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Iran Just "Discovered"

High reserves of uranium right after the good 'ole US of A seals the Iran Deal with Dems waiving it on through. According to Reuters and posted on Fox.

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2015/09/12/report-iran-finds-unexpectedly-high-uranium-reserve-after-dems-seal-nuke-deal/?intcmp=hpbt1

So friggin' stupid!!! Obama didn't get anything out of that deal. Not even 4 hostages/prisioners.

«1

Re: Iran Just "Discovered"

  • We didn't have any reason to even be at the table, but for better or worse, that's who we are a country.  So fine, we get to the table and then... NOTHING.  This is insanity.  
  • We didn't have any reason to even be at the table, but for better or worse, that's who we are a country.  So fine, we get to the table and then... NOTHING.  This is insanity.  
    Respectfully, I disagree. The 4 American lives imprisoned in Iran are cause enough to be at the table. Furthermore, we are still an ally of Israel. So that's another reason to be at the table.
  • BlueBirdMBBlueBirdMB member
    500 Love Its 1000 Comments Second Anniversary Name Dropper
    edited September 2015
    We didn't have any reason to even be at the table, but for better or worse, that's who we are a country.  So fine, we get to the table and then... NOTHING.  This is insanity.  
    Respectfully, I disagree. The 4 American lives imprisoned in Iran are cause enough to be at the table. Furthermore, we are still an ally of Israel. So that's another reason to be at the table.
    Ok, I will certainly agree that the release of 4 American prisoners are something to try to negotiate, but I can guarantee that Israel didn't want us making any deals with Iran because any deal means that we relinquish sanctions, which is the only thing that keeps Iran at bay.  Israel was extremely unhappy that we bowed to pressure from the EU specifically to even go to the table.  The sanctions on Iran worked and any negotiation with them would result is less harsh sanctions at the very least.

    Iran's economy has been crippled because of the sanctions that are currently in place, which is why they wanted to negotiate a better deal.  The EU wants their oil.  What did we really want?  I feel like we went to the table with absolutely nothing that we even wanted, which is why we got nothing.
  • BlueBirdMBBlueBirdMB member
    500 Love Its 1000 Comments Second Anniversary Name Dropper
    edited September 2015
    I think we're on the same page about this, @MommyLiberty5013, I think we're just missing each other's points slightly. 

    I've heard Israel officials say exactly what I think: That truthfully there is no way to "monitor" or accurately "inspect" Iran's nuclear facilities, so the entire basis of this negotiation is flawed, even if it had been a better deal. Historically speaking, countries with something to hide, always hide it regardless.  Think the Red Cross inspections of concentration camps during the Holocaust.  The Red Cross went to "inspect" and were shown model facilities created for show.  This is what happens.   
  • I think we're on the same page about this, @MommyLiberty5013, I think we're just missing each other's points slightly. 

    I've heard Israel officials say exactly what I think: That truthfully there is no way to "monitor" or accurately "inspect" Iran's nuclear facilities, so the entire basis of this negotiation is flawed, even if it had been a better deal. Historically speaking, countries with something to hide, always hide it regardless.  Think the Red Cross inspections of concentration camps during the Holocaust.  The Red Cross went to "inspect" and were shown model facilities created for show.  This is what happens.   

    I see what you're saying. The question then could be, if the USA hadn't been involved in the negotiations, would the deal be any better? Would the sanctions remain? Moot point probably; we can never know. Food for thought, I suppose.

    With Iran, and now Syria and Russia teaming up, I dislike the state of things for Israel.

  • BlueBirdMBBlueBirdMB member
    500 Love Its 1000 Comments Second Anniversary Name Dropper
    edited September 2015
    Me too.  This is a huge issue for me.  As a Jewish American, I fear living in a time where I currently live in the only country in the world where I am truly safe.  I sometimes wonder if I'm as safe here as I like to believe.  The new socially acceptable form of anti-semitism is being anti-Israel and it's something that has spread like wild fire in the last 7 years because we have leadership that subscribes to this form of anti-semitism.  

    I was pro Rand Paul for a while, but I'd always been uneasy about his lack of support of Israel.  After the last debate, I really stepped out of his parade.  Tonight I got a call from his campaign people inviting me to a debate watch party, and I told them to take me off of their list because I don't believe the state of Israel will be able to survive another US president who doesn't support their basic survival.  Israel is always in a precarious state and they need to have us as a strong ally since we're their only ally.  

  • Me too.  This is a huge issue for me.  As a Jewish American, I fear living in a time where I currently live in the only country in the world where I am truly safe.  I sometimes wonder if I'm as safe here as I like to believe.  The new socially acceptable form of anti-semitism is being anti-Israel and it's something that has spread like wild fire in the last 7 years because we have leadership that subscribes to this form of anti-semitism.  

