me! I mean he literally didn?t look me in the eye, made no real attempt at conversation, and pretty much gave me the brush off. And starting talking to another one of my homegirls!
It was clear to me that he wasn?t really that interested in a serious thing with any of the girls at the bar that night. He was just doing the bar/lounge thing, as was I. But why the cold shoulder, from a brother I?d never met? Why the unique snub reserved for the one fat girl in the crew? I wish I could say that this experience was isolated, but it?s been more the rule rather than the exception for me.
(Two)
I think of all that CRUNK club-hopping I did in ATL back in the early days of the CFC. Nothing can make me dance with abandon like a smoke-filled club strung out on CRUNK. And when me and my girls would go and shut the club down, routinely, I?d be the only chick that hadn?t been approached, danced with, hit on. Now I never thought I?d find my prince charming in a club. But everyone likes to be desired. So no matter how much Big Boi proclaimed back in 2003 that ?Big Girls need love, too,? I don?t think the other ATLiens got the message.
(Three)
And of course there is that story of the time that Crunkadelic and I went to one of those Big Beautiful Women parties. But um, I?m not trying to date a dude with a fat fetish. No hate on fetishes, but being the object of that particular one feels?objectifying. I want to date a man that has a range of desires wide enough to see a big girl as attractive. Just like I find a range of men attractive.
Getting back to Big Boi, the reality is that Big Girls do need love. This big girl anyway. So as much as I resent the limited range of desire that it seems (Black) men have and the ever-present male privilege that allows them to never have to interrogate their sexual and romantic investments, I hate my limited partnering prospects much more. As un-feminist as I?m sure it is, and as much my Sagittarian self wants to say f**k the world and embrace my life of singleness in a blaze of principled feminist big girl glory, the #truestory is that I?m seriously trying to figure out how I can get my J.Hud on. (Well, maybe not to that extreme!) In my thirties, I?m prioritizing self-care and that includes being loved on and getting my groove on. Regularly. And I know for sure that those things are feminist. I also know being thinner won?t guarantee me a date, but I?m willing to bet it?ll improve my chances. [source]
It?s a really hard thing to admit, and it?s a really nasty realization that one of the things you stand against, as a feminist, is also one of the things you still have to live with and grapple with in order to live the life you want.
I?ve written about it before ? the fact that, the smaller I got, the more likely it was that men who weren?t even trying to hear me like that before now wanted to ?be down? in different ways. In the Huffington Post feature on me, I talked about being at a sorority event (which, after a 7-month and 90lb disappearance, was a bit like a ?big unveiling?) and men were touching me in entirely different ways. I spoke about this on my appearance on Michael Baisden?s show. In both the HuffPo comments and on the show, the sentiment was the same: ?they didn?t want to touch you like that before because you were fat. Duh.?
It?s kind of soul crushing. As a big girl, you?re often shielded from the kinds of things people say about big girls because the people who love you [and, assumedly, want to see you happy] aren?t going to say any foolishness like that to you. No one wants to hurt your feelings like that.
Dating while considerably smaller is? interesting. Especially when, as I?ve had to do, you explain to someone that you blog about weight loss because you used to be over 300lbs.
?Wow, I could never see you as being so fat.?
?Were you single during that whole time? Or?.what??
?Soooooo? you?re never gonna gain that weight again, right??
It?s hard to be oblivious to the change in the tone and context that people use to discuss weight ? or fatness, rather ? at a smaller size, because the conversation is much less about ?health? and much more about ?these fat b-tches are so unappealing to my precious eyes! Get them treadmills, stat!? As a big girl, whenever you hear ?weight? it?s about ?health.? It?s always [insert list of diseases]. But, the smaller I became, it was more about ?Oh, so you?re out here getting these fat Black women into shape, huh??
In fact, when you?re in a position like mine, you start to notice a lot about people?s dating habits. You also wind up making friends with guys who admit their dating preferences freely, knowing that ? since you?re no longer fat ? they won?t offend you. I?ve had men admit to me that they get chewed out for dating so many non-Black women, but they don?t seek out women who are simply non-Black ? they seek out women who are fit. They seek out women who work out. They meet women and make friends in the gym, the one place where they spend all their non-work time, and want a partner that not only understands that but will be right there with him?working out. They don?t want a partner who complains about how much time they spend ?up in the gym, just workin? on their fitness.? You and I might know that now, but I certainly didn?t know it before.
