Thoughts on a money debate I had with a friend.

emily1004

A girlfriend of mine and I went on a road trip this weekend up north. We got into a discussion about money, luxuries and the poor. I believe in being responsible, paying your bills, and holding off on luxuries until you can afford them. She says just because people are poor or don't make as much money doesn't mean that they shouldn't have nice things like cable, smart phones or nice purses etc. We both got a little worked up and started to debate. In all honesty, she made a good point but I feel she did a poor job explaining it. She said, Why do rich people get to be in this "little club" and are the only ones allowed by society to have nice things? I said a lot of people have nice things but are not rich. They worked hard and saved for what they wanted. It's called being responsable. Then she said, are you saying poor people don't work hard? We had to agree to continue the discussion at another time and changed the subject. 

The debate started because there are people in the city of Detroit who had their water shut off. Some owed thousands of dollar in back utility bills and still have cable. If it were me, I would cancel the cable and get up to date on my bills, to get the water turned back on. She says water is a basic human need, and it's okay to have cable. They need to turn the water back on and never should of turned it off in the first place. (There is more to the news story).

Since the other day, it's been bothering me and I am curious of others POV on this subject. (A little back story: She's a lawyer and I'm a paralegal, we debate different topics all the time. Sometimes we agree, sometimes we don't, and yes we are still very close.) 

vlagrl29

I feel the same way as you.  I would sell all of my coach purses if my family couldn't eat.  I would actually pretty much sell everything of real value except my wedding rings and viola/violin if we were living in poverty

FabulousMrs.P

Honestly, I feel the same way you do. It doesn't matter how much money you have, basic needs (food, water, shelter, clothing) need to come before the luxuries. We can and did cut cable and any other luxuries when my DH was out of work. Paying the mortgage was more important than watching ESPN or buying myself new clothes. We had to adjust our budget to our new financial situation. When it got better and we could afford the luxuries, we added them in slowly. It took my husband 9 months to land a new job. It wasn't easy, but we did what we had to and made it.

I actually had a similar conversation with some of the girls that I used to wait tables with. They were all jealous that I was going to Ireland for a week on vacation. I had to point out that I was working 6 days a week. Most of them were only working 4-5 days.  I wasn't driving a new car like them or buying a new cellphone. I didn't get my nails done or go out to the bar at night like some of them were doing. I chose to work the extra day a week and saved up for 2 years so that we could go on the trip. So they thought I was doing it because I was "rich" and didn't think that about all the things I gave up to make that.

Do I think that sometime people are going through hard times and need help? Absolutely. That said...give up the cable and focus on real needs (water, food, shelter)

Xstatic3333

I had a similar debate with my parents and H when my car got totaled while I was in grad school. I wanted to use the insurance payment to get something in cash, while they all wanted me to take on a car payment to get something I'd really love (I loved the totaled car and was so sad about the whole situation). I just didn't feel like I deserved a new car until I had my career; it all felt like smoke and mirrors. They said I deserved it because I worked hard.

In the end they did succeed in up selling me in my pre-MM mental state, and I know it's a very different scale, but basically I do agree with you. They should have cancelled their cable-that would actually be one of the first things to go for me if financial trouble hit (we just have internet anyway). Non essentials need to go if you can't pay your bills.

I can see an argument for alternatives to shutting off the water for the health of any kids involved, but see that as a separate issue. I would had the city try collections, payment plans, even wage garnishment first-but I'm not from Detroit so I don't know the full backstory.

hoffse

I agree with you.  Smart phones, designer purses, etc. are not a need.  Cable is not a need.  Even internet service is not a need given how easy it is to access the internet from public locations (libraries, etc.)

We've gotten a bit of flack for going to London right after closing on a house.  It's kind of interesting - people have expressed disbelief, jealousy, etc.  But you know what?  The really expensive stuff for London was paid for months ago.  I've been spreading costs out since December - buying one set of tickets per month so that I could absorb those costs out of our misc. category instead of using our savings.  Heck I just printed out BoGo coupons for a ton of different attractions in the London area so we can get in for half price.  I also printed out a bunch of BoGo coupons for restaurants near our hotel.  And we always raid our pantry for snacks before traveling so we don't have to spend money on snacks at our location.

And in order to travel, we buy clothes maybe once or twice a year - we replace things that are truly worn out.  I don't get my hair or nails done.  We do our best to minimize eating out.  We haven't had cable in two years.  It's really all about priorities.  H and I are fortunate to have some very nice things, but most of them were gifts from family or from our wedding.  We don't buy ourselves much at all.  

brij2006

I don't think your side of the debate was wrong at all.  If someone has their water shut off but their cable bill has been paid, then sorry, but their priorities aren't straight.  The city can't just leave their water going when they haven't been paid in months.  Same as how their car will get taken away if they don't make their payment or electricity will be shut off if they don't pay the bill.