    I was pro Rand Paul for a while, but I'd always been uneasy about his lack of support of Israel.  After the last debate, I really stepped out of his parade.  Tonight I got a call from his campaign people inviting me to a debate watch party, and I told them to take me off of their list because I don't believe the state of Israel will be able to survive another US president who doesn't support their basic survival.  Israel is always in a precarious state and they need to have us as a strong ally since we're their only ally.  

    Some of my cousins are Jewish, through their mom's family. And, I personally wonder if I have some Jewish heritage way back in my family lines way before my ancestors came to the USA.

    I am a Christian and I have always thought that Israel (both the people and the actual land itself) matter immensely to God (how could they not since Jesus was Jewish). I have a lot of respect and admiration for the Jewish people. I do think God is working in amazing ways in His people and in the land over there.

    I believe in this Scripture, "I will make you into a great nation and I will bless you; I will make your name great, and you will be a blessing. I will bless those who bless you, and whoever curses you I will curse; and all peoples on earth will be blessed through you.” Genesis 12: 2-3. God speaking to Abraham.

    So yes, I too am looking for a candidate who supports Israel. Anti-Semitism is quite prevalent. And, animosity is also growing toward orthodox Christians on a number of fronts.


     

  • BlueBirdMBBlueBirdMB member
    500 Love Its 1000 Comments Second Anniversary Name Dropper
    edited September 2015
    You probably already watched this, but in case you didn't: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x2ZVihACwQ0

    It's the video of Cruz getting booed off stage when he spoke at the In Defense of Christians dinner.  I watched him and it made me cry to know that there are people with such strong moral character and the understanding that having a Christian heart means loving everyone, not just a select group of people. The reaction of the crowd wasn't a surprise to me, but his reaction was a wonderful surprise.


  • You probably already watched this, but in case you didn't: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x2ZVihACwQ0

    It's the video of Cruz getting booed off stage when he spoke at the In Defense of Christians dinner.  I watched him and it made me cry to know that there are people with such strong moral character and the understanding that having a Christian heart means loving everyone, not just a select group of people. The reaction of the crowd wasn't a surprise to me, but his reaction was a wonderful surprise.

    Actually, I had not seen this video. Thanks for sharing. I think Cruz is RIGHT ON here.

    The Hebrew Scriptures in the Book of Jeremiah, says that from David would come a "righteous Branch." Jeremiah 23:5. Referring to Jesus (Jesus' genealogy can be traced back from both Mary, His mother and also Joseph, His earthly father, all the way through the Jewish genealogical lines back to Adam and Eve). Jesus is CLEARLY Jewish.

    Furthermore, text, after text, after text of New Testament Scripture, show Him (Jesus) in the JEWISH TEMPLES preaching and teaching. But what did He preach and Teach? Old Testament Scriptures, AKA the Law or Torah of the Books of Moses (Genesis, Exodus. Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy), the Books of the Prophets or Nevi'im, and the Psalms and Praises also called the Ketuvim.

    He celebrated Jewish festivals and feasts, most notably, Passover (which is where our Christian sacrament of Communion comes from).

    The 12 Disciples were ALL Jewish. And, when Christ died, the Disciples, specifically Paul (formerly Saul a Jew who persecuted Christians before his conversion) were told and directed by God to go to the Gentiles (non-Jews) to share the Good News of Jesus. The Bible states that Gentiles are GRAFTED into the tree of Israel VIA Jesus Christ (Romans 11).

    Most of the New Testament MUST be read with a good understanding of the Old Testament as many of the verses in the NT come from the OT or in the least refer to the OT. For example, Revelation (the last book of the Bible) only makes sense if you read and understand Daniel (a Hebrew OT book).

    Support of Jews and Israel makes total sense in light of Jesus and the entire Bible. No where in Christian Scripture does it state that the Jews don't matter or that the OT ought to be laid aside.

    I would seriously question anyone's understanding of Scripture and whether or not the Holy Spirit dwelt inside a supposed believer who was filled with hatred of Jews or didn't support Israel. To be on this line of thinking or heart emotion is not in agreement with God or His Word.

    God is a covenant making and keeping God. No promise He ever made shall be cancelled out or nullified. He promised that Israel was His. And so it is!!! I have absolutely NO issue with Jews or Israel. I support both.

  • It's also just basic right and wrong.  Love and respect towards everyone regardless of race or religion.

    I'm not a particularly religious person, but I know enough about my heritage to know that in the eyes of anti-semitism, I am Jewish regardless of my practices or beliefs, so I own it.  I firmly believe that the Jewish people can no longer be innocent bystanders to their own destruction and that is not something to criticize or demonize.  The words "never again" are something that must be fought for.
  • Also, a little background about the video, I did some research on the In Defense of Christians Organization and the vast majority of the members are Christians from the Middle East.  It's astonishing that people so close to the problem could not see the forest through the trees.
  • It's also just basic right and wrong.  Love and respect towards everyone regardless of race or religion.