You also start to notice the pairs on the subway, late on a ?date night,? out together. Him, in his cardigan, bowtie and hat? her, in her cute dress, jacket and heels. Neither one overweight.
You also start to hear stories of how some men only ?use? overweight Black girls as a ?last resort,? meaning that if a guy can?t pull a more socially-approved-as-sexy-looking-woman, he?ll go to her because at least he knows ?I?ll get laid tonight, and breakfast tomorrow.? You start to find out how some men manipulate society?s fat-hating culture into a way to skate by without accepting any responsibility for anything: ?if fat Black women are considered the least worthy of love and affection, then if I choose one, she?ll do anything and tolerate anything to keep me.?
How do I hear all of this? People often misjudge me as one of those people who loses weight and now ?hates? fat people to the point where I would high-five them for telling me these things.
Big girls have to live, date and eventually love in this environment. It?s especially difficult as a feminist ? admitting you?re doing it because you want to benefit from the patriarchal bargain of being more of what men want to look at ? because during 22.5 hours of the day, you?re fighting the patriarchy? but there?s an hour and a half of the day you?re working hard to increase your ability to benefit from it.
Hard as a feminist?hell, it?s hard as a Black person, period ? the higher up the assimilation scale you go, the more you realize there are fewer and fewer people wo look like you period, let alone overweight people. With upper-middle-classdom, ostensibly, there is the time required to commit to your fitness, or at least the money available to make sure you ?don?t gain weight,? whatever that means.
The point, truthfully, is that dating is far more complex than that when you?ve got the advantage. Think about it. We?re beat over the head with the idea that there are only twelve ?Good Black Men? out there, and we?re all clamoring for them. ?Good Black Man? is never defined clearly, and any dude with a job, a car, and a studio apartment think he?s ?good? and has the right to choose who and what he wants? and he wants the thing that society says is most desirable. Unfortunately that means, for certain men in certain cities with certain careers, certain traits get you sent straight out of the window.
Trust me? I know. When I?m in NYC, men love my ?fro (which extends well beyond my shoulders in width.) I took my ?fro to Indianapolis? Um?let?s just say that there were plenty people in general giving me the gas face. Men in finance, as opposed to, say, a man in customer service? A man with a higher-up position in a company as opposed to a peon? I?m just sayin??holding up society?s standards start to matter more, the higher up you get. Messy, messy, messy.
Do I think the blogger, nicknamed ?Crunktastic,? is right to make this decision? I don?t think it?s my place to determine right and wrong for someone else? because, just as I can judge based on what she?s written, I also have to remember that for every word written, there?s almost always five other words not being written. I think a few things will happen, though: I think, for starters, she?ll be pretty grossed out by how quickly men who have always been present in her life will start to approach her differently; secondly, I think she?ll be annoyed by the new-found ?thin-privilege? she may experience depending upon how far down she chooses to rest her weight; and thirdly, I think she?ll be more skeptical of the men she does encounter in wondering if they would like her if she was heavier?and what that says about their character.
The comments over there are full of gems so, please, do check it out and see what they?re saying. I?m also interested in what experiences y?all have had with dating and what you?ve heard people saying about dating and size preferences. Think I?m off the mark, here? Let?s hear it!
Re: FAT THURSDAY: Dating While Fat And Feminist
Huh. This is interesting to me because in my experience, there are plenty of black guys who like big girls.
But I do agree with them that the thinner you are, the more you'll hear the truth about the way people feel about fat women. Sadly, the reverse isn't always true about fat men.
That being said, I find fat men are often hands down, the fuuking worst. They blather on about how unfair and mean and sad it is that girls prefer "ass.holes" to "nice" guys. But when you look closer, you realize it's because they're only talking to "hot" girls. They wail on about how these girls won't give them a chance but you ever see them hitting up someone who doesn't fit the typical beauty standard? No. But they gonna biitch anyway.
My friend is like this. Well, he's been decidedly less my friend since I realized it. But boy is in his mid thirties and still single, hasn't have a girlfriend since I've known him (going on 12 years now.) Why? Because he only deals with nubile, skinny little flirt things who put him firmly in the friends only category. He talks smack about how they don't take him seriously because he's too nice and he's not typical hot, etc and yet he does the same thing to other women.
