Raw Food Advice

jules0322

My 95 pound Great Pyrenees/Beagle mix has always been prone to ear infections. Our vet said floppy eared dogs are prone to yeast infections in their ears. In the last year, his belly has become extremely red and even gets scabs. More than once, our vet just put him on drops, antibiotics and steroids, but has not offered suggestions to help prevent this. 

We've tried several dry dogs foods, given him plain yogurt and I finally went to our local holistic pet food store, where we decided to try Bravo Raw dog food. The girl explained to me that his belly was probably also red from an overgrowth of yeast. After two weeks, his skin and ears cleared and his coat is even softer.  On the third week, I decided to try another brand only because I could buy a case that packaged the food in 1 pound portions and it is a huge production to thaw, portion and clean the five pound rolls. Since on this brand (which happens to have yams and in general, more supplements,) he's started to get scabs on his chest and he got another ear infection. His belly is still all clear though. 

We are currently switching him back to the Bravo brand food, but in general as this is still new to me, I'm a little leery of feeding him raw. I understand this food has been tested for bacteria, ect., (it's not the same as just giving him raw food from the grocery store) but I just wanted to know if anyone else has had success with the raw foods or a suggestion of dry food. A co-worker of mine said she switched her dog to the dry innova grain free, but it seems they have had a few recalls, and same with the Blue Buffalo. 

I like to eat as naturally as possible for myself and I just want the same and what is best for our furbaby and I don't want to be sorry in the long run. 

aggiebug

Raw diets are not tested for bacteria because it is guaranteed to have large amounts of bacteria. I cannot recommend any raw because I do not know of one that is truly balanced diet.

When is your dog having skin issues? Are they seasonal or year round?

What diets have you tried?

jules0322

The Bravo website states that their food is tested for "selected" bacteria. Of course I don't know what bacteria that is, but there is testing. In my research so far, I've read that some are feeding raw directly from the butcher, and they state this works because dogs stomachs are more acidic and also their digestive tracks are much faster. I know I'm not comfortable with that at all for my "baby" though. 

He has gotten his ear infections during every season since we got him at around 6 months. His belly has gotten redder and redder this year. More so this summer, but the first time it got really bad was in the fall. At that time our vet told us that she found one flea on him and he was having an allergic reaction to it's bites, which didn't really seem right to me. 

We have tried lots of dry brands like Natural  choice and Natures Recipe and even Trader Joes brand to name a few, and we have tried all of the proteins and cant seem to find something that works. When he was younger he always had a really loose stool until we put him on the vegetarian Natures Recipe. From there we would mix with other grain free food. 

I'm considering trying to go all grain free and see if his stomach does ok...?

Allgaier

I would. No corn, wheat, or soy. Some people even made "raw" diets at home for their pet. I've only just started to look into this. But if he did well on the bravo I'd keep him on it. There's a lot of info out there on the internet, read up on it and decide what you think is best for him. 

I've seen a lot of good results from dogs on taste of the wild and blue buffalo. 

Also check to make sure no by- products are used as well. 

RedheadBaker

Aggiebug's opinion on the raw diet is actually the minority opinion around here. Many people on the board have tried it and their dogs are thriving. One woman is actually immunocompromised herself and has no issues. Dogs have shorter stomach tracts than humans, and their stomachs are higher in acidity than a human's -- in short, they are built to handle raw meat. Just practice the same safe food handling practices that you'd use when you cook meat from raw for yourself.

aggiebug

The nature of raw diets means they have bacteria in them.  There are very few ways to eliminate bacteria from raw meats.  

Again, most are not appropriately balance diets.  And when you feed the same diet every day the risk of micro nutrient imbalances is serious.  Have you thought of home cooking your diet? That is a much safer possibility, if you  consider that I recommend talking to a veterinary nutritionist to make sure it is balanced. 

