spin-off from yesterday's post

JOYFUL2US

thank you all for your responses! now that hubby and i decided on the zero based budget and 100.00 buffer in checking, we are trying to figure out savings. What do you all keep in your Emergency fund? right now we are at 1000.00 which to me is not enough but hubby thinks its fine. We keep it in a regular saving account at our bank. what is too little and what is too much. i know every ones situation is different tho.

hoffse

It's going to depend on a lot of things:

1) Do you own a home

2) Do you have children

3) Are your cars reaching an age where they might need a major repair

4) What are your insurance deductibles (combined)

5) Do you work in an industry where you might be laid off

6) Can you survive on one income if one of you lost your job

7) What is your risk tolerance

8) What is your monthly savings rate (meaning how much of your cash flow could you divert to an emergency)

H and I keep no less than $5K in cash at all times.  Most of the time we have closer to $10K in cash floating around between various accounts, but we never let it drop below $5K.  

We own a house and we are just waiting for our A/C to die and need to be replaced.  We have pretty high deductible insurance policies, so we need to keep enough on hand for that.  However, we have no kids.  We driver newer cars, and we have a pretty high savings rate.  We don't need both incomes, and we make a similar amount of money so if either one of us lost a job we could survive on the other income.  We are also in a pretty stable field.

For us, we are most likely to use our emergency fund for a major home repair (the A/C) or a medical deductible if one of us has an accident.  We aren't likely to use ours for job loss, so we keep less in cash than some on this board.

If we worked in an unstable industry or if we couldn't survive on a single income we would look to have 3-6 months worth of bare-bones expenses in cash.

abrewer5

This varies on your job stability and your expenses versus income ratio.

If you have relatively stable jobs that you're unlikely to lose or you can live off one income if something happened to the other person then I would recommend around 3 months of expenses.

If your jobs aren't incredibly stable or you require 2 incomes to meet your bills then I would recommend 6 months of expenses.

 

 

julieanne912

My H has 2 months worth of bare bones combined expenses in a savings account at Wells Fargo.  I wish we had more like 3-4 though.  It would be hard, but we could make it work if I lost my job, which is the more likely scenario as I'm in a more volatile industry in a lower end position.  Our area has tons of job openings for retail/grocery/fast food type jobs so I'd do that if the goings got tough even though it pays about half of what I make now.  We'd be completely screwed if he lost his job as he's the main breadwinner (makes 3xs as much as I do) and was out of work more than a couple months, but that's far less likely due to his skill set and industry.  He's never been out of a job more than a week or so.    

However, we don't have kids and could easily sell our house and walk away with money from that due to equity if things became desperate though.  The house is also brand new so any large emergency expenses for that would be due to something really crazy going on.... likely something homeowners insurance would cover.  We actually still have 4 months left on a warranty with the builder for the entire house, and we have 9 years left on a structural warranty as well.  

I agree w/ the others that there are some outside factors here... but depending on those, 3-6 months should be the goal.  

lbonga1

Right now I have $500 for emergencies, but I'm still new to MM, and I'm in debt payoff mode. I'm also on unemployment, so our funds have been drained quite a bit. We'll eventually work our way up to having 3-6 months of expenses saved ($6k-$12k). We don't currently own a house. We have two kids, but I'm not as concerned with having to use emergency funds for medical issues because the hospitals in my area generally allow you to make interest-free payments if necessary. I can't think of any other emergencies that my kids would have. My car is very new and still under warranty, and we could deal with using only one car for a while if my FI's car needed a big repair. We were a one car family until we had our second baby so we're already used to it. Finally, the industry I am going into is in high demand, and I will be my family's main source of income. 

als1982

We only keep $1,000 set aside since we're in debt payoff/retirement savings mode, but if something were to happen, after set expenses we have about $6,000 left over every month that we could use to cash flow an emergency. That said, we don't have children and if we did, I'd likely want to have significantly more stocked away.

