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Intolerant in-laws
Long story short, my in-laws are extremely conservative religious and are 1,00000000000000% anti-gay and homophobic. I grew up in a Christian household and went to church and am religious myself. However, I guess my religious beliefs and upbringing was more liberal, tolerant, and progressive. This conflict of beliefs is causing issues and my husband (although raised by said intolerance) is on my side with this issue. My husband has agreed to have a conversation before we TTC about the EXPLICIT agreement that will be had with his parents about the topics that can and cannot be brought up to our children...i.e. homophobic and any other kind of prejudice. I am just really sad right now and things like this make me really question religion.
Does anyone else have experience with this or any advice? I don't openly voice my opinions because I try to respect their beliefs, but they don't respect mine. We are friends on facebook and I put a "NOH8" photo as my banner, but I have them very limited as to what they can see. My husband's father blocked me on facebook because of my NOH8 photo because he believes that anyone who "condones" or accepts gay people is not only "pushing them further into the depths of hell" but is also going to hell. It's so frustrating! I want to cry right now.
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ETA: My FIL has now called both my DH and I embarrassments because we believe people are either born gay or straight. If THAT isn't enough he added insult to injury by telling my DH that, "he feels sad for him that he let his wife force him into changing his beliefs and is no longer the man of the house". WTF?!?! Are you kidding me? My FIL is supposedly a DEVOUT CHRISTIAN and this is the *** that spews out of his mouth? Uh.....H'OKAY - don't think so!
And on another related note, long story short my FIL insulted my BIL's fiance's brother by calling him fat and weak (he gave him a weight belt for his bachelor party gift and said "this is for when you have heavy lifting...carrying your wife over the threshold"). He said he was joking, but he was clearly just being mean. And to make matters WORSE my MIL told my BIL that he would be HAPPIER if he spent LESS time with his fiance. Are you f*#King kidding me?!?!?! I feel like my ILs are trying to sabotage EVERY relationship their kids have because us wives and fiances weren't prude, never-been-kissed, virgins like their parents wanted for their sons. It drives me ##batshitfuckingnuts. Sorry for the language, but it's seriously RIDICULOUS and I don't know HOW I am going to be able to ever be in the same room with them, MUCH LESS let them around my future children if they continue to act this way. Any words of advice or should I just let it go? (My BILs fiance called me crying 2 days ago telling me that she feels hated and unwelcome to the family)
Re: Intolerant in-laws
Having the conversation before you even start TTC seems excessive and might stretch out the drama. You could probably hold off until you've conceived. Or even until your little one is older.
I don't know. I grew up with extremely racist grandparents, who I loved and were very close to. I even lived with them until I was 10. I think a lot of us had racist grandparents. But even as my grandparents were spewing their hate, my sisters and I would just roll our eyes because we knew they had nothing to back up their claims.
If they want to block your facebook, let them. That's a great way for them to come off as even more closed-minded.
I agree with ctm154 100%. Well said.
"Don't marry a man unless you would be PROUD to have a son exactly like him." ~ Unknown
While I don't know if having FI have a conversation before trying to conceive is necessary I don't think prejudice should be spewed around children. My mother always challenged my grandmother's (father's mother) language that made her seem racist before I was born. My mother actually has a great relationship with my grandmother so it didn't do permanent damage. I was never exposed to racist or any other ism language during my childhood although my mother isn't exactly okay with homosexual behavior herself. She raised me without hate in my heart, something I will always be grateful for. I would do the same for your children. When your children are born make it clear that talking about anyone's sexual behavior will not be tolerated around your children. If they start speaking that way you can leave.
Be careful not to be negative about the grandparents though. You want your children to have many people who love them in life and multi-generational upbringing is very special and something that should be cherished.
Eh, I grew up around my openly racist grandma. According to her Hispanics and African Americans are terrible people ruining America. My sisters and I just roll our eyes and ignore. None of us are racist. We did grow up in a much more tolerant country though. Also my parents made it clear that racism wasn't acceptable in their house.
IMO you can use the times your ILs spew hate as teachable moments. Or you can limit your time with your ILs and tell them why.
They are positively horrid.
I would not permit children to be in their presence.
Cross this bridge when the time comes: In other words, when your child is in the picture. Do it no time before hand.