Please don't use Blue Buffalo or Taste of the Wild. Both are outrageously high in fat, and Blue Buffalo has has some major issues with their formulas.  Grain free diets, in general, are unnecessary since very few dogs are actually allergic to any grain and even less likely all grains.  However, they can be some of the most easily available limited ingredient diets available to try.  If you really want to try to see if it is diet related you need to find a diet that has NO ingredients related to anything you have fed.  It can take a lot of intense work to find something that works.  Also this means no treats outside those limited ingredients, no rawhides, no droppings from the tables etc.  You have to give it a minimum of 6 weeks before you can say it doesn't work  

Fleas are still the #1 cause of allergies in dogs and all its take is ONE bite to set an allergic dog off.  That being said there are a lot of possibilities.  Have you discussed doing allergy testing with your vet?  Its not good for food allergies but it can really help with environmental allergies.  And even if your dog does have food allergies, it is very important to control environmental allergies as well.  

jules0322

Let me know if you try it and see results. I think I'm going to get him switched entirely back to the Bravo for now, but then try to switch back to a dry grain free. 

jules0322

RedheadBaker said:

Aggiebug's opinion on the raw diet is actually the minority opinion around here. Many people on the board have tried it and their dogs are thriving. One woman is actually immunocompromised herself and has no issues. Dogs have shorter stomach tracts than humans, and their stomachs are higher in acidity than a human's -- in short, they are built to handle raw meat. Just practice the same safe food handling practices that you'd use when you cook meat from raw for yourself.

The shorter stomach tracks and higher acidity make perfect sense to me. That and this is much more close to what dogs have always eaten until the last century when dog food kibble was produced. And buying it already being tested seems like a much safer way than buying from the butcher as many do. That really scares me. The funny thing, is my hubs and I are eating a much more natural diet right now, because it seems ridiculous to feed our boy limited ingredients and then turn around and eat processed foods ourselves. ha ha. I've read lots of articles in the last year or so about humans thriving on raw foods, (no meat, I believe, -still have to have safe food handling practices of course!.)   I've only heard good results from the raw food diet for dogs, I just don't have any close friends who have needed to try it, that I can get tips from! Thanks for your input Redhead Baker!

jules0322

aggiebug said:

The nature of raw diets means they have bacteria in them.  There are very few ways to eliminate bacteria from raw meats.

It is my understanding that the meat is tested for bacteria and if it was positive, it was simply not used.   

Again, most are not appropriately balance diets.  And when you feed the same diet every day the risk of micro nutrient imbalances is serious.  Have you thought of home cooking your diet? That is a much safer possibility, if you  consider that I recommend talking to a veterinary nutritionist to make sure it is balanced. 

Im actually very interested in home cooking. I was told with the Bravo we only needed to add spinach or kale and omega to make it balanced. When we switched to the K-9 Kravings raw, we didnt need to add anything as it has veggies in it- but then he started breaking out again. :-( Do you know of any online resources on cooking for your dog?

Please don't use Blue Buffalo or Taste of the Wild. Both are outrageously high in fat, and Blue Buffalo has has some major issues with their formulas.  Grain free diets, in general, are unnecessary since very few dogs are actually allergic to any grain and even less likely all grains.  However, they can be some of the most easily available limited ingredient diets available to try.  If you really want to try to see if it is diet related you need to find a diet that has NO ingredients related to anything you have fed.  It can take a lot of intense work to find something that works.  Also this means no treats outside those limited ingredients, no rawhides, no droppings from the tables etc.  You have to give it a minimum of 6 weeks before you can say it doesn't work  

Agreed. Im really scared of the Blue Buffalo. I've heard really bad things. Right now, he is only getting dried liver treats and plain frozen greek yogurt. (He was getting that while on the Bravo, so I'm relatively certain he doesnt have a dairy allergy.)

Fleas are still the #1 cause of allergies in dogs and all its take is ONE bite to set an allergic dog off.  That being said there are a lot of possibilities.  Have you discussed doing allergy testing with your vet?  Its not good for food allergies but it can really help with environmental allergies.  And even if your dog does have food allergies, it is very important to control environmental allergies as well.  I think the Flea thing really frustrates me because he gets his flea and tick prevention monthly and we've never seen them, or had them on ourselves. Why does the allergy testing for food not work? I'm just really frustrated with our vet because I feel like all they want to do is put him on steroids to treat and I want to figure out how to prevent. 

jules0322

aggiebug said:

The nature of raw diets means they have bacteria in them.  There are very few ways to eliminate bacteria from raw meats.  

