Dual citizenship (US side of things)

kelly321 · April 2012

Here's an interesting comment on dual citizenship by the DoS:

http://travel.state.gov/travel/cis_pa_tw/cis/cis_1753.html

Here are the most pertinent paragraphs:

"A U.S. citizen may acquire foreign citizenship by marriage, or a person naturalized as a U.S. citizen may not lose the citizenship of the country of birth.U.S. law does not mention dual nationality or require a person to choose one citizenship or another. Also, a person who is automatically granted another citizenship does not risk losing U.S. citizenship. However, a person who acquires a foreign citizenship by applying for it may lose U.S. citizenship. In order to lose U.S. citizenship, the law requires that the person must apply for the foreign citizenship voluntarily, by free choice, and with the intention to give up U.S. citizenship.

Intent can be shown by the person's statements or conduct.The U.S. Government recognizes that dual nationality exists but does not encourage it as a matter of policy because of the problems it may cause. Claims of other countries on dual national U.S. citizens may conflict with U.S. law, and dual nationality may limit U.S. Government efforts to assist citizens abroad. The country where a dual national is located generally has a stronger claim to that person's allegiance."

So my question -- if I were to voluntarily choose to get German citizenship with the intention of keeping my US citizenship as well and be a dual citizen, then they couldn't take my citizenship away? The intent part confuses me.

ETA: I totally forgot to mention that I was posting this as a separate thread because the dual citizenship debate sort of snuck in to elenxtu's post on green cards.

kelly321 · April 2012

Embarrassed By clicking on another link on that page I posted above, I came across this:

"In light of the administrative premise discussed above, a person who:

is naturalized in a foreign country;
takes a routine oath of allegiance to a foreign state;
serves in the armed forces of a foreign state not engaged in hostilities with the United States, or
accepts non-policy level employment with a foreign government,

and in so doing wishes to retain U.S. citizenship need not submit prior to the commission of a potentially expatriating act a statement or evidence of his or her intent to retain U.S. citizenship since such an intent will be presumed."

In other words, I could become a German citizen as well and still keep my US citizenship. Cool - I honestly had no idea that was possible! Now to run off and check German laws...

ctgirlingermany · April 2012

Unless something has changed really recently, the German government requires you to renounce your citizenship in order to gain German citizenship. I would have become a German if I could.

kelly321 · April 2012

ctgirlingermany:
Unless something has changed really recently, the German government requires you to renounce your citizenship in order to gain German citizenship. I would have become a German if I could.

Yep, I just read that too. Boo, Germany.

Stellina+Amour · April 2012

The way I understand it is that you would fall into the category of persons that are *granted* another citizenship (through your spouse), as opposed to the ones that acquire it after having applied individually, so you wouldn't lose your US one. If for instance I became a US citizen (which would not be granted but acquired through application) and then went on to individually apply for say Japanese citizenship, that would cause me to lose the US one.

Edited for clarity

bluegirl2006 · April 2012

My understanding (and this is not a legal opinion) is that that US government operates basically on a "don't ask, don't tell" policy. As long as you use your US passport every time you enter the States, you shouldn't run into trouble.

allibally · April 2012

bluegirl2006:
My understanding (and this is not a legal opinion) is that that US government operates basically on a "don't ask, don't tell" policy. As long as you use your US passport every time you enter the States, you shouldn't run into trouble.

That's how I've always seen it too. They kind of turn a blind eye to it. I often think of it as don't ask, don't tell.

I'm will not personally be dealing with this issue. Since I can't gain citizenship in Germany without losing my US one. And my only other plausible option would be Swiss citizenship. But you need to live there pretty long. While I see us maybe going back... it would never be likely for more than 3 years.

frlcb · April 2012

bluegirl2006:
My understanding (and this is not a legal opinion) is that that US government operates basically on a "don't ask, don't tell" policy. As long as you use your US passport every time you enter the States, you shouldn't run into trouble.