My H is the water and sewer commissioner in our town, and he says that this is the hardest part of his job. He has to decide who gets to have their water on and who doesn't based on how far behind they are with paying their bill.  He says that you would be surprised by the people who are on the list that only pay a few dollars here and there to keep it on, yet they drive brand new cars and you see them at the bar every Friday and Saturday night (we live in a small town).  What's also sad is that many of those places will work with you.  In his case, as long as that person is paying something and showing that they want to get rid of this debt, then their water stays on.  But if they haven't paid their bill or any portion of it in 3 months then they get shut off.  

emily1004

There is a lot going on in Detroit right now, but if I were to write everything I would get really wordy and confusing. Long story short, a large majority of the people living in Detroit are living in extreme poverty or are homeless, and "pulling yourself up by the bootstraps: IS harder in this city then in other places. Not to mention the city is going through the largest municipal bankruptcy in history. I don't live in the city, but I do have to go to court sometimes and we go to clients homes. I see the poor conditions, it is like going to a third world country. In fact, in Metro Detroit, if you drive 15 minutes north, out of the city proper, you will find yourself in one of the wealthiest area in the state. It's really very strange. My H and I are lucking to live in such a beautiful community.

I try not to judge others using food stamps and are carrying an LV purse, because odds are, it's a fake, and I don't know a strangers back story or why they are on food stamps. But when people are obviously making poor choices, like getting their nails done every week but have an overdue utility for thousands of dollars... it almost infuriates me. Plus it makes my job harder when dealing with the trustees. 

You are all right! It is definitely about priorities. I'm pretty liberal about certain topics, but my friend is the definition of a bleeding-heart.

Xstatic3333

hoffse said:

I agree with you.  Smart phones, designer purses, etc. are not a need.  Cable is not a need.  Even internet service is not a need given how easy it is to access the internet from public locations (libraries, etc.)

We've gotten a bit of flack for going to London right after closing on a house.  It's kind of interesting - people have expressed disbelief, jealousy, etc.  But you know what?  The really expensive stuff for London was paid for months ago.  I've been spreading costs out since December - buying one set of tickets per month so that I could absorb those costs out of our misc. category instead of using our savings.  Heck I just printed out BoGo coupons for a ton of different attractions in the London area so we can get in for half price.  I also printed out a bunch of BoGo coupons for restaurants near our hotel.  And we always raid our pantry for snacks before traveling so we don't have to spend money on snacks at our location.

And in order to travel, we buy clothes maybe once or twice a year - we replace things that are truly worn out.  I don't get my hair or nails done.  We do our best to minimize eating out.  We haven't had cable in two years.  It's really all about priorities.  H and I are fortunate to have some very nice things, but most of them were gifts from family or from our wedding.  We don't buy ourselves much at all.  

We get a lot of comments about the travel stuff, too, particularly from H's family. The fact is it's a priority to me, so we save to make it happen. I would never go into debt over it, but it's a big reason we're buying a lot less house than we *could*. I also rarely shop and get my hair cut maybe twice a year at Super Cuts, and we say no to lots of local fun events like concerts. It's really quite doable if you prioritize.

@brij2006‌ that must be so frustrating for your H to see. I hate when people abuse the system that way; it gives forgiveness programs a bad name for the many who truly need them.

Sisugal

Always fund needs first - then save - luxuries come last.

When I was poor I had no luxuries. Heck my mom gave me heck for buying nail polish (yes, we were that poor) and she was making her point that money was for necessities first, then savings and if you still had something left (which we did not) then you could consider luxuries.
Poverty was a big part of my motivation in life to not be poor. We are not high income people but have done very well financially (and are in better financial positions than our high income friends)

I understand unfortunate circumstances can happen to anyone thru no fault of their own, but there are also many people who could make better choices and change their circumstances but can't/won't do what it takes to make the needed changed to get out of their situation. 