I'd very kindly tell the ILs that very same thing -- and only if they clean up their acts will the kids be permitted to see them.
in fact, I would refuse to be anywhere near this bigoted bunch. You and your H need to avoid them. As of right now.
They are also toxic, from what you have described.
Do they know that Michelangelo was gay...yep, the very same artist that painted the Sistine Chapel ceiling?
You and your H will have 100x more influence on how your child thinks then their grandparents do. I promise you!!!
You can always use grandma/grandpa's comments as "teaching moments," with your child ("grandma and grandpa are uneducated," etc.).
Now, someone who did not respect my beliefs is not someone I would spend a lot of time with. I would send your H to hang out with him on all but major events (Father's Day, their Birthday, Thanksgiving). You don't need to have them over for dinner if they are going to spend the whole time gay-bashing.
il?lic?it
/?'l?s?t/ Show Spelled[ih-lis-it] Show IPA1645?55; < Latin illicitus. See il-2 , licit
Related forms
1. illegitimate, prohibited. See illegal.
Huh? The agreement is not permitted? Or illegal? That makes no sense. Did you mean explicit?
Huh? The agreement is not permitted? Or illegal? That makes no sense. Did you mean explicit?
My grandma made a few racist comments around me when I was little, and my parents and I usually discussed them and talked about why the comments were silly. So I wouldn't be too worried about that.. I think a lot of grandparents come from a more conservative (possibly more prejudiced) place than their grandkids, so I doubt this issue is that unusual.
I have actually had similar issues with my IL's before. DH and I are both atheists, and MIL and FIL are progressive Christians. At least, they say they are progressive Christians, but FIL has shown himself, on occasion, to be more conservative than he realizes (he has issues with homosexuality and does not support gay marriage, for example). He has actually unfriended me on Facebook because of some of the things I've posted on my own page. DH and I are currently expecting our first baby, and I do expect that at some point, my FIL, in particular, is going to say something around our child that we disagree with. Our situation is a little different than yours because I wouldn't classify him as "hateful," per se, but I wouldn't be surprised if he tried to talk religion with our child while we weren't around, or something. The truth is, though, I'm actually hoping he does do that, as I want my kids to learn early on that their are opposing view points in the world. Plus, this will provide "teachable moments" and give me and DH opportunities to discuss these things with our kids, and I welcome any opportunity to do that. In the end, our kids have to make up their own minds about things anyway, and I believe that the side with the best reasoning will win out.
I personally believe this is more than just rolling your eyes at their remarks especially if they are saying garbage like saying you are going to burn in hell for your beliefs.
Honestly, if it was me I would say something to them now and not wait. I wouldn't even make it about children. Your husband needs to say " Dad, if you ever say anything to my wife about burning in hell again, you won't be seeing us or any future grandchildren, that kind of talk will not be tolerated."
Now here is the hard part, whenever they make homophobic remarks or saying anything about going to hell, you get up and leave. You don't ignore it, you get your butt out of there. Hopefully, they will learn to hold their tongues in your presence. If not, oh well.
The homophobic remarks are almost constant around my FIL. My MIL doesn't make comments, or if she does they are in response to my FIL and they are more passing remarks. The hard thing now is we live in Virginia and they live in Texas, so when we visit we usually stay with them. That being said, after this recent event I told my DH that we will NOT be staying with them from now on and he agrees it's a good idea.
The hard thing about my FIL is that he thinks he is loving and religious and trying to show people the "righteous path to Heaven through living God's will" and all that, but he's super conservative. It's just frustrating when my religious beliefs are described as "not up to God's standards". What makes his religious beliefs better than mine? Anyway - thanks for all of the advice, still not 100% sure what to do about it because I would like to have a good relationship with my ILs, and certainly don't want to damage the relationship between my DH and his parents, but at the same time - he's my partner in life, for life and that's significant in its own regard. I will just continue to ignore comments and walk out, hopefully this will get him to stop making hateful remarks in my presence.
You are never going to change your FIL's mind. That isn't going to happen. All you can do is control your reaction. That is why I say you get up and leave. That lets them know you are not going to argue with them, you will just leave.
I also have to ask, why are you so worried about ruining your relationship with them? DO you think your FIL is worried about doing the same when he said you will burn in hell?? No, of course not.
