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McCain & "intellectual incurious"
I've seen that term used to demean McCain multiple times on this board and elsewhre. Frankly, I find it an intellectually vacant (pun intended) categorization and downright snobbish.
I'm a little exhausted with the left's mocking of conservatives as simple-minded, unable to see the nuance, ill-informed, etc. I would find it offensive as well except that it's so patently false I can't muster enough energy to be angry, so I'm left with only fatigue.
I read it below as the reason why McCain doesn't go online. He's not "intellectually curious" enough to care about such things. Suddenly I wondered if I was back in 2000 and 2004 where the exact same criticism was leveled at Bush. Or maybe 1980 and 1984 when terms like it were thrown at Reagan (until "senile" became more fashionable). Or even 1988 when Quayle was the Idiot Conservative de Jour.
I don't have to justify McCain's intelligence to anyone b/c it's obvious he's a capable, intelligent person. But since his use of email and the internet was labeled a "line" in this year's election I'm going to respond.
From Slate in 2000 entitled "McCain's Web Explosion"
http://www.slate.com/id/74812/
"Six months ago, no one would have pegged McCain as the most cybersavvy of this year's crop of candidates. At 63, he is the oldest of the bunch and because of his war injuries, he is limited in his ability to wield a keyboard. But McCain's job as chairman of the Senate commerce committee forced him to learn about the Internet early on, and young Web entrepreneurs such as Jerry Yang and Jeff Bezos fascinate him."
It goes on and on. It's a wonder how someone described as "cybersavvy" could become "intellectually incurious" about the internet in a span of 8 years. Perhaps it's senilty... I also wonder how his inability to use a keyboard suddenly became a political tactic in 2008 when the Boston Globe and Salon reported it 8 1/2 years ago. Perhaps that is due to "intellectual incuriosity" of his detractors.
Re: McCain & "intellectual incurious"
I won't say I've never heard this characterization not necessarily of McCain but of certain conservatives, but I think it is the flip side of the ugly coin in which liberals are denigrated as elitist, out of touch "thinking types." Neither characterization is true but there's plenty of spin on both sides of the aisle.
I don't know if it's so much liberal strategy as Republican strategy turned on itself...
Bush, Reagan, even McCain - - they seem like, in their advertising and presentation, they don't want the population to see them as "smart" - they even seem like they see "smart" as a negative.
They may very well be smarter than the average bear, but they also want people to think that they're fun to have a beer with, good ole' boys... they CHOOSE that persona, so when it comes back and bites them in the @ss, is it fair to call it "liberal strategy"?
I am the 99%.
I absolutely see that Bush has a folksy persona, and that while some find it endearing, many have used it against him to portray him as ignorant. I don't see how you can put Reagan and McCain in that same category. Wasn't Reagan referred to as "the great communicator"?
I've never used a blackberry or iphone in my life and I have no desire to. Am I intellectually incurious as well? Or is it possible that intellectual people don't concern themselves with technology they don't need? (p.s. McCain uses a Blackberry)
I appreciate your distinction between the average voter and the informed elite. I don't think most people care about politics like we do on this board (this board, not E08). Feel free to call the uninformed what they are - uninformed. I'm just sick of people calling the informed conservatives intellectually incurious.
Fwiw, I don't believe that his lack of interest in a computer causes him to be intellectually incurious. I honestly don't think it will impact his ability to be president as I feel most of the information that is provided is through face-to-face briefings. I do find it interesting that he graduated at almost the bottom of his class, although I can mitigate that with practical experience that he has gained through his years in the Senate. As time goes on I feel that experience becomes more important than just education.
With that said, in our everyday life, companies look at both when trying to determine the right fit for employment. The job as pres is no different. I think when evaluating a president all of their actions and choices come into play, no matter how far back it took place. This applies to both candidates.
I am not sure about the inclusion of Bush in this discussion. Do you honestly feel that he is very intelligent?