    I'm not a particularly religious person, but I know enough about my heritage to know that in the eyes of anti-semitism, I am Jewish regardless of my practices or beliefs, so I own it.  I firmly believe that the Jewish people can no longer be innocent bystanders to their own destruction and that is not something to criticize or demonize.  The words "never again" are something that must be fought for.

    The Jews are unique in that you're the only people group that has specific ties to a physical location (Jewish by nationalism to a place) AND a religion simultaneously (the Jewish faith). "Jewish" is both a religion and a nationality. That's very unique. Plus, despite all the attacks of evil on your people over the millennia, your civilization has withstood the test of time, since the beginning of time, very unique as well. And, you also have your own language unique to your group...Hebrew (also Aramaic). No one else speaks this.

  • It's also just basic right and wrong.  Love and respect towards everyone regardless of race or religion.

    I'm not a particularly religious person, but I know enough about my heritage to know that in the eyes of anti-semitism, I am Jewish regardless of my practices or beliefs, so I own it.  I firmly believe that the Jewish people can no longer be innocent bystanders to their own destruction and that is not something to criticize or demonize.  The words "never again" are something that must be fought for.

    I do have a question: If so many Jews, whether they are religious or not, support Israel, why then, do Jewish people consistently vote for Democrats? Democrats don't seem to have a consistent voice of support for Israel.

    Furthermore, it always seemed to me that the Jews, being devout religiously (the ones who still believe in God) in many ways, would also support candidates that are aligned with scriptural teachings they espouse. So, again why is there consistent voting support of Democrats who do not support rights to life for the unborn (Psalm 139:13 and Jeremiah 1:5) when the God of the Hebrews clearly supports the unborn and/or traditional marriage as its defined in the ancient Hebrew texts laid down by God in Genesis and subsequently upheld in other Books of Moses (Torah)?

  • It's also just basic right and wrong.  Love and respect towards everyone regardless of race or religion.

    I'm not a particularly religious person, but I know enough about my heritage to know that in the eyes of anti-semitism, I am Jewish regardless of my practices or beliefs, so I own it.  I firmly believe that the Jewish people can no longer be innocent bystanders to their own destruction and that is not something to criticize or demonize.  The words "never again" are something that must be fought for.

    I do have a question: If so many Jews, whether they are religious or not, support Israel, why then, do Jewish people consistently vote for Democrats? Democrats don't seem to have a consistent voice of support for Israel.

    Furthermore, it always seemed to me that the Jews, being devout religiously (the ones who still believe in God) in many ways, would also support candidates that are aligned with scriptural teachings they espouse. So, again why is there consistent voting support of Democrats who do not support rights to life for the unborn (Psalm 139:13 and Jeremiah 1:5) when the God of the Hebrews clearly supports the unborn and/or traditional marriage as its defined in the ancient Hebrew texts laid down by God in Genesis and subsequently upheld in other Books of Moses (Torah)?

    I will never be able to answer the first question.  Most of my family are staunch liberals.  I think they allow themselves to be bought by the misconception that the Democratic party is the "party of the people".  Honestly, I have no idea.  It frustrates me to no end.

    As for the second question, the majority of American Jews who identify as being Jewish, also identify as not believing in God or questioning the existence of God.  Not to say that is the case for all Jewish  Americans, as there are certainly some very devout people.  Most of those people who questioned the existence of God also said they practiced their faith regularly.  Being Jewish for many is far more about the cultural aspect than the religious aspect.  It's not nearly as dogmatic a religion as Christianity, so it's easy to think of practicing the religion as a way of holding on to cultural traditions.  Personally, I believe that if not for continued persecution, the religion would have ceased to exist a thousand years ago.  In fact, in countries where Jewish immigrants have been completely accepted into the culture, the religion has ceased to exist.  China is an excellent example of that.

    All that is my way of saying that mutual understanding of scripture isn't going to mean a lot in the voting booth.  There aren't enough Jews who take the scriptures that literally.  
  • It's also just basic right and wrong.  Love and respect towards everyone regardless of race or religion.

    I'm not a particularly religious person, but I know enough about my heritage to know that in the eyes of anti-semitism, I am Jewish regardless of my practices or beliefs, so I own it.  I firmly believe that the Jewish people can no longer be innocent bystanders to their own destruction and that is not something to criticize or demonize.  The words "never again" are something that must be fought for.

    I do have a question: If so many Jews, whether they are religious or not, support Israel, why then, do Jewish people consistently vote for Democrats? Democrats don't seem to have a consistent voice of support for Israel.

    Furthermore, it always seemed to me that the Jews, being devout religiously (the ones who still believe in God) in many ways, would also support candidates that are aligned with scriptural teachings they espouse. So, again why is there consistent voting support of Democrats who do not support rights to life for the unborn (Psalm 139:13 and Jeremiah 1:5) when the God of the Hebrews clearly supports the unborn and/or traditional marriage as its defined in the ancient Hebrew texts laid down by God in Genesis and subsequently upheld in other Books of Moses (Torah)?

