Night waking- help please

PhillyGal34

Ds was always a good sleeper. Then he started d/c at 10.5 months and he started getting ear infections immediately and his sleep got messed up. He's now 15 months (13 months adjusted) and he had ear tubes placed about one month ago. He is also working on molars and got two a week ago.

Anyway, he would always wake around 4 am and whine but go back to sleep on his own. While we were on vacation he was sleeping in the pack n play next to me and started standing to get my attention in the middle of the night. That's continued at home. Now the only way to get him back to sleep is to nurse him and let him sleep next to me. That means I don't sleep at all. This needs to stop. I'm not going to do cry it out but I'm looking for other suggestions. What can I do to break this new habit?? Your suggestions are appreciated.


(Also I don't want this to become a debate on CIO. My theory is very much to each their own. It will not work for me but I respect that it works for others. Thanks)

jessica0602

I don't think you'll get much of a debate about CIO here. It's much more low key than the bump

That said, we opted to do the Ferber method around 10 months old. It's the progressive waiting, which is a form of CIO. He never cried for more than about 15-20 minutes. Worked like a charm in 4 days and we haven't really had problems since.

I know you said you're anti-CIO but if you're interested, I borrowed the book from the library. That might be an option to at least have a basis of comparison. Good luck. Sleep issues are the suck.

PhillyGal34

Thanks. I may have to read about it. I just know I cannot listen to him cry that long. It breaks my heart. I'm a wimp. We never had issues until recently so I feel lost!!


Does it usually work that quickly?

JenD1018

Sounds like you've got a lot going on.  We just went through some similar sleep issues a couple months ago.

First, teeth are a beast at this time.  Molars roll right into canines (these were, by far, the worst) and they can both cause problems, especially at night.  If you just got back from vacation recently, that disruption his routine didn't help either.

Does he sleep in your room now?  And how does he wake up at night?  Crying?  Whimpering?  Do you go to him immediately or see if he will settle first?  How do you put him to sleep at night?  Nurse to sleep or put him in the crib drowsy and he goes to sleep on his own?

At about 18 months, we had at least a week's worth of 4:30/4:45am wakeups.  Screaming, hard crying, etc.  It was awful - for him and us.  I reread parts of the Ferber book (which we used originally for sleep training at 10 months) and it seemed to be attributed to him waking him during his REM/dream cycle and he was disoriented and getting scared.  Anyway, we ultimately decided to slide his bedtime ahead 30 minutes, from 8pm to 7:30pm.  Amazingly, the early wakeups stopped and now he sleeps until at least 6 and wakes up MUCH happier.

JenD1018

Also, as I mentioned, we used the Ferber book too (after reading about other methods).  His method does not include leaving your child to scream all night.  It's a progressive process where you leave them for slightly longer times each time.  You can set the wait times.  I think we started with 5-10-15 (wait 5 minutes, go in and check and reassure but don't pick up, wait 10 min, etc) but I know you can do even shorter periods of wait time.  The whole process worked for us in about 5 days because we (my H and I) had a game plan and stayed consistent (we were too wishy washy before).  Whatever you methods you choose, I feel this is the most important aspect - being routine and staying consistent.

PhillyGal34

I should also mention he's on the verge of walking too. So yeah lots going on.

He sleeps in his own room. He does nurse to sleep. He wasn't but lately he has been passing out.

He wakes up crying and it gets progressively louder and more upset. We let him go for a little bit to see if he goes back down but then he stands up and he gets more upset.

He goes to bed around 7:30 and wakes up at 4:30 then sleeps until 7. He only gets one nap at d/c and sleeps 1.5-2 hours.

Jen I agree. I think we need so formulate a plan and do it. We've been letting him call the shots and I know that's not going to be good for him in the long run. But nursing him back to sleep was easiest for us too. Shortcuts need to end!

PhillyGal34

Silly follow up question. How do I change the nursing to sleep part too? Do I start nursing before we read and everything? As soon as I hold him he will try to nurse again or get upset that I'm not letting him.

JenD1018

Yeah, walking.  He's got so much going on developmentally that it's a huge disruption too.  Can you possibly try sliding his bed time earlier 15 min?  Might help with that early morning sleep cycle disruption.

When I still nursed, I would nurse him (on the couch) until he was very drowsy or just asleep and then when I'd stop, we'd wake him up slightly (let him say goodnight to Daddy and the dog) and then carry him up to his room and put him down awake.  When I stopped nursing (at a year), we changed his night routine to bath, pjs, books and milk on the couch and then up to bed.  He goes in wide awake now but knows it's bedtime and will just talk to himself for a little before falling asleep.