I'm also curious on your take on the shorter stomach tracks and more acidic stomachs. I keep reading over and over again that this is why the raw diet works. Obviously, I'm still super scared of him getting an infection even though we are currently on the raw. 

aggiebug

Basically everything out there about raw diets is theories and beliefs comparing them to their ancestors the wolves.  The domestic dog, however, is very VERY different from their closest ancestors due to domestication.  From their ability to live in rugged conditions, to their dietary requirements are very different. NONE of the information on RAW diets are based on scientific fact.  Not only that, their are increased risks for your dog AND your family to parasitism and bacterial infections by feeding raw.  Good hygiene on your part reduces some of these risks but does not completely eliminate them.   

here is a statement by the FDA on raw diets and their guidelines.  

here is a statement from the AVMA on raw diets.

The shorter GI tract/ acidic stomach is kind of laughable to me.  People used to eat raw meat, and some people still do.  Once you adjust to that type of diet, your body can handle it relatively well.  The reason people stopped eating raw meat because we figured out it was safer for us to eat it cooked.  It lowered the risk of disease and death in people.   This is the same reasoning for cooking your dogs diet, it lowers the risk of disease.  Heck yes wolves eat raw diets, they also have a much shorter life span.  

Why do we no have good numbers on diseases associated with raw diets? because many people don't report them, and we don't have a tracking system for it in veterinary medicine.  Its the same reason we don't know how frequent food poisoning is especially from a homemade meal.  So no the numbers, aren't out there but that is due to a lack and a difficulty of surveillance not due to a lack of disease.  I can tell you I see threads almost weekly discussing clinical cases most likely related to Raw diets on my professional forum. 

IF you are looking to cook for your dog THIS is the website I recommend.  These diets are formulated by board certified veterinary nutritionist and you can rest easy knowing they are complete and balanced diets.  

Food allergies are just funny,  if they aren't being fed the allergen they don't show positive for it.  So we get a lot of tests that come back saying they aren't allergic to XX ingredient, but as soon as your start feeding XX they would show an allergic reaction to said ingredient.  Our best test for food allergies is still a very strict food trial which can be tough.  Even if we don't think they have issues with a specific ingredient we recommend they don't eat anything they have been exposed to in their past for at least 6 weeks.  Which again can be tricky and you have to be vigilant on your ingredient check because it many diets have small amounts of various proteins to boost flavor.  One I saw on here was salmon in a chicken flavored diet for a cat.  They were trying a salmon limited ingredient diet and it wasn't working.  

As a vet allergies are frustrating, and the goal of allergy management should be to reduce how many antibiotics and steroids.  Having worked at 2 very VERY different practices I say be an advocate for your dog, tell them you are concerns and ask what you can do to reduce your steroid use.  My first clinic was very heavy handed in Antibiotics and steroids, I was very frustrated there, my second clinic is much more about trying to treat the root of the problem and practice the best medicine we can.  I can't tell you what kind of clinic you are at, so all I can say is speak up ask your questions, if they aren't giving you clear answers then find a new one.  As a guideline I would try to find one that is AAHA accredited.  

musac15

I miss the old posters of the nest! Where are you old pesties?! Someone else please chime in here....

Many dogs THRIVE on raw. They do NOT eat the same thing everyday, as Aggie has said. They eat a vast variety of meats, bones, and veggies. I hope someone else can pop in with some experience to talk about. Look up some old threads around here...there is a lot of great information out there. 

aggiebug

There is a large volume of information about raw on this site. That's doesn't mean it is true. And based on what OP said she would be doing a store bought raw which would not vary. So my point still stands.

Dork_Fish

aggiebug said:

The nature of raw diets means they have bacteria in them.  There are very few ways to eliminate bacteria from raw meats.  

Again, most are not appropriately balance diets.  And when you feed the same diet every day the risk of micro nutrient imbalances is serious.  Have you thought of home cooking your diet? That is a much safer possibility, if you  consider that I recommend talking to a veterinary nutritionist to make sure it is balanced. 

