For those involved in hiring

Xstatic3333

We've recently had two hiring experiences that have made me scratch my head. I work at a teeny environmental nonprofit.

Position A was for a skilled admin professional for our umbrella organization, 25 hours a week at a salary range of $19-$21/hour, clearly stated in the ad. 15 applied, 5 were interviewed. Research ahead of time confirmed this pay rate was reasonable. All three people the position was offered to said they were interested but would need at least $25/hour, which would have made them the second-highest paid person at the organization immediately. Eventually the board gave in and hired one of the negotiators.

Position B was an entry-level technical position, 20 hours a week at $18-$19 an hour, again, clearly stated in the ad. The hourly rate is reasonable for our area. I expected interest to be low given the part-time nature of the job, but we had over 40 applicants, many overqualified. My supervisor made an offer today after two rounds of interviews, and the applicant said she'd need to think about it because she could "make more on unemployment." She wants to negotiate further with the board. Environmental science is competitive, and it's not unheard of for a job search to take longer than the 6 months unemployment lasts in my state.

What is going on here? I can see negotiating within the posted salary range, but is it the new normal to ask for way, way more than the posted salary range after getting an offer? Or to apply for jobs you can't afford to take? Are we somehow miscommunicating? Anyone else want to vent about this abuse of the unemployment insurance system (which I believe in greatly but hate to see misused?).

Gah.

short+sassy

Let me start off by saying how much I LOVE it when the salary range is posted in a job ad.  It just saves everyone so much time.  I MIGHT apply for a job if I'm pretty close to the range but a bit over AND have more experience/education than what they are looking for, but if I wouldn't take the job unless I'd be making 25% more than the top range, I just wouldn't waste my time applying.

That entry-level tech sounds like a crazy person.  UE does not go on forever.  I believe nowadays it is generally only 6 months.  And I'm pissed that she makes more on UE than she would making $19/hour at 20 hours, lol.  Louisiana has one of the lowest UE rates in the country.  The highest amount it will pay out is $975/month.  But, quite frankly, she did you all a favor.  The kind of person who thinks its great to collect UE instead of taking a job offered is generally going to be a clock-watching and possibly even shady person to hire.

Honestly, though, considering all 3 admin. candidates requested the same amount of money...perhaps your all's research is off and the experience/education required for the job actually does not match up with the people you are trying to hire.

I'll even give you a personal example.  I live in a crap-paying area that has actually seen wages decline over the last 10 years.  Although my current position is not titled "admin professional", it could be characterized that way and I've had previous jobs that were titled "admin. asst." and "executive asst.".  I have over 10 years of progressive experience and a BS.  I make around $25/hour and probably wouldn't consider a position paying $19-$21, unless I'd been unemployed a REALLY long time.  With that said, if just a few years experience would be acceptable, that would be about the right salary range...at least where I live.

LillibetteV

Ugh - I feel you. I once posted an entry-level position (granted with no salary range) and a woman with 20 years experience applied. I wasn't going to bother interviewing her since I knew she'd be out of my budget but she called to follow up. We chatted for a little while and then she told me what she was looking to make  and it was more than my salary (as the head of the dept.) When I said that we were looking to pay half of that she got so mad at me! She said "well...idk how you expect to get someone with my experience at that salary". Um....I didn't expect to get someone with your experience at that salary - that's why I posted for entry-level and didn't actually call you for an interview!

People are crazy is my point. 

JoanE2012

What is the approximate age of these people being interviewed?  I find the younger generation has a much different attitude than those of previous generations.

simplyelise

So weird! Our state only has 13 weeks UE and an unemployment rate under 6% making it more of an applicant's market. Still, the only people I've known who negotiated a higher salary on hiring were niche engineers. I'm 26 and I cannot imagine negotiating after applying for a position with a listed pay range. And I'm with PP, I SO appreciate it when they list the pay ranges in the ad.

As a skilled admin/executive assistant at a non-profit in central Missouri (LCOL), I made about $19.25/hr this year and I'll be making just under $21/hr in 2016 not including benefits . But my benefits are crazy awesome with employer covered health for me and my family, employer funded pension, two weeks paid vacation, and sick leave and personal days too. I've been here 2.5 years and had about 2 years full-time admin experience and 3 years part time admin experience before this job as well as a BS.

For a part time position that could maybe work 3 days a week (?), $19-21 sounds on target to me. I would have expected less applicants for the part time role, but not any negotiators. Especially if it was billed as mostly entry-level.