Sisugal

I like 6 month's expenses as an emergency fund.  Especially if you have a home and/or children.
If you have job losses, major illness - you will NEED this!
IF you have a good deal of debt, then perhaps only 3 months while you work on getting rid of the debt ASAP.

cbee817

We have 4 months on hand (in savings account) and 4 more months that we can get to if needed (CDs). We also have 2 kids, both of us work in very opposite fields, a mortgage, and 1 car loan. DH has already been through a few layoffs and rehires with his old school district and just got a job with a new and much more stable school district. The chances of him being laid off there are much smaller but he isn't tenured yet with the new district so that's why I like to keep that much on hand. It may not be the most practical use of that $, but it gives me peace of mind.. the amount we have saved may change in the future. 

brij2006

We follow Dave Ramseys' principals, but we had $1,000 in emergency fund while in debt payoff mode.  Once everything but the mortgage was paid off, we bumped it to 9 months of expenses (that's my doings, my H would have been fine with 3 months since our jobs are stable).  So now we have $15,000 in our Efund, but we have no payments.  So that amount would last us quite a while on a bare bones budget and no income.

We have a child, house, and high insurance deductibles.  

dragonstarjk

I'm going to echo pps, this should be determined by a LOT of different factors.  For H and I, we have $2000 in a dedicated e-fund, which we are okay with.  However, we have recently decided to beef it up to $3K by the end of 2016.

We are comfortable with having a lower e-fund amount for a lot of reasons:

-Our monthly expenses are relatively low, especially when you factor out 'optional' expenses.  If one of us was to lose our jobs, we would immediately axe all discretionary spending. 

-We have additional savings accounts that we could pull from if needed.  While they are earmarked for other things, we obviously could use them in an emergency situation.

-We don't have children, nor do we plan to have any.

-Both of our vehicles are 5 years old or less and in great condition.

-I work in a very stable field and H works in a fairly stable field; the chances of one of us losing our jobs is not great.  However, if we did, either one of us would get whichever jobs we needed to in order to pay the bills.  Fast food jobs are plentiful around here.  I would hate it, but I would do it.

-We have discussed the 'what ifs' as far as emergency planning goes.  If one of us lost a job, we would not only work whatever we could find, but we would be willing to sell our vehicles and pretty much anything we own as long as we got to keep our house.  Knowing that we have that mindset makes me feel more comfortable with a smaller e-fund.

-If one of us had a medical emergency and there were no other alternatives, we do have access to a significant amount of credit card lines.  This would be an absolutely last resort but at least it's there.

-We are not debt-averse or risk-averse.

jessica490

We have $10K in ours but we just bought a house so we want to get that up to $15-$20K. We have no kids and no plans for any. I like to keep a large amount in there in case we loose a job, have a big medical emergency etc....it just makes me feel better. If we need it for other things we always borrow the $ then put it back.

vlagrl29

our emergency fund is for unexpected expenses like medical bills, auto repairs, house repairs.  we are not worried about not being able to work as we are self employed and have a disability policy on DH so we don't fund it as if we were ever to be laid off - so $6k is what we strive for and feel $1k is just not enough.  Ideally I want it up to 10K and hope for that to happen in 2016.

Mustard76

We keep $20k on hand right now. We just bought another house, so we've been going through a lot of cash, but we try to save $2k/month. We have a target amount that we'd like to have, but we're a long way off. The only debt we have is our mortgage and H's truck loan. (That's paid out of his allowance, though.) We like to keep more cash than (probably) the average household, but we rely on both incomes. Barring job loss or medical emergency, we don't touch that cash. We have another account that we toss money in to save for vacations, our down payment/moving expenses, whatever else comes up. It always sits there, but its purpose changes.

We have fairly stable jobs, no kids and no immediate plans for any. The truck is newer, but barely gets any use and my car is 7 years old, but still in decent shape.

simplyelise

Before we have kids and a house, we plan to get up to 15k in our emergency fund, 6 months of our current expenses. Most financial advisers recommend 3-6 months of expenses as a solid emergency fund, but as previous posters have said, it depends on your liability and your risk comfort.

Currently, we are in debt payoff mode, we don't have children, we have a low rent on our apartment, few expenses, we make similar amounts in stable jobs, our health insurance family deductible is $600 with $2000 OOP, our car insurance deductibles are $500 each, and we have about $2000 a month we could divert to an emergency.

So our e-fund has $2500 in it right now. But we also know that my husband's 2000 malibu is not going to last forever, so we've been saving $100/month since the start of the year. We have $1000 in that sinking fund and we'll start diverting more towards it after we are debt free in July '16.