    I will never be able to answer the first question.  Most of my family are staunch liberals.  I think they allow themselves to be bought by the misconception that the Democratic party is the "party of the people".  Honestly, I have no idea.  It frustrates me to no end.

    As for the second question, the majority of American Jews who identify as being Jewish, also identify as not believing in God or questioning the existence of God.  Not to say that is the case for all Jewish  Americans, as there are certainly some very devout people.  Most of those people who questioned the existence of God also said they practiced their faith regularly.  Being Jewish for many is far more about the cultural aspect than the religious aspect.  It's not nearly as dogmatic a religion as Christianity, so it's easy to think of practicing the religion as a way of holding on to cultural traditions.  Personally, I believe that if not for continued persecution, the religion would have ceased to exist a thousand years ago.  In fact, in countries where Jewish immigrants have been completely accepted into the culture, the religion has ceased to exist.  China is an excellent example of that.

    All that is my way of saying that mutual understanding of scripture isn't going to mean a lot in the voting booth.  There aren't enough Jews who take the scriptures that literally.  

    Interesting. DH and I know quite a bit about Hebrew Feasts and Festivals -ones your people still celebrate today and others. It's amazing to us how rich the traditions are and how deep the scriptural and religious roots go into the traditions themselves. Yet, as you stated and also as what's happened with many Christians celebrations,  is the secularization of them. They really loose their depth, whether Jewish or Christian, when the celebrations become just about a "party" or meal, or just what we've always done.

    Due to the worldwide persecution of my brothers and sisters, both Jewish and Christian, I feel a great sense of responsibility to take very seriously the freedom I have to practice the religious celebrations very devoutly and seriously, not taking them lightly and enjoying them, but not letting them become about "checking off a box," or about a meal or JUST a family gathering.

    Last year, DH and I actually ended celebrations of Christmas with Santa and Easter with the Bunny. We're really just taking the Holy Days back to their roots and becoming more basic and fundamental.

  • One thing that makes me sad about the world we live in...and have lived in for centuries actually...is how much animosity there is between Christianity, Judaism, and Islam.  We ALL worship the same God.  The SAME one!  With largely the same morals and tenets.

    You'd think that would bring us together...but it doesn't...it drives us apart.

    This discussion...a little bit...reminds me of when I read Exodus by Leon Uris.  A large part of the book is about the United Nations vote on establishing the State of Israel.  I knew it was a good book when I caught myself getting so into the story that I wondered, "What's going to happen?  How are they going to vote?"  And then laughing at myself because, of course I know how they are going to vote.

    The U.S. was a strong supporter back then and should be again. 

  • Judaism is the only religion in the world that is also a culture and ethnicity, not really from our own choosing, but more because we have been forced to live separately from societies throughout the world throughout time.  I can see how to a Christian, viewing holidays and rituals as traditions and less as religious would seem to lack depth, but I don't see it that way at all.  It has cultural significance to me and is an important part of my life.  I'm sure there are many Jews who would disagree with my analysis, but I can see from my own family, even the very devout members, that the importance to them is more cultural than religious.  

    But yes, we all do worship the same God.  It's insane that for the past two thousand years, we haven't found better ways of getting along with those who share many of our own beliefs.

    I love Exodus!  It's a fantastic history of the founding of Israel.  Have you read The Chosen and The Promise by Chaim Potok?  Also a nice history of the founding of Israel told through the eyes of Jewish Americans.
  • One thing that makes me sad about the world we live in...and have lived in for centuries actually...is how much animosity there is between Christianity, Judaism, and Islam.  We ALL worship the same God.  The SAME one!  With largely the same morals and tenets.

    You'd think that would bring us together...but it doesn't...it drives us apart.

    This discussion...a little bit...reminds me of when I read Exodus by Leon Uris.  A large part of the book is about the United Nations vote on establishing the State of Israel.  I knew it was a good book when I caught myself getting so into the story that I wondered, "What's going to happen?  How are they going to vote?"  And then laughing at myself because, of course I know how they are going to vote.

    The U.S. was a strong supporter back then and should be again.

    The Quran actually terms Christians and Jews as "People of the Book." Meaning there is a notably similarity between the Muslims and the other two. These three religions do have the same "father." Abraham. The Hebrew texts do prophesy that the children of Isaac (Abraham and Sarah) and the children of Ishmael (Abraham and Hagar) would be at odds with one another.

    Upon our study of these faiths and their commonalities it's quite obvious that Judaism arose first. Descendents of Ishmael were around before Christians, but they didn't organize into a religion (Islam) until the 7th Century when it was founded by Mohammad. Christianity started with Jesus' death and resurrection in the 1st Century when Jews who followed Jesus began to speak that Message. The name "Christian" didn't come about until after Jesus' death during the first 1-2 decades of the Gospel being spread.