This is true. As long as you enter and leave the US on your US passport they pay no attention to what other citizenship you hold.

kelly321 · April 2012

frlcb:
bluegirl2006:
My understanding (and this is not a legal opinion) is that that US government operates basically on a "don't ask, don't tell" policy. As long as you use your US passport every time you enter the States, you shouldn't run into trouble.
This is true. As long as you enter and leave the US on your US passport they pay no attention to what other citizenship you hold.

But to me it doesn't even sound like a "don't ask, don't tell" (which implies that it's not ok but as long as they don't know then there are no consequences). It sounds like it's fine according to that DoS statement I linked.

frlcb · April 2012

kelly321:
frlcb:
bluegirl2006:
My understanding (and this is not a legal opinion) is that that US government operates basically on a "don't ask, don't tell" policy. As long as you use your US passport every time you enter the States, you shouldn't run into trouble.
This is true. As long as you enter and leave the US on your US passport they pay no attention to what other citizenship you hold.
But to me it doesn't even sound like a "don't ask, don't tell" (which implies that it's not ok but as long as they don't know then there are no consequences). It sounds like it's fine according to that DoS statement I linked.

When you obtain dual citizenship you take an oath that states this:

I hereby declare, on oath, that I absolutely and entirely renounce and abjure all allegiance and fidelity to any foreign prince, potentate, state, or sovereignty of whom or which I have heretofore been a subject or citizen

I think prior to the early 80s they required people to give up another citizenship, then they stopped following up on it. So technically it is kind of both, don't ask, don't tell, and they don't really care.

wise_rita · April 2012

kelly321:
frlcb:
bluegirl2006:
My understanding (and this is not a legal opinion) is that that US government operates basically on a "don't ask, don't tell" policy. As long as you use your US passport every time you enter the States, you shouldn't run into trouble.
This is true. As long as you enter and leave the US on your US passport they pay no attention to what other citizenship you hold.
But to me it doesn't even sound like a "don't ask, don't tell" (which implies that it's not ok but as long as they don't know then there are no consequences). It sounds like it's fine according to that DoS statement I linked.

They would literally never know if you had a 2nd citizenship.

As an American you always have to enter/exit on your American passport. At no time do they ask about other citizenships, how/when they were obtained or request to see your foreign papers.

They would never know. Or care.

glitterfart · April 2012

kelly321:

ctgirlingermany:
Unless something has changed really recently, the German government requires you to renounce your citizenship in order to gain German citizenship. I would have become a German if I could.

Yep, I just read that too. Boo, Germany.

Kelly, you can apply for an exemption, (I think it?s undue hardship?) but it?s an Ermessensfrage, and sort of hard to do. I have a friend who did it, but she works for the govt. and has some things that she does in Washington that she does which she wouldn?t be able to do if she weren?t an American.

Someone involved in the local govt. here told me that if I was interested, to let them know and they would help me with the paperwork. But I?m really not that interested, and it seems like a big PITA. But possible.

kelly321 · April 2012

glitterfart:
kelly321:

ctgirlingermany:
Unless something has changed really recently, the German government requires you to renounce your citizenship in order to gain German citizenship. I would have become a German if I could.

Yep, I just read that too. Boo, Germany.

Kelly, you can apply for an exemption, (I think it?s undue hardship?) but it?s an Ermessensfrage, and sort of hard to do. I have a friend who did it, but she works for the govt. and has some things that she does in Washington that she does which she wouldn?t be able to do if she weren?t an American.
Someone involved in the local govt. here told me that if I was interested, to let them know and they would help me with the paperwork. But I?m really not that interested, and it seems like a big PITA. But possible.

Yeah, I doubt I would be able to get an exemption just because I don't want to give up my US citizenship. :-) The only reason I would want the German one, too, is that there are some nice translating contracts for the EU that are only available to EU citizens.

