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DharmaChick
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S/O: Article: Why Vegetarians are Eating Meat - XP
in Green Living
This discussion is going on in the What's Cooking thread:
http://community.thenest.com/cs/ks/forums/thread/33880269.aspx
They are discussing this article:
http://www.foodandwine.com/articles/why-vegetarians-are-eating-meat
I figured that many of us on the GL board would also be interested in this topic.
Re: S/O: Article: Why Vegetarians are Eating Meat - XP
I agree with the article, but going from vegetarianism to ethically raised meats only works if you only eat those ethically raised meats. I gurantee the "changed vegetarians" eat factory-farmed meat at restaurants, friend's houses, and probably fast food too. That's the slippery slope when leaving vegetarianism IMHO. So to avoid that slope, DH and I don't eat meat at all. Yes we could decide only to eat meat from the Farmer's Market raised humanely, but once that gets out to our friends and family we're back to eating factory-farmed burgers at friend's houses b/c we don't want to be rude. Or deciding "yeah I'll have a steak at Ruby Tuesday's" because they don't have any good vegetarian options (which is true). And you're right back to where you started. Unfortunately the DC area doesn't have the humanely/environmentally raised meat and seafood scene that, say, Seattle has for Alisha_A that allows her to eat good meat and seafood outside her home (so jealous...)
I agree that some vegetarian products, like fake meat, are highly processed. But no animal suffered in a factory farm to make them. Being a "soy ice cream and Gardenburger" vegetarian is missing the whole point IMHO. DH and I eat mostly whole foods, especially a lot of beans. We have a tofu meal once a week, and a meat subsitute meal (like veggie burgers) one a week.
I do miss supporting our local grass-fed beef farmer, but judging from his looong line at the Farmer's Market he seems to be doing okay. I do buy honey from him still. I talk to him every week and he understands why we stopped buying from him.
I really don't understand that article. I've been a vegetarian for 15 years, and I think I can honestly say that I'll never eat meat, no matter how humanely it is raised. I think meat is disgusting, and I really don't understand how people can start eating it again after being veggie for so long. Meat stopped looking and smelling like food to me probably a decade ago- I can't even eat the fake meat products available because they don't look like food anymore, to me. I don't know. I guess it just seems like such a pathetic argument- Hey vegetarians, you can eat meat now because it's ethically raised! Um, no, I really can't.
Also, only half of my concern is about how animals are raised, or the environment. The other half is more about the ethics of killing an animal for food I don't really need. I can't justify it. To be honest, that is the only reason I turned vegetarian in the first place- I d?dn't know about the environmental effects or abusive practices when I converted.
i think it is important to remember that meat is still a status symbol in most cultures. there are communities and families, in the US and abroad, that use their natural, organic farms to sustain their livelihoods and earn the spending power to give back to their communities. the only reason most natural, family farms made the switch to industrialization was due to the corporate stronghold on our food production and markets.
the push for sustainability is not only about environmental sustainability, animal welfare and animal rights, but it is also about community sustainability and human well being. in my opinion, any shift away from industrialized meat and agribusiness is a step in the right direction because it begins to put the power back into the peoples hands.
i do not think the whole world going vegetarian or vegan is a viable option, and whereas it may solve certain environmental problems that the world is currently facing, i believe that it will create a slew of new problems.
Please define agribusiness and family farm.
I am afraid you hold an idealistic concept of these things. Even Family farmers need to make a living.
agribusiness meaning corporate farming.
family farm meaning a farm that is not run by a major corporation.
family farms have the power to make more money if corporations are not undermining them incorporating unethical and unfair business practices in traditional farming.
look how many farms have had to sell their business because monsanto seeds have infiltrated their crops, or because the family farm cows aren't pumped full of antibiotics giving them the economic edge of mass milk production.
there is an unfair weight in the market caused by unethical farming practices by corporations which make it impossible to earn a living with a family/natural farm. the push for sustainable and ethical meat and dairy is a chance to support these "family" farmers or non corporate farms as a form of activism against multinational corporations.
it is the same type of consumer activism that is executed when a person purchases fair trade or shade grown coffee instead of starbucks or when they purchase cruelty free beauty products made by women's cooperatives in south africa or from an american girl on etsy. these goods are able to have a market in the US and other developed nations because there are consumers who wish to not support multinational corporations that wreak havoc on the environments where their goods are produced and exploit the workers. and as first world consumers, i think it is our duty to take a stand and say we will not support the exploitation of people and animals in order to save a few cents, we are not OK being a wal mart nation.
and obviously that is idealistic and some people are OK with that, but a little change to go a long way, and if we begin to make changes to our consumer habits now, maybe our children will live in a world where our every day products aren't addled with chemicals, and people through out the world can have a more lucrative, less disparaged life and livelihood.
