XP: Dog Owners

mspaulak01

I apologize if you also visit the Knot WI board - I'm reposting this from there.

Can anyone recommend a good training class for dogs in the Appleton/Green Bay area? (We've taken 3 classes at PetSmart, but that was a year ago; I feel we need more structured, stricter classes for our GSD mix, but can't seem to find anything other than Golrusk, which doesn't appear much more structered.)

Experiences? Recommendations? TIA

FoxinFiji

I not familiar with the area but as a regular Pet Nestie I have some suggestions.  Google NILIF (nothing in life is free) and practice as little or as much of it that you think you need to.  I would start out strict and relax the rules from there.  We practice some of the basic NILIF rules everyday to reinforce that we are the alphas.  Classes are great but if you don't have any decent ones in your area I'd turn to books and DVDs (many of which you can get through the library).  Patricia McConnell is a popular trainer who lives right here in WI.  She has a lot of great books and DVDs out about positive reinforcement, separation anxiety, and dog aggression.  Other good authors are Pat Miller, Jean Donaldson, Ian Dunbar, Betty Fisher, and Karen Pryor.  The other option is to hire a behaviorist if the problem is severe enough.

What kind of problems are you having exactly?  If you get more specific I might have more suggestions.

ETA: Here's a NILIF link I have saved:

http://k9deb.com/nilif.htm

 

mspaulak01

We do actually practice a fair amount of NILIF and she's usually a good dog.  Her walking has gotten out of hand (I suspect several factors weighed in on that: reduced amount & frequency of walks over the winter, MH had gotten fairly lax about exerting dominance over her and became her playmate, and she now has filled out so when she pulls, she nearly can pull you over unless you're steadied against it.)  We used to use the Gentle Leader Easy Walk harness which worked fairly well to curb her pulling (in combination with other loose-leashing training), but we can't use harnesses on her anymore (her dog pits get rubbed raw and sore!)

She pulls and pulls HARD while she's on walks.  We used to be able to keep her in check with the harness, but now she can't wear that AND she's 15-20 pounds heavier than she used to be.  She also was acting out when she saw bicyclists (she doesn't like them) and other dogs.  She wasn't showing aggression (hopping at them, which other owners could view as trying to lunge; barking/growling which can be intimidating since she sounds full Shepherd.)

I did a lot of research yesterday online and we are trying out a pinch collar on her.  We took her around the block last night and she was like a completely different dog.  She listened when we called her back (to walk within the range we allow her in front or behind us) and she stopped pulling within the first 15 feet.  (She never whimpered or whined, which I was concerned about and only shot us one dirty look the first time the collar tightened slightly.  Then she went on prancing about her merry way.)

We'll see - we're not looking to the pinch collar as an end all answer, but it might be a useful tool in moderation.  She listened incredibly better - she sat when we had to stop and said sit, she didn't pull, and she even managed to walk past a squirrel without yanking off MH's arm!  We'll see how it works in passing other dogs - that will be one of the true tests because that's when she's her strongest.

Thanks for the suggestions - we're looking into a book recommended by a friend who also has a Shepherd, but I'll make note of the authors you mentioned as well.  (There is one place we'll consider for classes, but we won't make this next session of classes, so we'll have to wait until June.)

FoxinFiji

Well good!  It sounds like you know what you're doing. 

We're working on Sophie's leash walking skills too so I feel your pain.  She was never walked on a leash with her previous owner and though she doesn't pull near as much as she did when we got her it's still something we need to work on.  Our arms were so soar each time we walked her at first!

Prong collars are OK if they are used properly.  Some of the pet board girls use them to help control their really big dogs.  But some other things you might want to try is the Gentle Leader head collar, martingale collars, and heeling.  The head collar will make the dog turn it's head every time they pull and works better than the harness does.  We have the gentle lead harness right now and it only sort of helps the problem.  The downside to the head collar is they may always have to wear it when walking.  Martingale collars are good for general training but probably won't help you much with walking.  Heeling will probably help you the most though.  When we first got Sophie we made her walk next to us or behind us when we walked to show our dominance.  The leader of the pack leads so you shouldn't let your dog walk in front of you if they have dominance issues.  Over time we've let her walk ahead of us but she still knows her place.  But honestly this hasn't helped with the pulling because when she was next to us she couldn't pull as much as she is when she's in front of us. 

Right now we're beginning to work on her pulling by turning around and walking the other direction every time she pulls.  At first you don't get very far and you might not even make it out of the driveway but dogs seem to pick it up pretty fast.  Some people stop and wait a minute instead every time the dog pulls but the turning around seems to be working better for us.  The idea is that your dog typically pulls because they want to see something or go in a certain direction and by going the opposite direction they don't get to go where they wanted to.  If this doesn't work we'll probably go back to making her walk next to or behind us. 