Click me, click me!
This is an interesting theory and I'd say there's definately some truth to that.
After all, is it really enough to be not fat and healthy? Oftentimes, you'd also need a certain body type, look, and figure to go with it.
Click me, click me!
That's always been my experience as well.
I'm wondering if it's a socio-economic thing or something. One of the women specifically mentioned what sounded like some hipsters. In any case, I got the impression she was looking at a dating pool that involved suspenders, bow ties, oxford shoes, and skinny pants. I have no dealings while that type so IDK but plenty of black guys I know are all about the bigger girls. I'm thinking especially of my uncles and brothers (like of my mother, not brothas lol)
ETA: I should add that one of my uncles and of my brothers prefer white girls but even then, still big girls. And trust me, we aren't talking about larger but still healthy girls.
Also, most of the interracial white woman/black man pairings I see involve a bigger white girl.
Click me, click me!
All of my guy single guy friends wanted nothing to do with my single girl friends. Let us relive a conversation shall we: Let's call my friend "John." John is a tall, decent looking guy, a little nerdy, but overall would be a great catch. Never been married. College educated. No kids. He's Black. He's also not one to cheat. In other words, prime shark meat.
John: "Hey, you got any friends you can hook me up with?"
Me: "I don't know. I mean, I do have some single friends. What are you looking for? My friend Tasha is a great person."
John: "You know, smart, independent, funny, not needy."
Me: "Ok. Tasha then. She's sweet, determined, funny."
John: "Ok, but umm, is she built like you?"
Me: *puzzled look* "What do you mean?"
John: "Is she a big girl? Because lots of women here in town are 'big' and I just don't want that. I prefer a slender build."
Me: "Well dude. I can't help you with that."
Conversation over.
I've had the same conversation with two other male friends. Both of them are black. They don't seem to mind having a little meat on your bones, but after size 10, they get iffy because they start seeing "What if we get married and she has a baby, will the weight come off?"
And I have a friend who was pretty slender in college and had her pick of men. She had a kid, never lost the baby weight and I can't tell you the trainwreck of complaints she's had about men and those relationships. Each time I hear from other guys "Well, if she lost some weight."
***disclaimer***
The views above do not represent the views of the author. The former comments were things told to the author by other individuals. The author claims no personal responsibility and is held harmless from any liability related to hurt feelings or side-eyes from PCE posters.
I thought hipsters were a college/recent grad phenomenon. No? Either way, not my crowd.
The socio-economic thing sounds like a reasonable theory. Most of the black dudes I know are around my tax bracket and still like their ladies larger. Something to ponder.
I was thinking this too, not just about fat men. When I used to bartend I saw all.the.time where someone would either spend time striking out or sitting there morose waiting to be hit on, then come over and b!tch about how unfair it was that guys/girls don't like them because they are tall/short/skinny/fat/whatever. We'd end up with a half dozen or more "solos" sitting around the bar being pissed. Try and play matchmaker, though, and damned if "Hey, you know, I think that girl/guy at the end of the bar is alone, why don't you buy her/him a drink?" didn't always end with "Uh...no...not my type."
This article made me cry, but especially this:
"Dating while considerably smaller is? interesting. Especially when, as I?ve had to do, you explain to someone that you blog about weight loss because you used to be over 300lbs.
?Wow, I could never see you as being so fat.?
?Were you single during that whole time? Or?.what??
?Soooooo? you?re never gonna gain that weight again, right??
I am sorta lucky, I guess. The majority of my weight came off while I was already with H (although I think I expressed in a different post how that makes me feel insecure, just like a woman who has gained a lot of weight during her marriage feels concerned). The way I've experienced it is when I've told people since I've lost the majority (I don't really do it anymore for a variety of reasons). Those kind of comments ..... sting.
You know how we do
I only recently stopped bartending and I got so sick of this I just called people out on it, though in my experience it was mostly guys who did it. I bartended at a pub and not a lounge/club/meatmarket so that also influenced my annoyance level, but I'd get old men complaining that some girls a few tables over who were like half their age gave them the cold shoulder ("Don't tell me you're too surprised at that one, gramps" and variations thereof was my pat response) and a lot of fat guys of varying degrees of attractiveness complaining that there were no hot girls who hung out there, when at least to me that was the furthest thing from the truth.. they just weren't wearing microdresses and getting sloppy on a dance floor. For those guys I'd usually give them a ration of *** about being an ultra-lounge douche.