ETA: You know, as a political scientist it's kind of embarrassing that I don't say "I want citizenship to vote and have a say in the country where I live." But, um... I don't really care at the moment. That's sad.

elenetxu · April 2012

Yeah, the only reason I would want Spanish citizenship is to take advantage of some of the neat opportunities they have for Spanish citizens to work at Cervantes Institute locations, and/or International Spanish Academies that are only available to Spanish citizens.

NCV2 · April 2012

elenetxu:
Yeah, the only reason I would want Spanish citizenship is to take advantage of some of the neat opportunities they have for Spanish citizens to work at Cervantes Institute locations, and/or International Spanish Academies that are only available to Spanish citizens.

Do you have to give up the American to get the Spanish?

On a side note you can get Irish citizenship if your grandparent was born there, it's only 175 euro, plus 80 more for the passport. Which is a deal if I ever heard one.

My mom is going through this process now.

Butterbrot · April 2012

kelly321:
ctgirlingermany:
Unless something has changed really recently, the German government requires you to renounce your citizenship in order to gain German citizenship. I would have become a German if I could.
Yep, I just read that too. Boo, Germany.

Exactly. I would get German, too, if I could. I would love to be able to finally vote here.

AmericanInOz · April 2012

wise_rita:
kelly321:
frlcb:

bluegirl2006:
My understanding (and this is not a legal opinion) is that that US government operates basically on a "don't ask, don't tell" policy. As long as you use your US passport every time you enter the States, you shouldn't run into trouble.

This is true. As long as you enter and leave the US on your US passport they pay no attention to what other citizenship you hold.

But to me it doesn't even sound like a "don't ask, don't tell" (which implies that it's not ok but as long as they don't know then there are no consequences). It sounds like it's fine according to that DoS statement I linked.

They would literally never know if you had a 2nd citizenship.

As an American you always have to enter/exit on your American passport. At no time do they ask about other citizenships, how/when they were obtained or request to see your foreign papers.

They would never know. Or care.

Agreed

The only time I was ever asked about why I had more than 1 passport was when getting off a plane in the US and a person at the gate saw I had 2 passports in my hand and wanted to check why (assuming I stole it I guess? weird!)

dpdw · April 2012

frlcb:
kelly321:
frlcb:

bluegirl2006:
My understanding (and this is not a legal opinion) is that that US government operates basically on a "don't ask, don't tell" policy. As long as you use your US passport every time you enter the States, you shouldn't run into trouble.

This is true. As long as you enter and leave the US on your US passport they pay no attention to what other citizenship you hold.

But to me it doesn't even sound like a "don't ask, don't tell" (which implies that it's not ok but as long as they don't know then there are no consequences). It sounds like it's fine according to that DoS statement I linked.

When you obtain dual citizenship you take an oath that states this:

I hereby declare, on oath, that I absolutely and entirely renounce and abjure all allegiance and fidelity to any foreign prince, potentate, state, or sovereignty of whom or which I have heretofore been a subject or citizen

I think prior to the early 80s they required people to give up another citizenship, then they stopped following up on it. So technically it is kind of both, don't ask, don't tell, and they don't really care.

My husband has dual citizenship (US born, Irish parents) and he did not have to take an oath when he first received his Irish passport in the 1980s or when he re-newed it last year.

frlcb · April 2012

dpdw:
frlcb:
kelly321:
frlcb:

bluegirl2006:
My understanding (and this is not a legal opinion) is that that US government operates basically on a "don't ask, don't tell" policy. As long as you use your US passport every time you enter the States, you shouldn't run into trouble.

This is true. As long as you enter and leave the US on your US passport they pay no attention to what other citizenship you hold.

But to me it doesn't even sound like a "don't ask, don't tell" (which implies that it's not ok but as long as they don't know then there are no consequences). It sounds like it's fine according to that DoS statement I linked.