    One problem, though, is that Muslims don't think Christians are monotheists. They see/hear 1 God in 3 persons (Father, Son (Jesus) and Holy Spirit) and they think we worship many gods. The concept of one God in three persons is a tough concept for the Muslim to grasp.

    This is a cheesy example, but if you peal a banana you have three segments on one fruit. It's the same idea with Christianity - 3 persons in one Godhead.

    Their teachings also promote that any god other than Allah is heresy. So, it's one of the reasons why they kill Christians who refuse to convert to Islam. When they see us worshipping Christ and the Holy Spirit, along with the Father - to them it's worshipping many gods. We are Infidels for that reason.

    Many Christians over time have forgotten or ignored (or maybe they didn't know about) the Jewish roots of their faith. I cringe when people state that the Jews killed Jesus. While that's sort of true (since He was in a Jewish culture and part of that Nation [Tribe of Judah]), it was literally a distinct group of people that did have Him killed - the religious leaders did. The common folk were the ones who supported Jesus. Anyway, I know the Jewish leaders had Jesus killed after Jesus was betrayed by a Jewish disciple (Judas). But, that still doesn't cause me to hate Jews or not recognize my faith has its roots in that culture and worldview.

    I'm not sure I can go so far as to state that I worship the same god as Muslims, though. Mohammad, their prophet gave word from Allah (as written in the Quran) to kill Jews and Christians who don't convert to Islam.

    If Allah is the "same" god as the god Jews and Christians worship (Yahweh - the I AM), how could that same god order the death of his other children? It doesn't logically add up. He told the Muslims to kill the Jews and Christians? But, to the Jews and Christians, he told to turn the other cheek?

    I'm not saying this out of hate. It's that there is a fundamental and sizeable difference in the teachings of these religions. They share a common ancestry and many of the same morals and societal values, but I cannot go so far to say that we all worship the same god.

  • One thing that makes me sad about the world we live in...and have lived in for centuries actually...is how much animosity there is between Christianity, Judaism, and Islam.  We ALL worship the same God.  The SAME one!  With largely the same morals and tenets.

    You'd think that would bring us together...but it doesn't...it drives us apart.

    This discussion...a little bit...reminds me of when I read Exodus by Leon Uris.  A large part of the book is about the United Nations vote on establishing the State of Israel.  I knew it was a good book when I caught myself getting so into the story that I wondered, "What's going to happen?  How are they going to vote?"  And then laughing at myself because, of course I know how they are going to vote.

    The U.S. was a strong supporter back then and should be again.

    The Quran actually terms Christians and Jews as "People of the Book." Meaning there is a notably similarity between the Muslims and the other two. These three religions do have the same "father." Abraham. The Hebrew texts do prophesy that the children of Isaac (Abraham and Sarah) and the children of Ishmael (Abraham and Hagar) would be at odds with one another.

    Upon our study of these faiths and their commonalities it's quite obvious that Judaism arose first. Descendents of Ishmael were around before Christians, but they didn't organize into a religion (Islam) until the 7th Century when it was founded by Mohammad. Christianity started with Jesus' death and resurrection in the 1st Century when Jews who followed Jesus began to speak that Message. The name "Christian" didn't come about until after Jesus' death during the first 1-2 decades of the Gospel being spread.

    One problem, though, is that Muslims don't think Christians are monotheists. They see/hear 1 God in 3 persons (Father, Son (Jesus) and Holy Spirit) and they think we worship many gods. The concept of one God in three persons is a tough concept for the Muslim to grasp.

    This is a cheesy example, but if you peal a banana you have three segments on one fruit. It's the same idea with Christianity - 3 persons in one Godhead.

    Their teachings also promote that any god other than Allah is heresy. So, it's one of the reasons why they kill Christians who refuse to convert to Islam. When they see us worshipping Christ and the Holy Spirit, along with the Father - to them it's worshipping many gods. We are Infidels for that reason.

    Many Christians over time have forgotten or ignored (or maybe they didn't know about) the Jewish roots of their faith. I cringe when people state that the Jews killed Jesus. While that's sort of true (since He was in a Jewish culture and part of that Nation [Tribe of Judah]), it was literally a distinct group of people that did have Him killed - the religious leaders did. The common folk were the ones who supported Jesus. Anyway, I know the Jewish leaders had Jesus killed after Jesus was betrayed by a Jewish disciple (Judas). But, that still doesn't cause me to hate Jews or not recognize my faith has its roots in that culture and worldview.

    I'm not sure I can go so far as to state that I worship the same god as Muslims, though. Mohammad, their prophet gave word from Allah (as written in the Quran) to kill Jews and Christians who don't convert to Islam.