Please don't use Blue Buffalo or Taste of the Wild. Both are outrageously high in fat, and Blue Buffalo has has some major issues with their formulas.  Grain free diets, in general, are unnecessary since very few dogs are actually allergic to any grain and even less likely all grains.  However, they can be some of the most easily available limited ingredient diets available to try.  If you really want to try to see if it is diet related you need to find a diet that has NO ingredients related to anything you have fed.  It can take a lot of intense work to find something that works.  Also this means no treats outside those limited ingredients, no rawhides, no droppings from the tables etc.  You have to give it a minimum of 6 weeks before you can say it doesn't work  

Fleas are still the #1 cause of allergies in dogs and all its take is ONE bite to set an allergic dog off.  That being said there are a lot of possibilities.  Have you discussed doing allergy testing with your vet?  Its not good for food allergies but it can really help with environmental allergies.  And even if your dog does have food allergies, it is very important to control environmental allergies as well.  

My dogs are on TOTW and very healthy. The only issues we have is one of mine has flea allergies. Both of my cats also eat it and are healthy.

pattymctatty

We feed prey model raw - so I don't feed commercial unless we're going on vacation or boarding, or I'm pregnant & puking (i'm not currently pregnant but morning sickness gets me!), etc...

Rusty cannot eat chicken - processed or not. He gets itchy just like your dog.

When we do commercial I like to rotate for variety since we feed a prey model variety. Rusty does well on Nature's Variety, Stella & Chewy's, and pretty much anything I can find without chicken & crazy additives.

I think you might benefit from Monica Segal's K9 Kitchen group - her book is great and she has great suggestions and ideas for alternative feeding solutions to kibble.

LuckyAngel07

aggiebug said:

Heck yes wolves eat raw diets, they also have a much shorter life span.  

Yeah. A wolf's shorter lifespan is entirely owing to their raw diet. It couldn't possibly have anything to do with their brutal lifestyle having to hunt and capture anything they hope to eat, getting parasites, untreated injuries, or in-pack fighting.

My dog eats a prey model raw diet. We get her meat from the same butcher we get our own meat. She eats a variety of meats, organs, and bones, and we give her lots of fresh fruit and veggie treats. She is a leanly muscular dog who has never had an infection or food-related problem.

Cooking meats alters the essential protein make-up. Many dogs who show an allergic reaction to a cooked meat go on to eat that meat raw with zero allergic reaction. That's not always the case, but it's most often how it works out. However, dogs really can't get the full benefits from raw veggies, so if you feel the need to feed them, you'll want to at least steam them briefly.

starlettedir

LuckyAngel07 said:

aggiebug said:

Heck yes wolves eat raw diets, they also have a much shorter life span.  

Yeah. A wolf's shorter lifespan is entirely owing to their raw diet. It couldn't possibly have anything to do with their brutal lifestyle having to hunt and capture anything they hope to eat, getting parasites, untreated injuries, or in-pack fighting.


Oh snap!

aggiebug

Well I find it ironic that we base a diet plan off a very loosely related species. And validate it as healthier and safe when in fact the said species has a drastically shortened lifespan. There are a lot of factors that shorten their lifespan but we have no evidence that, long term, their diet is healthier or safer or better in any respect of the word. And long term is quite important in our domestic species.

RedheadBaker

aggiebug said:

Well I find it ironic that we base a diet plan off a very loosely related species. And validate it as healthier and safe when in fact the said species has a drastically shortened lifespan. There are a lot of factors that shorten their lifespan but we have no evidence that, long term, their diet is healthier or safer or better in any respect of the word. And long term is quite important in our domestic species.

Leaving wolves out of it, DOGS have shorter stomach tracts and more acidic stomachs (and lack salivary amylase which is used to break down starchy carbs like grain and corn), making them well-equipped to safely handle a properly-balanced raw diet. 

aggiebug

We are just as able to handle raw diets are dogs.  Humans have just learned it is safer for us to eat cooked meat due to food poisoning and parasites. It is no different for dogs.  

RedheadBaker

aggiebug said:

We are just as able to handle raw diets are dogs.  Humans have just learned it is safer for us to eat cooked meat due to food poisoning and parasites. It is no different for dogs.  

LOL