That is nice idea. None of you 'pro family farm' people are bothering to look beyond our hundred miles. My humane beef is going to 'evil packing houses' to earn top dollar in several exclusive brand names. The unfairness is you 'caring' people all live close to cities not agriculture. And are not interested in learing how actual families earn a living through agriculture.
I am sure you will all have stories about your 'family farm'. Good for you. Be sure to tell it to the rest of those who had to sell out because they could not impliment your ideals, therefore not be able to sell you food.
Can you explain your face?
According to other definitions I have been given, proximity to a city is key to selling your humane product. I have great humame beef, however there is not much market in my 100 miles. You in AZ certainly are not. How can you support my healthy humane operation and maintain your local standing?
Explain to my why you bolded my statements? How can I make them more understandable for you? Let me know how I can help you understand what I am trying to say.
now my face is
.
Really, you are unable to say anything besides a face? Can you explain anything? Really, I am trying. I guess your 'face' is too.
Well, I'll start. You're assuming a lot, for one- like, why would you presume to know where I live? I happen to live in the middle of farm land, run by successful family farms. You come across as argumentative and ignorant. That's why she uses the faces- she probably doesn't think she can reason with you. You seem to like to draw your own conclusions. That was my feeling, anyway.
And then there's this gem-
You realize you bolded those statements in your original post, right? When she quoted you your own formatting went into the quote. She didn't bold your statements at all.
Bellee, I think people are making faces at you because you're being argumentative. What are you so upset about? We live in cities because that's where the jobs are. The people on this board spend a lot of time and money to learn how actual families earn a living through agriculture. The majority of us shop at farmer's markets, are part of a CSA, or buy whole pigs or halves of cows from humane farmers to feed our families. How is living where the jobs are and supporting people making a living through agriculture "unfair" ?
We're pro family farm because we want our food money to go back into our local community (so yes, within 100 miles) to support small farmers where the food is grown by real people. I take a lot of time and effort to learn how actual families earn a living through agriculture. Let's take the grass fed humane beef producer at my local Farmer's Market, his name is Chris. Chris's farm is about 20 minutes from my house, his family has been farming the same land for 50 years. He takes his cows to a packing facility in southern PA, about 2 hours away. He then sells it at the market. USDA laws won't allow him to slaughter or pack the meat himself, I understand that. So I don't think packing houses are evil.
What is evil in my mind are factory farms. We don't want to support a major corporation whose has hundreds or thousands of animals confined in a very small area, pumped full of hormones and antibiotics because their corn feed makes them sick, and then slaughtered to the tune of several thousand animals an hour. That's a factory farm and I don't give them a cent of my hard earned money. I choose to support the local family farm who cares for their land and their animals. I know that farmer, I look him in the eye every Saturday morning.
What ideals do you speak of that you weren't able to keep? I see lots of vendors at my farmer's market who sell local, humanely treated meat. Yes, we are close to a major city so there is a demand for it. However there are humane farmers, like Polyface Farms in Swoope VA, who drive 3 hours each way to come to the city markets in Washington, D.C. The labels of "exclusive brand names" lie, like "free range chicken" has no legal meaning. So we chose to buy from farmers we can look in the eye and ask how they raise their animals. I'm a vegetarian and I go to this level for the person I buy eggs from.
Your beef is being shipped all over the country to be sold in "exclusive brand names." We and other green/environmental/animal welfare people are very glad you're raising cows humanely, we really are. However, we're not comfortable with the amount of gas it took to get your humane beef to our grocery store. So we try to buy our meat and produce differently, from the person who actually grew it. I'm sorry you had to "sell out" but I'm going to support the family farms who didn't so they don't have to.
my main point was consumer control has the ability to change corproate practice and market supply. if there is a big enough demand for local meat and dairy, supermarkets will have to seek those out or risk losing business. then hopefully family farms won't have to sell out. then the people who want to continue their CSAs and farmer's markets can, but then the other people who do not have access/time/money for those luxuries still have the option of fresh, healthy, humanely raised meat and dairy.
this is obviously a few years away, but did we ever think wal mart would be carrying organics? or whole foods would have a local farmers section?
Ditto.
And another
from me.
Whats with all the assumptions? I know local cattle ranchers personally, I know the farmer's from whom I buy produce, my eggs and dairy come from small local farms, and while I live near a city, in the suburbs of a major metropolitan area, I also live by vast amounts of farms, from very local (within 10 minutes) to regional.
You seem to be projecting your issues and frustrations on everyone else. I'm sorry you are frustrated with your situation, but rather than be so difficult, why not present your situation and ask for suggestions? Who knows, maybe someone has a good idea.
I don't think its fair to say that is what happens to all people who start eating some meat after being vegetarian. I really don't eat much meat at all outside of my home anymore, or actually, inside my home. My friends know my preferences and I always bring a big salad to parties and such, and make sure its heavy enough for a meal. Its also easy to eat wild salmon or dungeness,. Those definitely are more available and cheaper where I live than you though!