    If Allah is the "same" god as the god Jews and Christians worship (Yahweh - the I AM), how could that same god order the death of his other children? It doesn't logically add up. He told the Muslims to kill the Jews and Christians? But, to the Jews and Christians, he told to turn the other cheek?

    I'm not saying this out of hate. It's that there is a fundamental and sizeable difference in the teachings of these religions. They share a common ancestry and many of the same morals and societal values, but I cannot go so far to say that we all worship the same god.

    This is literally the beginning of all anti-semitism.  Over time, people forgot where the original hate came from, but it's from this one statement.  

    I with you about the similarities and differences.  Obviously all 3 religions have common beginnings, so in essence, we're all religious "cousins", but they grew in different ways.

  • edited September 2015

    One thing that makes me sad about the world we live in...and have lived in for centuries actually...is how much animosity there is between Christianity, Judaism, and Islam.  We ALL worship the same God.  The SAME one!  With largely the same morals and tenets.

    You'd think that would bring us together...but it doesn't...it drives us apart.

    This discussion...a little bit...reminds me of when I read Exodus by Leon Uris.  A large part of the book is about the United Nations vote on establishing the State of Israel.  I knew it was a good book when I caught myself getting so into the story that I wondered, "What's going to happen?  How are they going to vote?"  And then laughing at myself because, of course I know how they are going to vote.

    The U.S. was a strong supporter back then and should be again.

    The Quran actually terms Christians and Jews as "People of the Book." Meaning there is a notably similarity between the Muslims and the other two. These three religions do have the same "father." Abraham. The Hebrew texts do prophesy that the children of Isaac (Abraham and Sarah) and the children of Ishmael (Abraham and Hagar) would be at odds with one another.

    Upon our study of these faiths and their commonalities it's quite obvious that Judaism arose first. Descendents of Ishmael were around before Christians, but they didn't organize into a religion (Islam) until the 7th Century when it was founded by Mohammad. Christianity started with Jesus' death and resurrection in the 1st Century when Jews who followed Jesus began to speak that Message. The name "Christian" didn't come about until after Jesus' death during the first 1-2 decades of the Gospel being spread.

    One problem, though, is that Muslims don't think Christians are monotheists. They see/hear 1 God in 3 persons (Father, Son (Jesus) and Holy Spirit) and they think we worship many gods. The concept of one God in three persons is a tough concept for the Muslim to grasp.

    This is a cheesy example, but if you peal a banana you have three segments on one fruit. It's the same idea with Christianity - 3 persons in one Godhead.

    Their teachings also promote that any god other than Allah is heresy. So, it's one of the reasons why they kill Christians who refuse to convert to Islam. When they see us worshipping Christ and the Holy Spirit, along with the Father - to them it's worshipping many gods. We are Infidels for that reason.

    Many Christians over time have forgotten or ignored (or maybe they didn't know about) the Jewish roots of their faith. I cringe when people state that the Jews killed Jesus. While that's sort of true (since He was in a Jewish culture and part of that Nation [Tribe of Judah]), it was literally a distinct group of people that did have Him killed - the religious leaders did. The common folk were the ones who supported Jesus. Anyway, I know the Jewish leaders had Jesus killed after Jesus was betrayed by a Jewish disciple (Judas). But, that still doesn't cause me to hate Jews or not recognize my faith has its roots in that culture and worldview.

    I'm not sure I can go so far as to state that I worship the same god as Muslims, though. Mohammad, their prophet gave word from Allah (as written in the Quran) to kill Jews and Christians who don't convert to Islam.

    If Allah is the "same" god as the god Jews and Christians worship (Yahweh - the I AM), how could that same god order the death of his other children? It doesn't logically add up. He told the Muslims to kill the Jews and Christians? But, to the Jews and Christians, he told to turn the other cheek?

    I'm not saying this out of hate. It's that there is a fundamental and sizeable difference in the teachings of these religions. They share a common ancestry and many of the same morals and societal values, but I cannot go so far to say that we all worship the same god.

    This is literally the beginning of all anti-semitism.  Over time, people forgot where the original hate came from, but it's from this one statement.  

    I with you about the similarities and differences.  Obviously all 3 religions have common beginnings, so in essence, we're all religious "cousins", but they grew in different ways.

    People (modern or any people throughout time) fail to realize that in killing Jesus, they, the Jews killed one of their own. It's nonsense to hate the Jews when Jesus was a Jew. People cannot hate Jews and love Jesus. The Jews were Jesus' kin folk, family, and culture. Just can't. It's a logical fallacy to hate Jews and love Jesus. Plus, it's all morally wrong.
  • We could be friends @MommyLiberty5013 :)

    Haha. Thanks. I'm fine with that. I'm friends with a lot of people with whom I agree with and lots of people with whom I disagree. My own sister is a left-leaning non-Christian and she's one of my closest friends. We talk religion and politics a lot actually.