JOYFUL2US

@hoffse we have 2 kids twins age 2, I am a pediatrician and my husband is a family law attorney. our insurance deductibles are 1000.00 and our vehicles are 5 years old. the 1000.00 is Right at our finger tips in case something happened. We also have other savings that would take at least 3 days to get from other accounts if needed. I think we need to have more than 1000.00 right at our finger tips. You all give great advice on this board!

short+sassy

I wanted to throw in about medical bills and e-funds.  Don't get me wrong, having enough in your e-fund to cover your full medical (and other) deductibles is optimal.

But in a "god forbid" situation and there is a major medical crisis with not enough money in the e-fund to cover it, the vast majority of hospitals will put people on a payment plan for the bill.  Usually no interest.  They are just ecstatic people are proactive about wanting to set up a plan.  I suspect a lot of doctors would do this also, if asked.

Always negotiate hospital bills...after THOROUGHLY checking them, because they are usually rife with mistakes.  That are "magically" rarely in your favor.  And, if you do have an e-fund to pay the bill in full with cash, that is serious bargaining power.  Use it to your advantage. 

vlagrl29

short+sassy said:

I wanted to throw in about medical bills and e-funds.  Don't get me wrong, having enough in your e-fund to cover your full medical (and other) deductibles is optimal.

But in a "god forbid" situation and there is a major medical crisis with not enough money in the e-fund to cover it, the vast majority of hospitals will put people on a payment plan for the bill.  Usually no interest.  They are just ecstatic people are proactive about wanting to set up a plan.  I suspect a lot of doctors would do this also, if asked.

Always negotiate hospital bills...after THOROUGHLY checking them, because they are usually rife with mistakes.  That are "magically" rarely in your favor.  And, if you do have an e-fund to pay the bill in full with cash, that is serious bargaining power.  Use it to your advantage. 

YES!  Agreed.  We've had to do that twice.  0% interest and if you pay it off in full you usually get a discount.  If we had medical bills that would take over our savings we would do it again.

julieanne912

short+sassy said:

I wanted to throw in about medical bills and e-funds.  Don't get me wrong, having enough in your e-fund to cover your full medical (and other) deductibles is optimal.

But in a "god forbid" situation and there is a major medical crisis with not enough money in the e-fund to cover it, the vast majority of hospitals will put people on a payment plan for the bill.  Usually no interest.  They are just ecstatic people are proactive about wanting to set up a plan.  I suspect a lot of doctors would do this also, if asked.

Always negotiate hospital bills...after THOROUGHLY checking them, because they are usually rife with mistakes.  That are "magically" rarely in your favor.  And, if you do have an e-fund to pay the bill in full with cash, that is serious bargaining power.  Use it to your advantage. 

Many hospitals also have "charity care" programs to help you pay the bills.  In 2009 I fell and broke my arm and it required surgery to add pins.  I had insurance but it was a high deductible plan.  My hospital bill after insurance was around $3,000.... I was pretty much at the lowest of the low in terms of finances at that point, so I applied for the charity care at the hospital and they paid all but $900 of it, and they let me make interest free payments on that $900, and the payments were based on what I told them I could afford.  My brother also got VERY sick due to black mold in his rental apartment.  He was just out of school, new to Oregon, and uninsured and unemployed at the time.  His hospital bill was in the $40,000 range.  A charity care program picked up the entire thing.

Obviously it's not something that should be taken advantage of, and it does take some leg work on your end (I had to submit tax returns, my monthly budget, pay stubs and hardship letter) but pretty much every hospital has a program like this for when times are really hard.  

hoffse

JOYFUL2US said:

@hoffse we have 2 kids twins age 2, I am a pediatrician and my husband is a family law attorney. our insurance deductibles are 1000.00 and our vehicles are 5 years old. the 1000.00 is Right at our finger tips in case something happened. We also have other savings that would take at least 3 days to get from other accounts if needed. I think we need to have more than 1000.00 right at our finger tips. You all give great advice on this board!

With your jobs I could see you guys having high incomes but also high liabilities (school debt being the biggie, and also licensing/insurance if you guys are self-employed).  

I think the more you make, the more the cash flow diversion comes into play.  In theory, H and I could divert nearly $5K to an emergency if we really had to (we prepay a lot of our debt).  That plus our $5K bare bones minimum would be plenty to cover just about anything except job loss.  We also utilize credit cards for points, so that builds in a 30-45 day buffer.  