FTR, DH received $288/week on unemployment for 6 weeks at the beginning of the year. And at only 20 hours a week, you could get another job on top of the tech position.

Just weird. I don't think this is something that should be attributed to age though. I'm so tired of people claiming millennials are entitled. 

als1982

I'd venture to guess that it's because they're part time positions. I'd imagine prime candidates would be seeking something full time with benefits, which might be why you're not getting great options. That's also probably a big part of why they're wanting more money - they're trying to subsist solely on your part time job versus finding a second job or other sources of income to supplement.

Xstatic3333

Thanks for your input, guys. I wasn't as involved with the admin search, but I think you're right that they deserved a higher pay rate. They gave it to a woman in her late-40s, did up the rate, but also gave her additional responsibilities commensurate with her experience. @simplyelise we're an upper-MCOL area, so your example was helpful.

For the tech applicant, I knew part time would be tough. "Are you comfortable with part time" was a huge part of the interview process, and the candidate selected said yes, but who knows what her thought process was. It will be interesting to see what happens.

short+sassy

LillibetteV said:

Ugh - I feel you. I once posted an entry-level position (granted with no salary range) and a woman with 20 years experience applied. I wasn't going to bother interviewing her since I knew she'd be out of my budget but she called to follow up. We chatted for a little while and then she told me what she was looking to make  and it was more than my salary (as the head of the dept.) When I said that we were looking to pay half of that she got so mad at me! She said "well...idk how you expect to get someone with my experience at that salary". Um....I didn't expect to get someone with your experience at that salary - that's why I posted for entry-level and didn't actually call you for an interview!

People are crazy is my point. 

That's hilarious!  I've also seen the other side of the coin in ads.  Where what they want to pay vs. what the requirements are is super out of whack.  Like they want someone with a BS, 5+ years of experience, fluent in Spanish, proficient in some obscure program, etc...for $10-$12/hr.  Ummm...yeah.

I went on an interview back when I was unemployed.  No salary mentioned, but they were looking for an exec. asst. to support the pres./owner of a good sized trade school.  BS preferred, 5+ years experience.  So I sent in my resume and got called in for an interview.  I filled out an application when I got there that had a "salary required" question.  The president herself interviewed me.  We had a pleasant interview/conversation for 30 minutes, primarily from my resume.  Then I saw her look more closely at my application.  She literally said something like, "Oh no!  I was counting myself lucky I had found a dream candidate, but this position pays $24K/year, I can't pay anywhere near the $40K you are looking for."

What I wanted to say:  "Are you kidding me?!?  I haven't made $24K since I graduated from college 15 years ago."

What I actually said:  "Oh!  That is a shame then.  I'm sorry that our salary numbers aren't closer.  But it has been such a pleasure to meet you and I really appreciate your taking out the time today to meet with me."   

vlagrl29

simplyelise said:

So weird! Our state only has 13 weeks UE and an unemployment rate under 6% making it more of an applicant's market. Still, the only people I've known who negotiated a higher salary on hiring were niche engineers. I'm 26 and I cannot imagine negotiating after applying for a position with a listed pay range. And I'm with PP, I SO appreciate it when they list the pay ranges in the ad.

As a skilled admin/executive assistant at a non-profit in central Missouri (LCOL), I made about $19.25/hr this year and I'll be making just under $21/hr in 2016 not including benefits . But my benefits are crazy awesome with employer covered health for me and my family, employer funded pension, two weeks paid vacation, and sick leave and personal days too. I've been here 2.5 years and had about 2 years full-time admin experience and 3 years part time admin experience before this job as well as a BS.

For a part time position that could maybe work 3 days a week (?), $19-21 sounds on target to me. I would have expected less applicants for the part time role, but not any negotiators. Especially if it was billed as mostly entry-level.

FTR, DH received $288/week on unemployment for 6 weeks at the beginning of the year. And at only 20 hours a week, you could get another job on top of the tech position.

Just weird. I don't think this is something that should be attributed to age though. I'm so tired of people claiming millennials are entitled. 