The other thing we're working on that might help you is the "watch me" command.  It works great around bicyclist, other dogs, or any other distraction they may not like.  For watch me you get your dog's attention by holding a treat next to your eyes and getting them to pay attention to you and not the thing they want to bark at.  If they are really fixated on the distraction you might have to put the treat in front of their nose and lure them up to your eyes.  Sophie isn't a big fan of bicyclist either and we live on a country road this is a bike path so that can be a problem!  She usually doesn't have a problem with bikers that ride up behind us but it's the ones going the other direction that she has time to notice and tense up about that are a problem.  I just tried the "watch me" command with her last night with the bikers and it worked great!  I only made her stare at me for 30 seconds for each piece right now (sometimes a few in a row until the biker had past) but in the future we can make that longer.  And along with "watch me" I made her sit since it's hard for dogs to be tensed up in the sitting position.  Victoria Stilwell uses the "watch me" command a lot on her It's Me Or The Dog show actually.  If you're interested in see her use it I'm sure there are some clips online somewhere.  Patricia McConnell also uses "watch me" in her Feisty Fido book that I just started reading.

I sympathize with you on the scary sounding dog part.  Sophie has a very mean sounding bark but she's not mean at all.  She'd be more likely to lick to you to death than to bite you!  It doesn't help that she's all muscle and possibly part pit bull.  Even if she only barks once or twice and settles down people automatically assume that she's one of those "dangerous pit bulls."  If a golden did that they would assume she's excited but because she's got the head of a pit bull she's dangerous.  That's why I always try to keep her on her best behavior and try to not let her get away with anything.

FoxinFiji

One more thing. Since most of this training involves treats we have a tiny over the shoulder bag DH & I wear when walking Sophie.  It has dry treats, a small squeaker ball, pick-up bags, keys, and a water bottle with the flip down open part so a dog can drink out of it.  Then we just throw in a ziploc baggy of fresh treats we keep cut up in the fridge (typically cheese, hot dogs, or left overs) and walk her.  But if we forget that or don't have many already cut up in the fridge we always have the dry biscuits as back up.  The squeaker works really well as a last resort distraction too.

I had to find something that didn't look like a man purse to convince DH to wear it and I'm not a fan of those fanny pack looking things they sell at pet stores.  I got this guy on sale at REI. 

LOL, sorry I wrote so much!  HTH!

mspaulak01

LOL - it's one of those situations where everything is difficult to explain but easier to show.

That's the frustrating part - Xena used to heel.  (At this time last year, she was heeling off leash while we JOGGED past other dogs, toys, treats, etc.)  When we walk her outside, though, we rarely made her heel more than necessary on our walks (usually when a car or another dog was approaching, or there was a bicyclist or bus in the immediate area because she freaks out about both.)  The worst part is she wouldn't listen to the command since we didn't need it for most of the winter (walks weren't as frequent since the streets were dangerous and no sidewalks; when we did walk her, no one else was out so we didn't need her to heel! LOL)  And she never was allowed to go more than 2 feet or so ahead of us, even when loose-leash walking but that's part of the problem we were having.  Since she's so strong, she'd pull as far out ahead as she could (as far as her 4' leash would accomodate) and we'd tug her with the command "back".  Have you tried tugging a 70+ pound block of muscle with its energy focused the opposite way? LOL It's like pulling on a brick wall.

I actually think we may need to remove a 2nd link in the prong collar.  It fits her, but is loose enough that it slips to one side while we're walking her (I kept stopping her to correct it's placement and make sure it sat high enough.)  I walked her by myself last night and she was a flipping angel - the first half of the walk, I didn't even need to correct her.  (We left the house and she pranced alongside me - usually that's the toughest time for us: the first block or two from the house because it's her 'hood.   She knows the dogs, she knows the houses, she knows where the squirrels hide.  But she didn't pull and walked where she knew she was supposed to.)

Also, we encountered another dog last night on the 2nd half of our walk.  (I hate when people walk on the wrong side of the road.)  It was a little mop of a dog (in serious need of a haircut) with a big attitude.  Xena tried to hop at it once and bark, but she realized she was pulling against the collar (I didn't correct her - she strained against it) and then settled back in with a hoppy step until we walked right past it.  I was so proud of her (especially when the other dog owner could barely control her tiny little 10 pound dog!)

I had to google what a martingale collar is, and it appears like a choker collar, which I won't use.  I did some research before we got the prong collar and even the head collar can cause neck damage in dogs that are stubborn or with not-strong-enough necks because it does whip their heads around.  When we went to buy the prong collar, we had it and a head collar and I asked the store clerks what they suggested.  Once they told me there is a chance of some fur loss where the strap goes across their snoot, I was out. LOL  Xena has been rubbed raw by both her Gentle Leader Easy Walk harness and a Sporn halter harness (always in her "paw pits") so I knew there was a good chance that if it was a possibility, we'd run across it since we WOULD use it every walk.  We wanted whatever worked best without potential for harm (she's pretty clumsy and prone to accidents.)  The prong collar - when fitted and used as a training tool - seemed our best option and so far, so good.  She even acts differently AFTER we take the collar off, which is a good sign.

(Did I tell you I even took the collar and put it on myself? LOL I wrapped it around my arm and pulled as hard as I could until it was tight and DIGGING INTO my skin.  It wasn't comfortable, but it didn't hurt.  That was a selling point for me.  The ones I'd seen previously were just filed down and that was unacceptable to me because they still had some edges.  The one we got has completely rounded ends on it, so that made me feel somewhat better.)

That's pretty much it, I think - we need help keeping our dog in check when she decides to be a nightmare. LOL  She'll come and sit pretty for us to put it on, and then she's off to prance through the neighborhood.  Like I said, so far so good, but we'll see and evaluate going forward to make sure it remains a useful tool, not a crutch.