I am all about helping those who are doing something to help themselves as well as those disabled or otherwise unable to change their lives.  Not so much for those who just feel entitled.

brij2006

@xstatic3333 He's really good about how he handles it, but I know it gets to him when he has to choose whether or not a family with 4 children will continue to have water or not.  I think the hardest part is that we live in such a small town that we will have people knocking on our door threatening because he had to choose to turn their water off.  He usually isn't the one who has to go out and turn it off physically, but they all know that he's the one who makes this decision.  The even worse thing is that the commissioners in our town are almost a volunteer position.  So he doesn't get paid much at all to handle this, but he does it because he wants to have a say in what goes on in our little town.

emily1004

brij2006 said:

@xstatic3333 He's really good about how he handles it, but I know it gets to him when he has to choose whether or not a family with 4 children will continue to have water or not.  I think the hardest part is that we live in such a small town that we will have people knocking on our door threatening because he had to choose to turn their water off.  He usually isn't the one who has to go out and turn it off physically, but they all know that he's the one who makes this decision.  The even worse thing is that the commissioners in our town are almost a volunteer position.  So he doesn't get paid much at all to handle this, but he does it because he wants to have a say in what goes on in our little town.

That's scary for you!  And sad. Especially since it's not the child's fault. But these behaviors are learned at home and it just creates a vicious cycle of those dependent on social programs and it starts to walk the fine life of being fraud or not. You can afford that 2014 Cadillac but not your water bill? I have a Cadillac too, but I pay my water bill. 

I think she looks at it as everyone should have a Cadillac. Why should there be discrimination against the poor and the wealthy?

CuriousKiddosMama

I agree with you completely. There are a lot of things that society says we 'need' but I would do anything to make sure we have a roof over our heads, food, electricity and water. From there you also need gas to get to work/look for a new job.

Nobody deserves a coach purse, jordan shoes or an expensive car. I used to work at a poor, title 1 school and it drove me absolutely crazy that kids who were getting free lunch, who had parents on welfare, had a nicer cell phone/purse/whatever than I did. If you are on government assistance- you SHOULD NOT have the money to buy that. If you do have the money to buy that stuff then you are committing fraud because you shouldn't be on government assistance. I'm not saying that there shouldn't be help out there for when people need it- but ugh.

MommyLiberty5013

I think a key phrase is "at the expense of." If a person with a low income level decides that s/he wants to work, save a bit of money on the side, while paying the regular bills and then have a spendy splurge on that special item like a handbag, then that's fine. Everybody "deserves" to decide where they want their fun saving money to go toward.

But, no one should feel entitled to anything "at the expense of" the legitimate daily life bills.

Before SAHMhood, I was a banker for a large bank. Bank branches "own" or manage and oversee the accounts that are opened in their individual locations. This is why when you call or go in for an overdraft fee, they want to see which branch you opened up the account at. Your "home" branch has a bottom line. Just like the overall bank/company has a bottom line.

At one branch I worked at, in the metro Denver area, the DAILY amount of uncollected charged-off accounts owed to the bank just from this branch was always fluxuating around $24,000. I kid you not. $24k. This means that the bank had paid, on their customers' behalf, purchases made by debit cards to outside merchants and the customers of these checking accounts were NOT paying back the bank for these debit card purchases.

People get angry about bank fees. We have no one to blame except the people who think they are entitled to things they cannot afford and have no intention of paying back the banks for their purchases. It's called stealing.

OP, you are right on track. I'm sorry, but your friend doesn't understand basic economics or responsible financial practices.

I know I sounds harsh, the reality is that my DH and I help lots of people in many ways who are truly deserving. But, when it comes to entitlement, and not paying for services rendered or goods bought, I am pretty blunt. It's just not right.

If your friend is truly a bleeding heart, she would see that these poor behaviors do more harm than good.

I will not forget the times I discussed fees with an elderly person. "I know I made a mistake - it's my fault - I misread my checkbook - why is there a $35 fee on my account for a $5 error?" Yes. Banks reverse fees for infrequent mistakes.

But the point is that fees wouldn't have to occur in the excessive manner in which they do IF selfish, prideful, entitled, brats got a clue and starting behaving like real adults instead of materialistic hoarders of crud.

Sorry to get ranty. Stealing makes me angry.

 

emily1004

http://www.mediaite.com/tv/welfare-activist-unloads-on-detroit-reporter-you-can-tell-hes-lying-his-lips-are-moving/

This was the interview if anyone is interested, that started the debate. I can say that in no way, in this interview, did this reporter lie. 

Edit, sorry for the crappy site, but this was the only place I could find the whole interview.

ta78

I agree with you, but I think we are all on this money board because that is pretty much how we all feel. Money should be saved and spent responsibly without debt. You only deserve nice things when you can comfortably afford them.

I have friends who sound more like yours and just don't have the same view of their debt.

MommyLiberty5013

ta78 said:

I agree with you, but I think we are all on this money board because that is pretty much how we all feel. Money should be saved and spent responsibly without debt. You only deserve nice things when you can comfortably afford them.

I have friends who sound more like yours and just don't have the same view of their debt.