I figure when the A/C dies, we will charge a new unit to build in some buffer time, collect what we can from savings, and divert the difference from our cash flow.  

I talk about our A/C dying so much I should probably start a fund for it.  It was scheduled to die about 6 years ago.

short+sassy

julieanne912 said:

short+sassy said:

I wanted to throw in about medical bills and e-funds.  Don't get me wrong, having enough in your e-fund to cover your full medical (and other) deductibles is optimal.

But in a "god forbid" situation and there is a major medical crisis with not enough money in the e-fund to cover it, the vast majority of hospitals will put people on a payment plan for the bill.  Usually no interest.  They are just ecstatic people are proactive about wanting to set up a plan.  I suspect a lot of doctors would do this also, if asked.

Always negotiate hospital bills...after THOROUGHLY checking them, because they are usually rife with mistakes.  That are "magically" rarely in your favor.  And, if you do have an e-fund to pay the bill in full with cash, that is serious bargaining power.  Use it to your advantage. 

Many hospitals also have "charity care" programs to help you pay the bills.  In 2009 I fell and broke my arm and it required surgery to add pins.  I had insurance but it was a high deductible plan.  My hospital bill after insurance was around $3,000.... I was pretty much at the lowest of the low in terms of finances at that point, so I applied for the charity care at the hospital and they paid all but $900 of it, and they let me make interest free payments on that $900, and the payments were based on what I told them I could afford.  My brother also got VERY sick due to black mold in his rental apartment.  He was just out of school, new to Oregon, and uninsured and unemployed at the time.  His hospital bill was in the $40,000 range.  A charity care program picked up the entire thing.

Obviously it's not something that should be taken advantage of, and it does take some leg work on your end (I had to submit tax returns, my monthly budget, pay stubs and hardship letter) but pretty much every hospital has a program like this for when times are really hard.  

Thanks for posting!  That is really good to know.  My current insurance is one of those high deductible plans (for family).  They pay zero...not even for prescriptions or dr. visits...until I hit the $8,000 deductible and then they pay 20% until I hit $10K.

If something major happened and I had to pay $10K...even with a discount and on payment plan...that would really be depressing.  On top of being depressing for whatever horrible thing happened to me or H to incur that charge in the first place!

JoanE2012

Our emergency savings has enough in it to cover all expenses for a year if both of us lost our jobs at the same time.  Probably a little overkill, but what we feel comfortable with.

vlagrl29

hoffse said:

JOYFUL2US said:

@hoffse we have 2 kids twins age 2, I am a pediatrician and my husband is a family law attorney. our insurance deductibles are 1000.00 and our vehicles are 5 years old. the 1000.00 is Right at our finger tips in case something happened. We also have other savings that would take at least 3 days to get from other accounts if needed. I think we need to have more than 1000.00 right at our finger tips. You all give great advice on this board!

With your jobs I could see you guys having high incomes but also high liabilities (school debt being the biggie, and also licensing/insurance if you guys are self-employed).  

I think the more you make, the more the cash flow diversion comes into play.  In theory, H and I could divert nearly $5K to an emergency if we really had to (we prepay a lot of our debt).  That plus our $5K bare bones minimum would be plenty to cover just about anything except job loss.  We also utilize credit cards for points, so that builds in a 30-45 day buffer.  

I figure when the A/C dies, we will charge a new unit to build in some buffer time, collect what we can from savings, and divert the difference from our cash flow.  

I talk about our A/C dying so much I should probably start a fund for it.  It was scheduled to die about 6 years ago.

our a/c maintenance guy said we should replace ours and its 10 years old.  I'm so nervous now because that's a huge chunk of change I don't want to take out of our savings.

vlagrl29

short+sassy said:

julieanne912 said:

short+sassy said:

I wanted to throw in about medical bills and e-funds.  Don't get me wrong, having enough in your e-fund to cover your full medical (and other) deductibles is optimal.

But in a "god forbid" situation and there is a major medical crisis with not enough money in the e-fund to cover it, the vast majority of hospitals will put people on a payment plan for the bill.  Usually no interest.  They are just ecstatic people are proactive about wanting to set up a plan.  I suspect a lot of doctors would do this also, if asked.