It's hard and even though we can't give you exact answers, hopefully something will help you.

You'll find out what works for you guys, it's all about trial and error - just stick with it!  And then something else will come up!
(

jessica0602

JenD1018 said:

You'll find out what works for you guys, it's all about trial and error - just stick with it!  And then something else will come up!
(

Jen is wise. But remember this above all else. It's all phases and cycles!

PhillyGal34

Thanks guys. I'm talking to dh today about what we can do.

Do you recommend changing the nursing to bed and doing something like Ferber all at once or one and then the other?

JenD1018

It's not putting him to bed that's the problem, it's the staying asleep part.  So I'm not sure you have to change the nursing to sleep right now (if at all).  WE changed it because J would wake up a few times at night and didn't know where he was and wouldn't be able to settle himself.

I would recommend at least reading the Ferber book first because possibly it can narrow down some suggestions for you and you'll also get the feel for his method, as well as understanding sleep in babies/toddlers. Then you can formulate your game plan.

Also, isn't 4am the suck?  God, I swear that is the worst time of the night for them to wake up.

PhillyGal34

I'm wondering if that is part of it though. He would always sooth himself back to sleep but can you lose that ability???

My sister in law just told me she will drop off the ferber book today so i'm planning to start reading it and figure out how to proceed.  do you need to read the whole book or only parts of it?

yes it is the worst.  By the time he's settled and asleep it is too late for me to get back to sleep before I have to wake up. UGH

JenD1018

Definitely read the beginning chapters that talk about the sleep cycle.  Then you can read the sections that apply to you (obviously something like bed wetting would be not relevant).

I don't think they necessarily lose the ability to put themselves to sleep, he just has a lot going on developmentally (physically and mentally) and I'm sure that's part of the issue.

As I (constantly) tell my husband, this too shall pass.

tracyd21

PhillyGal34 said:

Silly follow up question. How do I change the nursing to sleep part too? Do I start nursing before we read and everything? As soon as I hold him he will try to nurse again or get upset that I'm not letting him.

I started nursing at the beginning of the bedtime routine - so before PJs, books, etc.  Then had DH put her to bed.  He also was responsible for the night wakings once we weaned those.  I had to totally separate nursing from sleep, but DD had stopped falling asleep while nursing pretty early on, which I think made it much easier.  

JenD1018

Tracy's post reminds me - can you send your DH in to calm him when he wakes up at 4am?  That's what we would do when J would wake up at night.  Most of the time he could get him settled vs. if I went in or brought him in bed with me, all he wanted to do was climb all over me.

PhillyGal34

DH does go in during the night. Only issue is that DS seems to cry louder when he realizes it isn't me.  I may tell him he has to stay in there and try longer (DH runs out of patience at 4:30 am haha) to see what we can do because I know DS will want to eat if I go in!

PhillyGal34

This is absolutely horrible. He'd screaming like I'm torturing him and I want to cry too. He is standing there looking so upset and when I go in he grasps my arm like its his lifeline. It's been about 20 minutes so far and I feel like a horrible mom. God I want to give up already.

PhillyGal34

Every time I go in it gets worse. I'm going to break soon.

PhillyGal34

I didn't even last a half hour. Dh had to leave for work and it was just me. I started crying and he was bawling and I picked him up. I'm such a failure.

tracyd21

Aw you're not a failure!  It's not for everyone, and your DS may not be ready yet.  Maybe try again over the weekend when DH will be home to do the soothing.  

PhillyGal34

So here is what happened.  After an hour and a half.. maybe a little more of me going in, saying it was ok, picking him up a few times and then putting him back down and saying "it's time to sleep I love you", getting so frustrated that I brought him to bed (badbadbad) but him crying and not lying down anyway and then ultimately nursing him ... but not to sleep. He eventually laid down and fell asleep and then slept until 7:45 when I had to wake him up to go to school and for me to get to work (late)... I feel bad that I nursed him because I know that is a major part of the problem.  DH will be home tonight but not on Thursday so we will see how it goes tonight and then maybe wait until the weekend to try again but I also don't want to start and stop it.  I hate it but if it ultimately helps him I will do it.  It was so heartbreaking to hear him cry so much though.  The whole time all I could think was that I was breaking his spirit ... a bit dramatic but it was 5 am and I was dead tired and alone and upset.  I kept thinking he would hate me this morning but he gave me a big smile when I woke him up and seemed fine. 

I know I made about 1,000,000 errors but I'm hoping tonight is better and DH can help keep me calm.