Also you both have to leave, not just you and when I say leave I mean leave the house, restaurant, store etc. Don't just go to another room. Pack up your stuff an go. This way you set a precedent before a baby comes along.
I also wouldn't worry about his relationship with his parents. If you guys had a traditional protestant wedding, there were several vows about " putting above all others" and " what God has joined together, let no man separate." What you are asking of your husband is that his uphold the vows he made to you. I honestly don't know how he would have tolerated his dad talking to you like that. I know my husband wouldn't stand for that for one second.
Yeah, pretty sure that's not up to him.
Yeah - that's my point. He doesn't see it that way though - he feels as though God talks directly through him and his word is the word of God because he's so "perfect".
This for sure. I lurk here BTW, but I face a similar relationship situation with my sister and BIL so I wanted to weigh in. We love each other lots but do not agree on pretty much all political and most religious topics.
As the PP said, don't drag it out, but I would also add that maybe you don't even need to say something unless or until the need to say something comes up. For your future kids' sakes it would be nice for them to have grandparents involved and a serious convo such as this one in an attempt to head something off might be unneccessary and may harm your relationship more.
These situations also make me sad, so I feel for you. I do think, however, that regardless of what someone else says or does, you should still hold on to what you deem as important, as in religion (in your OP).
You probably recognize imperfections in your DH and in yourself too that can make either of you seemingly unloveable sometimes, but that doesn't mean you trash an entire relationship over it. All I'm saying is: don't throw the baby out with the bath water. There is WAY more good in religion than bad. Don't toss it all away over some people that have immaturity in their Biblical understanding.
Personally, I get angry also over folks like this because they act like they are way better (sin-free if you want to call it that) than people who are homosexual, when they aren't.
Anyway, I don't know you but you can PM me if you want more info beyond this regarding the situation you are in and religion/beliefs. I'm happy to share about my experiences if it can help.
I agree with pp that I would not attempt to address this issue before you have LOs. Then I would start addressing it as you start hearing them say unacceptable statements in yours and LOs hearing.
However, you cannot shield your LOs from every crazy attitude out there. They will come across racist comments as well as other attitudes and beliefs you disagree with. It is not your job to lock your child away from these attitudes. It is your job to teach your child that these attitudes are ignorant and to be better people.
I know that I cannot, nor would I want to, shield or shelter my future children from life. I grew up with sheltered kids and saw how bad that was for them, so I would never put my kids through that. However, my FIL is such a bigot that almost EVERY conversation breeds gay hatred - it's almost as if he looks for common place topics that have some "gay" aspect and then he drives the nail in, over and over and over and over and over again. (I know that was exaggerated, but until you have been in the room with my FIL For longer than an hour, you can't even understand his weird-ness. Before I met him, my DH's cousin was talking badly about him and saying how weird he was, but I thought that being family she was exaggerating. Boy was I WRONG!
The first time my DH (back when we weren't even engaged yet) and I visited his parents in TX, we stayed for a week. The day before we left I did laundry. I guess the washer was off balance because it started shaking. As I was walking over rectify the situation, my FIL got there first. I told him not to worry about it and to please let me do it since they were my clothes (and unmentionables mostly), but he continued anyway. He then went on to pull apart all my clothes, and even INSPECTED my panties.....I talked to my DH and he told him that was inappropriate, but that is another example of FIL crossing the line.
My BILs fiance had another (worse) experience recently when she had something on the breast of her shirt, and my FIL touched her breast and said "you have something there". My SIL was MORTIFIED - and my BIL said something, but I always wonder what impact what people say make, if any. Anyway - that is my rant for this morning. I prayed and prayed last night, but my faith is definitely suffering because of this. (I know it may seem silly, but my dad died when I was 2 so I have always looked forward to seeing him and getting to know him in Heaven, and being told that I am going to Hell for loving all of God's children and being accepting, it kind of stings).
Pretty much ditto stw. Having a firm conversation w/ them before you even TTC isn't going to do anything. NOTHING.
Everything you've written here- you and your DH need to work with reality. THIS IS WHO is parents are. They aren't going to change. You telling them "what for" isn't going to change them. You having a child isn't going to change them.
THIS IS WHO THEY ARE and the two of you have to accept this and work with it.