When you obtain dual citizenship you take an oath that states this:

I hereby declare, on oath, that I absolutely and entirely renounce and abjure all allegiance and fidelity to any foreign prince, potentate, state, or sovereignty of whom or which I have heretofore been a subject or citizen

I think prior to the early 80s they required people to give up another citizenship, then they stopped following up on it. So technically it is kind of both, don't ask, don't tell, and they don't really care.

My husband has dual citizenship (US born, Irish parents) and he did not have to take an oath when he first received his Irish passport in the 1980s or when he re-newed it last year.

This is because he is a US citizen by birth. If he was born overseas to non-US citizens, moved to the US and obtained US citizenship then he would have to take this oath. This thread pertains to people obtaining dual citizenship who were born in another country and don't have any biological ties to US citizenship.

Also, for anyone, once you have US citizenship and take the oath you don't retake it when you renew your US passport.

dpdw · April 2012

frlcb:
dpdw:
frlcb:
kelly321:
frlcb:

bluegirl2006:
My understanding (and this is not a legal opinion) is that that US government operates basically on a "don't ask, don't tell" policy. As long as you use your US passport every time you enter the States, you shouldn't run into trouble.

This is true. As long as you enter and leave the US on your US passport they pay no attention to what other citizenship you hold.

But to me it doesn't even sound like a "don't ask, don't tell" (which implies that it's not ok but as long as they don't know then there are no consequences). It sounds like it's fine according to that DoS statement I linked.

When you obtain dual citizenship you take an oath that states this:

I hereby declare, on oath, that I absolutely and entirely renounce and abjure all allegiance and fidelity to any foreign prince, potentate, state, or sovereignty of whom or which I have heretofore been a subject or citizen

I think prior to the early 80s they required people to give up another citizenship, then they stopped following up on it. So technically it is kind of both, don't ask, don't tell, and they don't really care.

My husband has dual citizenship (US born, Irish parents) and he did not have to take an oath when he first received his Irish passport in the 1980s or when he re-newed it last year.

This is because he is a US citizen by birth. If he was born overseas to non-US citizens, moved to the US and obtained US citizenship then he would have to take this oath. This thread pertains to people obtaining dual citizenship who were born in another country and don't have any biological ties to US citizenship.

Also, for anyone, once you have US citizenship and take the oath you don't retake it when you renew your US passport.

Hmm, I must have missed that. I thought the OP was about US-citizens obtaining the citizenship of another country.

kelly321 · April 2012

dpdw:
frlcb:
This is because he is a US citizen by birth. If he was born overseas to non-US citizens, moved to the US and obtained US citizenship then he would have to take this oath. This thread pertains to people obtaining dual citizenship who were born in another country and don't have any biological ties to US citizenship.

Also, for anyone, once you have US citizenship and take the oath you don't retake it when you renew your US passport.

Hmm, I must have missed that. I thought the OP was about US-citizens obtaining the citizenship of another country.

It was, but eh... threads go in different directions and we've got women in lots of different situations.

RyansBelovedBride · April 2012

I'm pretty sure I can never have Indian citizenship, according to their laws, just permanent residency. I can never buy a home there either, we think.

I wonder about how the dual citizenship thing will work out for our kids though. I definitely want our kids to have dual citizenship, at least until 18 when they can make their own decision. As I've understood it the rules on dual citizenship vary widely based on the other country and the US's relationship with them, and of course that countries policies.

The main thing I wonder about is this: we want to adopt. While I know if we lived in the US and adopted from India or any country, they'd become citizens the second they came to the US, what if we adopted from India while living in India? Would they be only Indian citizens and would have to come to America as immigrants not citizens should we ever choose to move? And would the adoption be questioned? I ask that because the US government would not be involved if we were adopting from India while in India, so they may not like the Indian process and consider it equal to the US process... though India is a Hague nation, so maybe that'd be okay. I don't know. We'll look into all that more when the adoption time comes. But dual citizenship confuses me greatly.

Dual citizenship (US side of things)

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