Yeah. I dare each of us to post this conversation on our Facebooks......

MotherOfPearl85

http://www.washingtonpost.com/posteverything/wp/2014/07/08/this-is-what-happened-when-i-drove-my-mercedes-to-pick-up-food-stamps/

Here's a link that maybe will start to combat all of the judgement in this thread. You don't know anyone's circumstances. 

aditigirl

What. The. Fuck.

vlagrl29

MotherOfPearl85 said:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/posteverything/wp/2014/07/08/this-is-what-happened-when-i-drove-my-mercedes-to-pick-up-food-stamps/

Here's a link that maybe will start to combat all of the judgement in this thread. You don't know anyone's circumstances. 

I had heard about this earlier this week.  Thanks for posting.  I had never actually read the article to it's entirety.  I could never sell my wedding rings or instruments.  There are some things I know I could never sell if we ever hit poverty.  There are other things I would have no problem selling such as certain furniture items.

vlagrl29

I don't know if anyone knows about this but Tmobile has a life line plan now for your cell phone.  You get a $10 credit and you have to be within a certain tax bracket.  It doesn't include much texting or data.

Xstatic3333

AprilH81 said:

MotherOfPearl85 said:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/posteverything/wp/2014/07/08/this-is-what-happened-when-i-drove-my-mercedes-to-pick-up-food-stamps/

Here's a link that maybe will start to combat all of the judgement in this thread. You don't know anyone's circumstances. 

There is a big difference between this article and what we are talking about.  It is about having priorities and having an iPhone with a huge data plan while you are neck deep in debt and behind on your house payment or utilities just isn't smart.

Agreed. No judgement, just agreement that paying utility bills should come first. I'm sure that doesn't apply to all of the people who had their water shut off; probably many are doing their best and still need help. Some aren't, which is what OP was referring to.

maple2

I do think there is a tremendous difference between people going through hard times who just need to tighten their belts and people who have pretty much only known a life of poverty and can't really see any other future.  Studies have shown that the 2nd group of people can have a much more difficult time making what most of the people on this board would consider responsible/rational financial decisions due to some combination of poor role models, different brain function as a result of poverty and the stress it causes, societal pressure/unrealistic expectations, and other factors.  I don't know what the right answer is, but I do think it is more complex than just that people need to be more responsible with their money and have better financial priorities.

MotherOfPearl85

http://forums.thebump.com/discussion/12386773/i-drove-my-mercedes-to-pick-up-my-food-stamps/p1

Bump post with great examples of how terrible the cycle of poverty is. I just hate to think that if I lost my job tomorrow and needed assistance that I would be judged because I have a nice phone or whatever it is.

Erikan73

My mom drives a Mercedes while shopping at Aldi's. What most people don't realize is that despite her vehicle looking brand new, it's 9 years old already. Also some people are great at finding deals. My neighbor was just telling about a community garage sale she went to and found a Vera Bradley Gold Mine, she five different Vera Bradley bags, probably well worth over $300 new, they were all still in great shape & she only paid $25.00 for everything. Some people are just great shoppers. Then you take care of your things too & they last you a long time. Nice also doesn't have to have a brand name, it can be something that just looks nice. But then when it comes down to luxury things (cable) compared to a basic necessity (water) you need to priortize. You & your kids can live without cable but you can't live without water. Everyone should have to pay for what they use on their utilities. There are assistance programs for those that really need help. When it comes to utilities, everyone should have to pay for what they use.

emily1004

Wow, I was gone for a day and look what I missed! Just to be clear, I have absolutely no problem helping those struggling, out of no fault of their own. However, I am a bankruptcy paralegal and I see the poor choices people make day in and day out. 

A $5000 utility bill is one of two things, either there was a mistake on the utility company's part OR you ignored the bill for a really long time. Having a smart phone vs having a car that is paid off are two different things. I am going to judge people who make stupid choices and don't learn from them. Saying, "Oh I never judge" is BS. We're human, we all judge. That being said, people do make mistakes, but it's our job as responsible adults to learn from those mistakes and make changes. A smart phone and cable are luxuries. A vehicle, in some areas (especially here in Detroit) is a need.

Xstatic3333

Yes, I think not judging others and acknowledging that some make poor choices is two separate things.

"You should never judge people's financial situations based on what they own or what they look like"-I completely agree with this statement.

"If people choose to buy 'wants' instead of 'needs,' the needs shouldn't be given to them for free"-I agree with this statement completely as well.

I see these as two separate issues. This is not to negate the cycle of poverty and how tough it is to break; I would say most caught up in that are people who deserve assistance, and hopefully who the water company is working with to set up a plan to get the water back on.