While I can see the left has been part of the labeling of the "intellectually incurious" for republicans, I also feel that some republicans have embraced the "average American" concept and that to be able to relate to the average American and get their vote you have to be an average American. So anything that is different from what the average american achieves is looked upon negatively. So yes Bush went to Yale, but he kind of belittled his own Ivy League education by embracing the fact that he only got C's to seem more relatable. He had failed companies on his resume and in general he just didn't seem to take any pride in being intellectually curious. I think some people overlooked that, and I think some repubs tried to take the focus away from Bush's flaws by pushing the fact that we don't want some hoity toity super smart person. What we really want is an average american that can speak our language. And from there it was born. Dems berated people for not wanting more from their president and Repubs labeled dems as snobby for wanting more from their president. Before Bush I don't recall intelligence even being a point of debate between the two parties.
So for me it is kind of a wash.
I will admit that I am not as well informed as a lot of people on this board. But since I do own and for the most part know how to use a blackberry, my arguments now trump all of yours. I am intellectually superior via my blackberry!
Well that seals the deal then. I am a shoe in for mensa!
I would never use the phrase "intellectually incurious" to describe McCain or to describe a whole lot of conservatives. If I were to use it, which is highly unlikely because that's not how I speak, I'd use it to refer to very specific people for very specific reasons.
Now, McCain's admitted computer illiteracy does concern me for numerous other reasons, but I believe it's more a testament to his age than any "intellectual incuriosity."
see, to me it is a testament to his intellectual incuriosity.
it's one thing not to use a particular gadget - a Blackberry or an IPod or whatever...
It's another to know that there's this big thing out there - - the Internets, the "series of tubes" and never say "wow, that's big - - - I wonder what's going on there..."
I am the 99%.
This is exactly what I find exhausting. This and mominatrix's comment.
You have absolutely no idea how "intellectually curious" she is but you labeled her anyway. Palin successfully governed a state as the chief executive. She became governor b/c of her own merits- she didn't rise to the top b/c of McCain's or anyone else's talking points. Your labeling of Palin says more about your disdain for fiscal and social conservatives than it says about Palin's intelligence. You can try to turn her into Quayle all you want. All it will do is convince people like me to vote for her.
Obama says nothing beyond typical talking points. David Axelrod and others write his speeches, which he isn't capable of delivering without a teleprompter. Obama hasn't come up with a single new idea for improving our country. It's all the same policies we've been hearing about for half a century. He's an empty suit. Biden is out there ripping apart Obama ads and telling everyone Hillary would have made a better VP. Yet that ticket is the one that gets to claim intellectual authority. I'm not questioning Obama/Biden's mental capabilities. I find it disrespectful and I'm sure liberals would find it patently offensive. But if Palin continues to be attacked in this way I will not hold myself back anymore b/c I'm not about to show more respect than what is shown to me.
Please see the post below about how people stick to their beliefs even when evidence of the contrary is presented.
But if Palin continues to be attacked in this way I will not hold myself back anymore b/c I'm not about to show more respect than what is shown to me.
Caden why are you taking attacks on Palin as a personal attack on you? I think you know that you are well respected on this board, why would you assume personal disrespect because people view the candidates differently? Should I assume as a liberal that you are incapable of respecting me, even though there is more to a person than their political beliefs?
I'm not taking it personally. This has nothing to do with what we think of each other. I'm saying I won't hold myself back from making disrespectful comments about Obama/Biden's level of intelligence if liberals repeatedly impugn Palin/McCain for their intelligence. I find such comments exhausting, as I've mentioned several times, and it seems that liberals really don't care about avoiding what conservatives find disrespectful. What's good for the donkey is good for the elephant.
My understanding of McCain's technology use is that he reads emails but he won't send them So McCain is only using his blackberry, at the most, to read emails and make phone calls. So his use of the blackberry is completely neutered.
I hate the fact that McCain doesn't consider technology of greater importance in his personal life since advanced technology is what drives this country at this moment. People who have been left behind the digital divide are at a great disadvantage. I have serious doubts that anyone who doesn't find emails, etc. important in his own life would find that same technology important in anyone else's life.