MO is 13 weeks now - that's not enough time IMO.  Back in 2006 it was 6 months (though that was KS)  and my last layoff in MO back in 2009 was 18 months.  I was bringing in $1100 per month which I thought was impressive since I only grossed $1800ish per month at that job.

blondie42107

I've had some interviews and some quiet/casual job offers.  I work nonprofit so salary negotiation is pretty much non-existent.  Budgets are planned in advance based on assumed foundations, state/fed funding, millage funds, private donations, grants, etc.  These nonprofits don't have a bunch of wiggle room for salary discussions.  I was looking for a change and interviewed for a job.  I have 10 years of experience and the exec director was very verbal that it would be wonderful that I would need minimal training because my last job was identical to what they were interviewing for.  It was $5/hr less than the position I just left and the job offer I recently accepted pays $5 more than my last job but the benefits are much better.  This is all in a similar location so it's not a COLA issue.  The lowest paying job offer, the exec stated they were in the starting process of salary reviews because they knew they needed to adjust.  

On a side note, I love networking and staying in touch with people in my field.  I got a casual "we are going to be positing an opening..." call today from someone I previously worked with who has now been promoted to a director (under the exec director).  She'll be doing the interviewing/hiring and wants me.  

As for the comment about making more on unemployement.  That's a ridiculous comment to make and gives me the impression that person doesn't really want the job.

hoffse

Well I admit I took an opportunity to leverage my LLM tuition reimbursement out of my current employer.  It's not part of my salary, but it's a benefit worth about $30K tax-free over two years, and it was not something just offered to me.

And since I've been able to use a CC to pay my tuition with no fees, I'm going to end up making money on it.

When my old firm was sinking the partner that approached me about moving seemed really nervous to tell me.  I had this moment of clarity where I realized we were all a package deal, and if one person didn't agree to go (there were 17 of us) it could kill the deal for everybody.  It was a really odd moment where I realized I actually had some serious leverage, even though I was a junior associate.  So I told him I would move firms if he was willing to help me get my LLM funded.  It was something I had wanted to do at the old place, but it just got shut down for budget reasons (obviously - the entire firm sank).  He seemed relieved that this was all I was asking for, and true to his word he went through with it and helped me navigate the exec committee at the new place.

On the flip side though, once I have that degree my firm will be able to bill me out at a higher rate than they currently do for exactly the same kind of work I've been doing for the last few years.  $30K is a lot of money, but they will probably make it up within the first year after I graduate, and it's a tiny fraction of what it costs them to employ an additional associate who already has that degree.  So it was a really good deal for everybody.

But all of that is to say that yes, I've asked for something that wasn't being offered when presented with a new job opportunity.  

Xstatic3333

@hoffse I think asking for what you did makes a lot more sense in the law world than in the nonprofit world. For us it's like @blondie42107 mentioned, there just really isn't a whole lot more money to find.

Environmental science is such a weird bubble. There are far more people getting this degree than there are jobs to go around. I was lucky/set myself up to be lucky and found a job quickly after grad school, but I've had friends with Masters degrees be offered $25,000 with a straight face. It's almost akin to something like theatre or music where many people with the degree move on to other fields. Most of us have a solid stats background, so many end up in the financial world. Others work in straight biology labs.

I negotiated a bit to get my current raise, but after being there a couple of years and bringing in two large grants. I'm definitely not against negotiation, but I think you need to be within the ballpark of what your employer can offer.

als1982

Xstatic3333 said:

@hoffse I think asking for what you did makes a lot more sense in the law world than in the nonprofit world. For us it's like @blondie42107 mentioned, there just really isn't a whole lot more money to find.

Environmental science is such a weird bubble. There are far more people getting this degree than there are jobs to go around. I was lucky/set myself up to be lucky and found a job quickly after grad school, but I've had friends with Masters degrees be offered $25,000 with a straight face. It's almost akin to something like theatre or music where many people with the degree move on to other fields. Most of us have a solid stats background, so many end up in the financial world. Others work in straight biology labs.

I negotiated a bit to get my current raise, but after being there a couple of years and bringing in two large grants. I'm definitely not against negotiation, but I think you need to be within the ballpark of what your employer can offer.

Maybe in your specific field, but I don't think it's fair to make a sweeping generalization about nonprofits in general. I'm a fundraiser and would have no hesitation about negotiating salary in the future (or in the case of promotion at my current workplace). If anything, I'd almost say it's encouraged in my organization to shoot high upon hiring or promotion since annual raises tend to be capped at meager amounts. Frankly, it's probably more of a big organization versus small organization or manual labor versus an educated workforce that would dictate whether salary negotiation is a part of the company culture than nonprofit versus for profit.

Xstatic3333

als1982 said:

Xstatic3333 said:

@hoffse I think asking for what you did makes a lot more sense in the law world than in the nonprofit world. For us it's like @blondie42107 mentioned, there just really isn't a whole lot more money to find.