Always negotiate hospital bills...after THOROUGHLY checking them, because they are usually rife with mistakes.  That are "magically" rarely in your favor.  And, if you do have an e-fund to pay the bill in full with cash, that is serious bargaining power.  Use it to your advantage. 

Many hospitals also have "charity care" programs to help you pay the bills.  In 2009 I fell and broke my arm and it required surgery to add pins.  I had insurance but it was a high deductible plan.  My hospital bill after insurance was around $3,000.... I was pretty much at the lowest of the low in terms of finances at that point, so I applied for the charity care at the hospital and they paid all but $900 of it, and they let me make interest free payments on that $900, and the payments were based on what I told them I could afford.  My brother also got VERY sick due to black mold in his rental apartment.  He was just out of school, new to Oregon, and uninsured and unemployed at the time.  His hospital bill was in the $40,000 range.  A charity care program picked up the entire thing.

Obviously it's not something that should be taken advantage of, and it does take some leg work on your end (I had to submit tax returns, my monthly budget, pay stubs and hardship letter) but pretty much every hospital has a program like this for when times are really hard.  

Thanks for posting!  That is really good to know.  My current insurance is one of those high deductible plans (for family).  They pay zero...not even for prescriptions or dr. visits...until I hit the $8,000 deductible and then they pay 20% until I hit $10K.

If something major happened and I had to pay $10K...even with a discount and on payment plan...that would really be depressing.  On top of being depressing for whatever horrible thing happened to me or H to incur that charge in the first place!

we use to have insurance like that until the ACA came out with subsidized plans.  Now I don't know what to do with such good insurance.

dragonstarjk

When we had to have our A/C worked on this summer (to the tune of $500), the technician discovered that it is leaking freeon.  It is an environmental hazard and is making it really inefficient and breaking down.  So, we will almost definitely have to replace our A/C next year.  I'd like to do the whole HVAC system at the same time since both are pretty old, but it will depend on where we are with paying off our other projects.  This would come out of our home improvement savings fund--which is currently empty due to the front porch build, but we're going to try to build it back up by next summer.

julieanne912

If it helps anybody, we had to put in our own AC in our new house... the builder wanted like 5 grand to put one in.  Our contractor offered financing through Wells Fargo for 0% interest for a year.  The unit ended up costing around $2800.  We did the financing and will just pay it off before the 0 interest is up.  So might be an option if you're not debt averse, and have the money to back it up (we did) in savings if you needed to pay it off early for whatever reason.  

PurpleBookmark

We currently have $1,000.00 in an emergency fund but our goal is to have 6 months of expenses saved.

Our biggest fear is job loss, although we would absolutely both be willing and happy to take any kind of job to replace at least some lost income.  We do not own a home but we do have three kids and two used cars.  The cars particularly are always a concern, we spent over $1,000 on one of the cars last year alone in various repairs.

short+sassy

PurpleBookmark said:

We currently have $1,000.00 in an emergency fund but our goal is to have 6 months of expenses saved.

Our biggest fear is job loss, although we would absolutely both be willing and happy to take any kind of job to replace at least some lost income.  We do not own a home but we do have three kids and two used cars.  The cars particularly are always a concern, we spent over $1,000 on one of the cars last year alone in various repairs.

My MINI Cooper is five years old and I've owned it for 18 months.  But she is a foreign, high performance vehicle and I swear if you even look at her wrong it is a few hundred in repair, lol.

I took her to the mechanic for the first time (other than oil changes) a couple months ago for the most minor of stuff (spark plugs, ignition coil) and just that was $260.

And only Mid Grade or Premium gas and all-synthetic oil changes for this little snowflake.  But I love that car!

vlagrl29

julieanne912 said:

If it helps anybody, we had to put in our own AC in our new house... the builder wanted like 5 grand to put one in.  Our contractor offered financing through Wells Fargo for 0% interest for a year.  The unit ended up costing around $2800.  We did the financing and will just pay it off before the 0 interest is up.  So might be an option if you're not debt averse, and have the money to back it up (we did) in savings if you needed to pay it off early for whatever reason.  

That sounds like a good deal.  We also need the coil replace which they say is an extra $2700

short+sassy

vlagrl29 said:

julieanne912 said:

If it helps anybody, we had to put in our own AC in our new house... the builder wanted like 5 grand to put one in.  Our contractor offered financing through Wells Fargo for 0% interest for a year.  The unit ended up costing around $2800.  We did the financing and will just pay it off before the 0 interest is up.  So might be an option if you're not debt averse, and have the money to back it up (we did) in savings if you needed to pay it off early for whatever reason.  