Side-note you'd think this would have bombed my tips but maybe it's just because it was Boston, they'd almost always end up laughing and try to "get me back" so I don't think they thought I was being serious, though I was certainly side-eying them hard.
Aww, gpointe.
Of course it stings. It was still you. People are assy.
I know we're kinda focusing on the fat and black portions of this article...but the fat and feminist part kinda reminded me of this:
this beauty/fashion/body image blogger had a recent post about body hair:
http://www.alreadypretty.com/2012/04/body-hair-revisited.html
It's about how she knows academically, that the image of woman as smooth and hairless in order to be attractive is a total BS social construct. Just like only thin women are beautiful. or only light skinned woman are beautiful. or whatever BS has been laid on us. She knows that. she spends all day trying to fight against that and refute it. And yet....she feels 10x better with her "excess" body hair removed. So she has it removed. And she's happier. And that's great.
But at the same time if your "calling" so to speak is to help people feel better about their bodies and love themselves despite the BS of ridiculous social expectations - does it make you a hypocrite to set out to remove that hair (or lose that weight) to quiet your society driven inner voices? Is it better to just do what makes you feel good and "fighting the man" be damned?
I'm of the opinion that you do what makes you feel good, so no, she's not a hypocrite. And body hair doesn't quite equal weight. But it felt relevant. thoughts?
side note: the topic is something that this blogger struggles with a lot. She spends a lot of her "tips and tricks" type wardrobe posts hemming and hawing about how yes, x, y and z will emphasize this and draw attention away from that, but you don't HAVE to do that. I don't actually love her OOTD posts most days, but I keep her in my reader for the thoughtfulness she puts into her blog.
Not that anybody will actually see this since it's 6:30 PM, but hey...I'm home and I finally get to post something, I'm gonna do it!
My Goodness...another food blog. Featuring: Macarons from a old post with a photo taken by my mom for a break from my crappy food photos!
Re: excess hair/hair removal.
I actually kind of have a bone to pick with people who assert that a lot of our beauty rituals are modern things, including hair removal. Hair removal is a part of quite a few cultures that are incredibly old- for instance in a lot of middle eastern cultures, sugaring as a form of the total removal of all a woman's body hair is pretty traditional and dates back a long, long, long time. Of course it could still be construed as patriarchal but it's certainly not somethink Schick invented just to sell women razors and shaving cream. Same with hair bleaching, the removal of hair using techniques like threading, scraping hair from legs with shells and sharpened rocks, etc. Hair removal techniques for women (and at times men) can be found across a lot of cultures from various far-flung corners of the globe. The same can be said for the wearing of cosmetics, dying hair, and even doing things to make a permanent cosmetic alteration (tattooing, piercing, stretching, etc) to the way a person looks. While it's certainly gotten much more commercial and away from a lot of the social roots and ritualistic meanings, it's not exactly new and I would say at this point is only at some points a matter of patriarchy but largely a matter of just what it means to be human.
Interesting. I've never thought about that, though I did know that many ancient cultures did all kinds of body mod.
thoughts. I have them. i'm a beer and a half in on an empty stomach though, so they aren't getting articulated at the moment.
My Goodness...another food blog. Featuring: Macarons from a old post with a photo taken by my mom for a break from my crappy food photos!
I get like that after a few sangrias, lol!
Don't get me wrong- I'm not saying current beauty standards or even ancient beauty practices that survive to today aren't rooted in something thats patriarchal or shizzy, just that I take issue with any assertion that it's all modern and not something a little more socially complicated, if that makes sense.
I like wawa on liquor. Let's discuss this further.
Click me, click me!
can't. Need to go make deviled eggs.
I'm crabby because I'm not pregnant, so I decided to drink some beers to uncelebrate. Of course I did that before I figured out what was for dinner. (H is working late) I think I'm having cereal and another beer for dinner. But first there will be eggs. (work bbq tomorrow)
My Goodness...another food blog. Featuring: Macarons from a old post with a photo taken by my mom for a break from my crappy food photos!
My Goodness...another food blog. Featuring: Macarons from a old post with a photo taken by my mom for a break from my crappy food photos!