Environmental science is such a weird bubble. There are far more people getting this degree than there are jobs to go around. I was lucky/set myself up to be lucky and found a job quickly after grad school, but I've had friends with Masters degrees be offered $25,000 with a straight face. It's almost akin to something like theatre or music where many people with the degree move on to other fields. Most of us have a solid stats background, so many end up in the financial world. Others work in straight biology labs.

I negotiated a bit to get my current raise, but after being there a couple of years and bringing in two large grants. I'm definitely not against negotiation, but I think you need to be within the ballpark of what your employer can offer.

Maybe in your specific field, but I don't think it's fair to make a sweeping generalization about nonprofits in general. I'm a fundraiser and would have no hesitation about negotiating salary in the future (or in the case of promotion at my current workplace). If anything, I'd almost say it's encouraged in my organization to shoot high upon hiring or promotion since annual raises tend to be capped at meager amounts. Frankly, it's probably more of a big organization versus small organization or manual labor versus an educated workforce that would dictate whether salary negotiation is a part of the company culture than nonprofit versus for profit.

Hmmm, that's really good to be aware of if I ever move on to a larger organization!

ETA Most of my nonprofit friends are also at small workplaces (though larger than mine) so it very well could be different within my field too. There's only one very large group operating in my state, The Nature Conservancy, and I haven't seen them post anything in a while.

blondie42107

Because nonprofits are very popular in my field, I know what's in my area. My last employer had approx 130 employees. Because some funds come from millage funds, there's a strong sense of using money in a way that pleases the community. Appearance is a big concern. There's also the board that needs to be kept happy. In the almost 9 years I was there, the only benefit that increased was salary and it was minimal. All other benefits kept changing for the worse.

Big, nonprofits with flexible salary negotiations and benefits are few to non-existent. The majority of nonprofits in my area don't make money like the big ones. If the state and federal say you get X per year, millage funds provide X and foundations give X, there's no extra money unless you take from those being served, which would never happen.

julieanne912

short+sassy said:

LillibetteV said:

Ugh - I feel you. I once posted an entry-level position (granted with no salary range) and a woman with 20 years experience applied. I wasn't going to bother interviewing her since I knew she'd be out of my budget but she called to follow up. We chatted for a little while and then she told me what she was looking to make  and it was more than my salary (as the head of the dept.) When I said that we were looking to pay half of that she got so mad at me! She said "well...idk how you expect to get someone with my experience at that salary". Um....I didn't expect to get someone with your experience at that salary - that's why I posted for entry-level and didn't actually call you for an interview!

People are crazy is my point. 

That's hilarious!  I've also seen the other side of the coin in ads.  Where what they want to pay vs. what the requirements are is super out of whack.  Like they want someone with a BS, 5+ years of experience, fluent in Spanish, proficient in some obscure program, etc...for $10-$12/hr.  Ummm...yeah.

I went on an interview back when I was unemployed.  No salary mentioned, but they were looking for an exec. asst. to support the pres./owner of a good sized trade school.  BS preferred, 5+ years experience.  So I sent in my resume and got called in for an interview.  I filled out an application when I got there that had a "salary required" question.  The president herself interviewed me.  We had a pleasant interview/conversation for 30 minutes, primarily from my resume.  Then I saw her look more closely at my application.  She literally said something like, "Oh no!  I was counting myself lucky I had found a dream candidate, but this position pays $24K/year, I can't pay anywhere near the $40K you are looking for."

What I wanted to say:  "Are you kidding me?!?  I haven't made $24K since I graduated from college 15 years ago."

What I actually said:  "Oh!  That is a shame then.  I'm sorry that our salary numbers aren't closer.  But it has been such a pleasure to meet you and I really appreciate your taking out the time today to meet with me."   

I've had this problem here too... last time when looking for a job I encountered a lot of ads wanting someone with tons of experience (which I have) but only wanting to pay like $15/hour with no benefits.  

I landed at my current job because I knew a few people at the company, including a higher up, and asked for just under $22/hour and was very surprised when they agreed to it.  Crazy since the COL here is so high... I'm not sure how I'd even live here if H didn't make good money.  Oh yeah, and the VP who originally interviewed me, wanted to hire me on as a temp to hire. Thankfully, one of my contacts, who is the other VP at this company and knows me, told her no, and that I needed to be hired on as a permanent employee.