That may mean not going to visit them, that may mean having to cut a visit short, it may mean having to kick them out of your house when they come to visit you. The list goes on. You can ONLY control yourselves and your actions. That's it. You all have to be realistic about this and what it may take from you in order to protect your child from them.
And really- even if you do talk to them, you also have to realize that it' susually actions that are a LOT louder than words. You can tell them until you're blue in the face that you won't tolerate their comments, but if they say stuff and all you do is sit there and get mad, but don't leave.... they'll only learn that it doesn't REALLY matter- you'll still stick around.
But , I also agree w/ the person who said you will have SO MUCH MORE impact on your child and their belief's than your IL's ever will. So even if your child does hear some of their rants, you can use it as a chance to teach your child.
~Benjamin Franklin
DS dx with celiac disease 5/28/10
I would wait to discuss things with them until after the kids come. Then, you (or your DH) can have a frank discussion about how you guys don't want them preaching that stuff to your children.
As far as the facebook thing goes, just let them do whatever they want to do. Try not to let facebook create any more drama in your life.
Try not to get too frustrated about this. I doubt you're going to be able to change their minds about this and they won't be able to change yours, so the best thing to do is just to let it go.
This is tough because your FIL could genuinely think he is helping both you and your DH by trying to change how you and DH believe. Your DH has every right to tell him, "Dad, since it's evident our beliefs are different, for awhile at least let's try to focus our conversations on other subjects." Your DH is not saying one person is right and the other is wrong- instead, he's putting the focus on how can the visit/conversation be more enjoyable for all.
I wanted to make this longer but I have to run - sorry!
I do NOT want them to change their beliefs, people are free to believe whatever they want and I RESPECT that. However, what I DO want is for them to respect MY beliefs, and stop saying that MY beliefs are insignificant and wrong because they aren't the same as theirs. ILs are in their late 60s so I am most certainly not trying to change them, it would be like beating a dead horse, and I am not going to waste my time on it.
The whole thing with the kids though, is that when I do have children, if they can't learn to be respectful of me and not say I'm going to Hell and call me and my DH "EMBARRASSMENTS to the family" then they won't be allowed around our kids. Grandparents have no legal right to see their grandchildren, and I will most definitely exercise my control over what disrespectful people they are around. FIL treats MIL like a dog, he doesn't respect her and thinks that because he has a penis that he's omnipotent and that his wife should obey and remain quiet if her beliefs or opinions differ from his. Last time we were down there, 6 of us were talking about their dog and FIL YELLED to stop talking about it because he didn't want to talk about the dog anymore.....and when we continued talking about it (we were 5 minutes into conversation and it was a nice one) he stormed off like a petulant child. Anyway - just wanted to clarify that I don't want, or even believe that they can change their opinions, but I do want them to respectfully agree to disagree.
I think it's wise to discuss this issue before having children. My IL's aren't necessarily homophobic or prejudice in general, however they're small-town and have had minimal interaction with different kinds of people so some of the things they say can come off ignorant and I don't want being said around my future children. Fortunately for my situation my IL's have a good filter with kids in the room and my only concern is BIL who doesn't think before he speaks.
If you and your husband are on the same page, that's a great start. Firm up your feelings together and when you have a baby on the way try to bring it up in a casual way with your IL's. You and your husband should also figure out what you'll do if your IL's don't respect your concerns; limit visits with your children, cut them out entirely, only let them visit while you're present, etc. When your child's an infant, if your IL's say something inappropriate, call them out on it. Finally, remember you and your husband are who instill values/morals/beliefs in your children so if YOU educate them and don't tolerate ignorance then your children will grow up to view these differences as you do.
Good boundaries help make good relationships. I see this as an issue that's separate from TTC. The continuous anti-gay rhetoric is affecting your relationship with your in-laws right now.
Your husband should explain to his parents that you are both uncomfortable with discussing anything regarding gay people anymore. He can acknowlege that you hold differing beliefs and that it is best for the relationship if that topic is no longer discussed. He should also let them know that if the in-laws bring up this topic, the conversation will be over.
Then follow through. If they do not respect the boundary, end the conversation. If they continue to push then leave.
P.S. - I'm a Christian who supports gay rights, and I do not believe for one second that you are going to Hell. I'm sorry that your FIL made you feel that way. It sounds like he uses the Bible as a weapon and that is incredibly wrong.