Is it intellectually dishonest? Perhaps. The leader of the most technologically advnaced nation (or at least one of them) should have a working knowledge of the technology that drives us. Failing to do so suggests a lack of wanting to expand his own knoweldge base.
That's patently false. She's answered plenty of questions in the 3.5 weeks she's been the VP candidate. You want to know her like you know the primary candidates, which is impossible.
I don't understand why you think I have disdain for fiscal or social conservatives. I don't follow that connection at all.
Because she has articulated her positions and you continue to think she is "unaware of the large political goings-on in our world." I think you have disdain for her social positions because I remember your slam on her "cuckoo" religion. I happen to go to a church that is very similar to hers. So you'll have to excuse me for bristling at the description of her religious beliefs as "cuckoo." Liberals have made it abundantly clear what they really think of religious, pro-life conservatives. I'm used to it, which is why I said I'm exhausted by it.
As for Obama, I'm pretty sure he made it through law school & was President of the law review on his own. I 'm sure he taught his own law classes & crafted many of his ideas on his own before becoming a national figure. You can find him writing and thinking about global issues for many years.
He's a lawyer and that's why he's now the smartest candidate around? ok. What groundbreaking legal cases did he take? How many years did he practice? "Senior Lecturers" aren't elites. There are a lot of lecturers that couldn't find their asses with both hands and a teaching assistant. So you'll excuse me for not being blown away by his short-lived career in academia. No professor or lawyer is more elite than the governor of a state. Sorry. I find others thinking for Obama and telling him what to write and say. That's not impressive. He goes overseas and makes a speech. That's not impressive. He's not involved in global issues more than any other mediocre senator. He's not proven himself to be a leader that successfully accomplishes reforms. The most impressive thing he's done is beat Hillary Clinton. I don't think he's curious about intellectualism. I think he's curious about power.
How would you like me to beat him up in this fashion every day? Would it encourage you to debate me? Would it make you respect conservatives more and really think about our arguments?
The problem with your premise is that he DOES have a working knowledge of the technology that drives us. In the same interview in which he said he doesn't send email (due to his injuries, which he didn't mention, that was mentioned 8 years by the press) he also said he wants to "expand his own knowledge base" and said he was working on being better at it. So he is "intellectually curious."
I just find it hilarious that in 2000 he was described as "cybersavvy" but now that he's the Pres candidate he's a blithering idiot about technology.
can you specify which comment of mine you're referencing?
I never mentioned Palin.
I did post two different thoughts:
1. the R's are hoist on their own petard - they put themselves out as not fancy-pants-ivy-league - - it's a dual edged sword
2. the Internet is the biggest technological event of a generation. Failure to consider it as such and be intrigued by its possibilities enough to explore it do so at their peril.
I am the 99%.
I am confused. Does he currently have a working knowledge of technology or does he just merely have a passing desire to learn more? If he is at least currently working on his deficiencies, I feel a little better.
In any case, I find it funny that someone would compare technology in 2000 to technology in 2008. I'm on my third computer since 2000, 5th cell phone, and my 2000 self couldn't have told you what wi-fi meant. Actually supporters of McCain greatly undercut his technologically curious contention if they argue he was savvy in 2000. Yikes. Try taking that argument to silicon valley.
Mominatrix - your post about how concerned you are that he's not more curious about the internet seems to be in direct conflict with this statement:
But McCain's job as chairman of the Senate commerce committee forced him to learn about the Internet early on, and young Web entrepreneurs such as Jerry Yang and Jeff Bezos fascinate him."
I think that might be what Caden was referring to. I know it confused me a bit.
The rest of my big long post was to Zoe who impugned Palin's intelligence. Your post impugned McCain, who IS "intrigued by [technologies'] possibilities enough to explore it." You're completely mischaracterizing him by saying he has never considered it. It's an especially absurd comment to make after Salon called him "cybersavvy."