  • I really shouldn't get involved in this conversation because I know very little about religion. But when I asked my husband, who does know a lot about religion, why Hitler had such a problem with the Jews, he said it stemmed from the fact that the Catholic church banned charging interest on loans. Jews were not held to the same restriction so they wound up with more money because they were willing to charge interest on loans.
  •  
    People (modern or any people throughout time) fail to realize that in killing Jesus, they, the Jews killed one of their own. It's nonsense to hate the Jews when Jesus was a Jew. People cannot hate Jews and love Jesus. The Jews were Jesus' kin folk, family, and culture. Just can't. It's a logical fallacy to hate Jews and love Jesus. Plus, it's all morally wrong.

    I have always found it so bizarre when Christians are anti-Semites for exactly this reason.  It's like...ummm...you realize our Jesus Christ was Jewish, right?  And as for "it was the Jews who killed Jesus Christ"...even if I take that statement at face value...okay, and what does that have to do with hatred toward an entire group of people 2,000 years later?  I promise, no Jewish person living today "killed Jesus".

    @BluebirdMB,  I have not read any books by Chaim Potok.  Thanks for the recommendation.

    @smerka, my philosophical question for the day.  Did Hitler even actually hate Jews?  Or was that group just a convenient scapegoat for him to use to rally the country around him?

    But to paint the scene of Germany at the time of Hitler's ascent, WWI had left Germany in a deep, deep Depression with crazy inflation that lasted for many years.  Much of the population lived in desperation.  I hadn't heard about the interest on loans...though I do think of Germany as being more Protestant than Catholic anyway...but I think, generally speaking, Jewish citizens tended to be more affluent than average.  By turning them into the enemy, it certainly allowed Hitler to then have the excuse to cede their homes/businesses/possessions into the Third Reich.

    Sort of like during the witch hunts of the Middle Ages.  If a woman was prosperous and owned land/possessions that her heirs wanted...well, just declare her a witch...and now her stuff is theirs.  In a dispute with a neighbor?  Declare her a witch and problem solved.

  • smerka said:
    I really shouldn't get involved in this conversation because I know very little about religion. But when I asked my husband, who does know a lot about religion, why Hitler had such a problem with the Jews, he said it stemmed from the fact that the Catholic church banned charging interest on loans. Jews were not held to the same restriction so they wound up with more money because they were willing to charge interest on loans.
    That is the grossest over simplification I've ever heard.  From the beginning of anti semitism, one of the main stereotypes of Jews has been that they are rich and control all the money and therefore power.  That's been used as a justification for the murder of countless people.  If they really had so much money and power, how is they always end up being run out of countries or murdered? 

    But that's just literally one of many stereotypes, but it's the only one that could be used to explain the above simplified explanation.  Anti semitism has been an issue in Europe for two thousand years and it bubbles over now and again.  The Holocaust was just one instance of it bubbling over- just one of countless instances throughout time.
  • Did anybody see the Ann Coulter tweet during the GOP debate?  "How many f---cking Jews do these people think there are in the United States?" as reference to the amount of mentions of Israel in the debate.

    I can't stand that woman.  Did it ever occur to her that perhaps the GOP candidates aren't trying to pander to the Jewish vote (they aren't going to get it no matter what they say anyways), but maybe actually believe in Israel's right to exist? 
  • My original conversation with my husband started with me asking Why did Hitler hate the Jews so much. He brought up the interest on loans and that Jews traditionally had isolated themselves (out of self preservation). So they kept to themselves and it made others suspicious of them. I don't agree with any of the reasons for antisemitism but I also don't understand how people can hate another religion so much that they would kill. So yes it may be a gross oversimplification, but I also freely admit I am not knowledgable about the subject.
  • smerka said:
    My original conversation with my husband started with me asking Why did Hitler hate the Jews so much. He brought up the interest on loans and that Jews traditionally had isolated themselves (out of self preservation). So they kept to themselves and it made others suspicious of them. I don't agree with any of the reasons for antisemitism but I also don't understand how people can hate another religion so much that they would kill. So yes it may be a gross oversimplification, but I also freely admit I am not knowledgable about the subject.
    Another somewhat false stereotype.  It's true that in some countries throughout history, they were forced to live in ghettos and so were forced to be separate but in pre WWI Germany, most German Jews didn't even consider themselves to be Jewish as they weren't practicing.  They considered themselves Germans, but Germans didn't consider them to be Germans.

    It's actually a stereotype that's being perpetuated again in Europe.  That somehow the Jews live separately and keep themselves that way and therefore are suspicious looking.  Bill Nye was on Bill Maher a few months ago and when asked why the Jews of Europe are being attacked again, specifically in France, his answer was "well if they got to know their neighbors better there wouldn't be a problem".  Getting to know your neighbor?  They are FRENCH.  They live in FRANCE.  They don't live in ghettos where they are cut off from society.  They are fully assimilated into the culture.