ETA- I read the parts of the Ferber book that were applicable to us. A very quick read! I know I definitely have to wean the night feeding... so I think tonight I am going to go in and nurse for a few minutes and then have DH come get him at a set time and take him from there that way he can wean from it without going cold turkey since it is my fault that he is conditioned to eat at night... it isn't fair to him to completely cut him off at once. 

jessica0602

Oh dear, you are not a failure by any stretch!

First things first, breathe and try to relax. 

Second, the only thing I'd suggest at this point if you decide to try it again, is give yourself some time to formulate a plan with your H and stick with it.  If you know your little guy has teeth coming through, maybe delay it a little.

It's perfectly normal to get frustrated.  I sobbed the first night.  I mean gut wrenching, soul crushing sobs.  And it was only 20 minutes before he fell asleep.

Good luck and again you're doing your best! 

JenD1018

jessica0602 said:

Oh dear, you are not a failure by any stretch!

First things first, breathe and try to relax. 

Second, the only thing I'd suggest at this point if you decide to try it again, is give yourself some time to formulate a plan with your H and stick with it.  If you know your little guy has teeth coming through, maybe delay it a little.

It's perfectly normal to get frustrated.  I sobbed the first night.  I mean gut wrenching, soul crushing sobs.  And it was only 20 minutes before he fell asleep.

Good luck and again you're doing your best! 

Ditto all of this.  It is not going to work the first night.  And probably not the second or third.

Also, recognize that the nursing is a comfort thing and he doesn't NEED to eat.  However, if he's going through a growth spurt he could truly be hungry.  At night, you could try nursing him first (if you still plan to continue) and then maybe have you or your H read to him and give him some milk in a cup (if you are giving cow's milk) and then put him down.  Also, if I recall correctly, you aren't supposed to pick them up, but I could be mixing that up with another type of sleep training.  I can't pick up J because he'll just latch on and then and I can't get him off me.

PS - J has been waking crying at 5am the past two mornings so I'm right here with you again!

PhillyGal34

Thanks guys... oh you aren't supposed to pick them up but I couldn't help it. i reached down to pat his back and he grabbed my arm and wouldn't let go and I felt horrible leaving him there alone. I was weak!

I definitely recognize it's a comfort "prop" and that  I need to stop nursing at night.  I plan on continuing so I need to disassociate nursing with sleep.  I think I need to do that at the same time.  I've spent a lot of today at work thinking about this and not working (awesome for my billing) he does get cow milk but will giving him that before bed just create another prop we have to break? we usually eat around 6:30 and he goes to bed by 7:30 so I need to fit nursing in there somewhere... not sure where or when!

man oh man why did vacation have to totally screw him up???

ugh sorry you are going through this too!

JenD1018

I don't see the harm in milk before bed but it's something I'm going to ask my pedi about at J's 2 year checkup in December.

tracyd21

We give cow's milk in a cup while DH reads stories.  Then he brushes DD's teeth and puts her to bed.  It has been working well.

PhillyGal34

UPDATE!!!!!!!! yes I'm really excited.  Last night we gave DS a bath and then I nursed him and DH held him while I read a book. Then I left the room and actually left the house to go for a run because I didn't want to hear him cry.  I got back from my run and tip toed in, expecting to hear crying.  DH told me he went to sleep in less than15 minutes and put himself down!!!!

So of course, expecting the worst again, we went to bed waiting for 4:30 am.  He woke up... for about 10 seconds and then went back to sleep and slept until 6:45!!!! almost 12 hours straight!

Today we have his 15 month well visit so he is going to get shots and I'm not sure if that will throw things off or if last night was a fluke but I really think a lot of the issue is me and that when I go in he wants food.  I feel bad that DH will have to take on a lot of this but hopefully it won't take long to get past this hurdle.

Thank you all for your help and advice. I'll keep you updated.  I'm hoping I can sleep better tonight because I kept waking up listening for him all night out of habit... now I have to break my habit!

JenD1018

Yay, great update!  Ugh, shots always screw up J too but hopefully it'll be temporary blip.  Just stay consistent!

tracyd21

That's great!  I think they figure it out pretty quickly as they get older.  

DD had her 12 month shots last night and slept an extra hour today.  It was glorious.  So there's hope!

PhillyGal34

thanks guys. I'm really hoping we are at least on the right path. I know there will always be things to screw it up but if we can get him to have good habits most of the time those blips shouldn't mess him up as much in the future.  An extra hour of sleep would be awesome! although I have an early conference call tomorrow anyway so I doubt I'll get to sleep in. Wish it was the weekend!

jessica0602

Excellent news!  Progress is progress.  Best of luck the rest of the week!