That sounds like a good deal.  We also need the coil replace which they say is an extra $2700

I'll call both of you and raise you another $2200 .  My house was built over 100 years ago and has never had central ac/heat.  I looked into getting that added after I bought my house.  $7700!!!  Because, in addition to buying/installing the equipment, they would also have to put in all the ductwork.  And that would be just for my side of the house.  If I wanted central ac/heat for the other side of the duplex, that would be another $7700.

Thanks. ButNoThanks.  I'll stick with my window units. 

julieanne912

short+sassy said:

vlagrl29 said:

julieanne912 said:

If it helps anybody, we had to put in our own AC in our new house... the builder wanted like 5 grand to put one in.  Our contractor offered financing through Wells Fargo for 0% interest for a year.  The unit ended up costing around $2800.  We did the financing and will just pay it off before the 0 interest is up.  So might be an option if you're not debt averse, and have the money to back it up (we did) in savings if you needed to pay it off early for whatever reason.  

That sounds like a good deal.  We also need the coil replace which they say is an extra $2700

I'll call both of you and raise you another $2200 .  My house was built over 100 years ago and has never had central ac/heat.  I looked into getting that added after I bought my house.  $7700!!!  Because, in addition to buying/installing the equipment, they would also have to put in all the ductwork.  And that would be just for my side of the house.  If I wanted central ac/heat for the other side of the duplex, that would be another $7700.

Thanks. ButNoThanks.  I'll stick with my window units. 

I always had window units in my apartments in Chicago.  I actually preferred them because you could pick and choose which rooms to cool off.  Like, I don't care much about the living room being super cold, but I loooove my bedroom being freezing when I go to bed.  So I would just blast the bedroom window AC about an hour before bedtime with the door closed.  Then once in bed I'd turn it down (up?) so it would just maintain a comfy temperature.  

We have a single floor house, and the front of the house stays cool, where the back of the house gets really warm.... and that's where our great room and bedroom is.  It faces west and we have lots of big windows to take advantage of the view, but boy is it an energy suck on the hot days since the AC will just continually run to try and cool down the back.  We did buy some roller blackout shades that we keep shut when we're not home, and that helped. 

short+sassy

julieanne912 said:

short+sassy said:

vlagrl29 said:

julieanne912 said:

If it helps anybody, we had to put in our own AC in our new house... the builder wanted like 5 grand to put one in.  Our contractor offered financing through Wells Fargo for 0% interest for a year.  The unit ended up costing around $2800.  We did the financing and will just pay it off before the 0 interest is up.  So might be an option if you're not debt averse, and have the money to back it up (we did) in savings if you needed to pay it off early for whatever reason.  

That sounds like a good deal.  We also need the coil replace which they say is an extra $2700

I'll call both of you and raise you another $2200 .  My house was built over 100 years ago and has never had central ac/heat.  I looked into getting that added after I bought my house.  $7700!!!  Because, in addition to buying/installing the equipment, they would also have to put in all the ductwork.  And that would be just for my side of the house.  If I wanted central ac/heat for the other side of the duplex, that would be another $7700.

Thanks. ButNoThanks.  I'll stick with my window units. 

I always had window units in my apartments in Chicago.  I actually preferred them because you could pick and choose which rooms to cool off.  Like, I don't care much about the living room being super cold, but I loooove my bedroom being freezing when I go to bed.  So I would just blast the bedroom window AC about an hour before bedtime with the door closed.  Then once in bed I'd turn it down (up?) so it would just maintain a comfy temperature.  

We have a single floor house, and the front of the house stays cool, where the back of the house gets really warm.... and that's where our great room and bedroom is.  It faces west and we have lots of big windows to take advantage of the view, but boy is it an energy suck on the hot days since the AC will just continually run to try and cool down the back.  We did buy some roller blackout shades that we keep shut when we're not home, and that helped. 

Totally agree!  The layout of our house happens to be perfect for that "zone" type of heating/cooling.  Our bedroom is on one end of the house and the living room is on the other.  I think my electricity bills would go up a lot if I had central.  And, nowadays, those window units are efficient, quiet, and some of them are also heaters.