I think its okay to say you don't eat meat, even if you occassionally do when its humanely-raised, but for me, I just say I don't eat a lot of meat, and say no thank you.
Who's expecting decent veg options at Ruby Tuesday!? Good friends don't let friends eat at bad restaurants!!
I am such a food snob. I actually don't eat out much at all, but I have no qualms about saying I'm not eating somewhere. I actually wouldn't go out with a guy because he'd lived here his whole life, hadn't tried Indian food, didn't like Thai food, and thought the Cheesecake Factory was a good compromise for our food differences.
I am all for making food more cruelty free. However, I don't think any meat can really be considered such since slaughter is itself cruel no matter how the animal was raised. It's a step in the right direction though.
I respect your choices and opinions totally. I know that in the current time and places we all live in, we really don't need to eat beef, pork, chickens, fish, etc. And this is a totally crazy tangent... and I'm not putting words in anyone's mouth, just asking an unrelated question!
But I have to ask, particularly vegetarians who don't eat animals because it's killing another living thing-- do you think that meat-eating has always been "cruelty"? Native Americans could've lived a vegetarian diet, but were likely able to thrive better due to eating game. Does the fact that they asked the animal spirits for forgiveness and thanked them for their sacrifice make it any less cruel?!
ETA: I'm not sure what you mean about them being able to 'thrive' better on meat, though. I could understand this if there was not appropriate/sufficient vegetation possible, but if there was, why would meat be 'better'?
We'll have to agree to disagree on this one. If I told anyone, family and friends included, that we were eating any meat at all, even just local seafood, they would completely stop offering us vegetarian options and get offended if we brought our own food. Plus factory farmed meat would start showing up in things that used to be okay for us, like pasta salad or on top of regular salad. They think we're NUTS for not eating meat every day.
UGH my Dad loooves Ruby Tuesday, I don't know why!!! Whenever I come their house, which is often, Dad always wants to eat there, especially for brunch after church. It's so terrible and expensive. The only way I get to eat where I want, which is the tiny sandwich shop above the Health Food store, is if I say "I'm taking you all out for lunch!"
I would totally not date a guy who didn't like ethnic cuisine. When DH asked me out for the first time and suggested Thai, I was like "Ding ding ding we have a winnnaaahhh!"
Yup, we do have different social situations. In my crowd, anyone who has any food issues is seen as being difficult, picky, and weird. I've been labeled a food snob and "too good to eat with us" many times, even by my own family. Even before we went vegetarian I would get a massive
every time I brought my own food, or ingredients to contribute to a meal (like garlic for example. I PPH my farmer's garlic). When I bring food that DH and I eat all.the.time, conversations go like this:
Mom/Dad/Friend: "What's this smooshy/green/brown stuff"?
Me: "Quinoa/salad/brown rice."
M/D/F: "Never heard of it, I'm not eating that. What's wrong with this steak huh? HUH?"
The problem with the Ruby Tuesday dinners is that I'm already at their house when my Dad decides that's where we're going to go. For example I went to church with them, and instead of going to their house or the adorable corner diner for brunch, Dad wants to go to Ruby Tuesdays. I've tried explaining to him that I'm not a big fan of chains and would like to go somewhere else, it makes no difference. He overrules me, and my choices are to deal with it since I went to their house to spend time with them, or make a scene by leaving. So I go with the former. And their salads all have meat on top of them, and somehow mine always magically gets left on when it comes to the table.
Our friends also don't generally like vegetables amazingly enough. DH's BFF and her boyfriend don't eat vegetables. They're strictly steak & potatoes people. When we have them over I usually make a very meat heavy meal like burgers and fries. When they have us over they very sweetly make cheese pizza for us, and a pizza loaded with meat toppings for them. Lots of comments of "so what do you eat??" also.
Everyone in my group loves veggies! Even the guys who don't normally love salads, love my salads. One thing my friend does is always put salad and fruit out before the main meal at parties, so it gets eaten. And we always have really good fruity desserts, like homemade carmel bananas and fruit cobbler.
Wait, you make burgers for guests?? Wow, I would never think to serve something I wouldn't normally eat at my own house!! Why not make stuff that shows off how good eating vegetarian can be? My grandparents were really harsh on me when I became a vegetarian as a child, so badly sometimes they'd make me cry (hey, I was a kid!), so now and then we'd have them over and I'd make really good veggie stuff.
Does it have to be a big deal if you leave your parents? I would just be like 'oh hey no big deal but I don't feel like it, so we're gonna head out' or just go and not eat anything. That's too bad the cute place nearby sounds better!
People are so weird. I remember once in high school I was eating a veggie sandwich, and this girl said "eww gross". Huh?? Its the same thing as your sandwich, except without the dead animal. Not having dead animal is gross??