    If you want an answer to your original question, I'll give you this.  For over two thousand years, the Jewish people have been systematically persecuted.  I'd say it started with "the Jews killed Christ", but the true beginnings have been forgot as is the case with all hate.  But throughout those two thousand years, whenever a country that had a small Jewish population experienced times of economic strife, they blamed the Jews because they were a small minority, indefensible, and ultimately, an easy scapegoat.  The sentiments always seem to be in Europe underneath it all- they just can't get rid of it- and when times are bad, the hate comes out in violence.  

    I'm not trying to be defensive and I'm certainly not upset in anyway, I just think it's important to correct stereotypes.
  • edited September 2015
     
    smerka said:
    My original conversation with my husband started with me asking Why did Hitler hate the Jews so much. He brought up the interest on loans and that Jews traditionally had isolated themselves (out of self preservation). So they kept to themselves and it made others suspicious of them. I don't agree with any of the reasons for antisemitism but I also don't understand how people can hate another religion so much that they would kill. So yes it may be a gross oversimplification, but I also freely admit I am not knowledgable about the subject.
    Another somewhat false stereotype.  It's true that in some countries throughout history, they were forced to live in ghettos and so were forced to be separate but in pre WWI Germany, most German Jews didn't even consider themselves to be Jewish as they weren't practicing.  They considered themselves Germans, but Germans didn't consider them to be Germans.

    It's actually a stereotype that's being perpetuated again in Europe.  That somehow the Jews live separately and keep themselves that way and therefore are suspicious looking.  Bill Nye was on Bill Maher a few months ago and when asked why the Jews of Europe are being attacked again, specifically in France, his answer was "well if they got to know their neighbors better there wouldn't be a problem".  Getting to know your neighbor?  They are FRENCH.  They live in FRANCE.  They don't live in ghettos where they are cut off from society.  They are fully assimilated into the culture.

    If you want an answer to your original question, I'll give you this.  For over two thousand years, the Jewish people have been systematically persecuted.  I'd say it started with "the Jews killed Christ", but the true beginnings have been forgot as is the case with all hate.  But throughout those two thousand years, whenever a country that had a small Jewish population experienced times of economic strife, they blamed the Jews because they were a small minority, indefensible, and ultimately, an easy scapegoat.  The sentiments always seem to be in Europe underneath it all- they just can't get rid of it- and when times are bad, the hate comes out in violence.  

    I'm not trying to be defensive and I'm certainly not upset in anyway, I just think it's important to correct stereotypes.

    The other thing is that it's totally normal human behavior to congregate and associate with people who share commonalities with you including religion and nationality. It's easy for outsiders to say that people are being isolationists, when in fact everybody does this same exact thing!

    It's not like I'm all of a sudden going to hang in a Hispanic neighborhood. I don't have anything against Hispanics, but beyond like the cuisine and speaking okay Spanish, I do not have a reason to go hang out with Senora Perez! I don't say they are isolating themselves anymore than they would say I am isolating myself.

    I have a spiritual belief that the Jews have always been persecuted because they are from whom Christ came. If Evil (in my faith, Satan) could eliminate them, then Jesus would never come. Once He did come, Satan's objective was then to thwart the spread of the Good News/Gospel by persecuting Christians. But, Satan ALSO continued and continues to pursue and harm Jews because they are STILL God's chosen people. In Christianity, Satan hates whatever God loves. He is also called the Destroyer.

    The word "scapegoat" came from the Jews.

    "Scapegoat derives from the common English translation of the Hebrew term azazel (Hebrew: עזאזל) which occurs in Leviticus 16:8 after the prefix la- (Hebrew לַ "for"). And Aaron shall place lots upon the two he goats: one lot "For the Lord," and the other lot, "For Azazel. (for absolute removal)" Leviticus, Leviticus 16:8. In the Bible, the goat for Azazel was a goat that was designated (Hebrew לַעֲזָאזֵֽל la-aza'zeyl) to be outcast in the desert as part of the ceremonies of the Day of Atonement, that began during the Exodus with the original Tabernacle and continued through the times of the temples in Jerusalem." I quoted from Wikipedia since it's a definition of a word.

  • Did anybody see the Ann Coulter tweet during the GOP debate?  "How many f---cking Jews do these people think there are in the United States?" as reference to the amount of mentions of Israel in the debate.

    I can't stand that woman.  Did it ever occur to her that perhaps the GOP candidates aren't trying to pander to the Jewish vote (they aren't going to get it no matter what they say anyways), but maybe actually believe in Israel's right to exist? 

    Bolded. I think it's odd that by standing for Israel the candidates are actually pandering to Christians. I really don't get why Jews don't also vote for their historical and scriptural homeland by trying to elect candidates that will welcome a friendship with it.

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