He gave a list of his favorite websites to the NYT. He basically said his staff prints out info from his favorite sites and gives it to him. He only goes online himself in a limited way - just to the sites he really knows. He said he always goes to his daughter's blog first. (awwh). And he said he's becoming more comfortable about going online himself every day.
Who cares about wifi? McCain isn't running for Network Administrator. Now you're just going over the top. I'd love to see a survey of congress in which people like Pelosi are asked to explain what ethernet is. We all know they aren't internet geeks (well, maybe Larry Craig is) and probably only know as much or less than the typical american, which is - click the browser icon and the internet pops up. The internet itself functions the same way today as it did when Gore invented it. We still use browsers, in many cases the same browser, and many of us still frequent the same websites. I've had multiple computers in 8 years as I'm sure McCain has too. And guess what, they function pretty much the same. You're acting like McCain has never seen or touched a computer in his life. Also, I didn't say he cybersavvy in 2000, Salon did. They had an entire article about it, in case you didn't read my OP.
I used wifi as an example of the way the internet has changed and the way we use the internet has changed since the year 2000. I wasn't suggesting that McCain give me a dissertation on the mechanics of wifi tech. I actually think your misinterpretation of what I wrote was "over the top."
And the term "cybersavvy" is sooooooooooo 2000. Lol. When did Salon call McCain "cybersavvy"?
first, I think that there's a real difference between being fascinated by the captains of the internet industry, and being fascinated by the technology itself. McCain is in the first camp, and (by his own admission) not in the second.
see, this is the sort of thing that gets my goat. It's the "POW card"."
What about his injuries makes him unable to send emails?
I had heard that he was prevented from lifting his arms over shoulder height, but unless you have a REALLY un-ergonomic desk, I don't see how you have to lift your arms over your shoulders to send emails...
can he sit with his arms on the arms of chairs? if so, there are split keyboards out there..
can he talk? there are voice recognition programs out there...
if Steven Hawking can use a computer, then John McCain can. Where there's a will, there's a way.
When I hear things like "he can't because of his injuries" it sounds like an excuse... a lack of will... which leads me to believe that he simply doesn't want to... which leads me to a lack of curiosity.
I am the 99%.
Did you even read the entire article? I posted one quote. McCain had a vision for an e-campaign and hired an internet geek to make it a reality. He obviously has a good grasp on how technology can be used and since he was the foremost proponent of it Salon called him the most cybersavvy in the primaries.
Great. Stop bringing up baseless attacks that relate to his time as a POW and I'll stop reminding everyone of his disabilities.
Because of his war injuries he can't tie his shoes or comb his hair either. Would like to put his life under a microscope?
http://graphics.boston.com/news/politics/campaign2000/news/McCain_character_loyal_to_a_fault+.shtml
That's your opinion, but it's not reality. Obama has never flown a plane, or been in the military but you obviously think he's capable of being the commander in chief of the armed forces. But suddenly McCain needs to be an expert about something that has zero relevance to being the President? What a double standard.
Steven Hawking uses a computer b/c he has no way to communicate or do his job without it. McCain has numerous ways to communicate and do his job without using a keyboard. It's not for you to judge how he gets his job done. Just b/c "some" people use split keyboards doesn't mean all disabled people have to use them or else they're intellectually incurious. McCain has his own system for running his office and it serve him just fine. I find it appalling that people judge him for that. Clinton sent a grand total of 2 emails his entire presidency and one was a test to see if the email button worked. Is he intellectually incurious?
I'm still reading through this playing catch up this afternoon but I had to stop and tell Caden how much I love her!
I don't feel like the old lady anymore on here since I don't ipod or blackberry either.
Okay now I have read this whole thing and more kudos to Caden for battling this by herself.
Maybe it is my being conservative but I totally agreed with Caden on all the points that were brought up.
It is a bit disheartening at times to see the constant put downs of our candidates. Sure they are not perfect but neither are Obama & Biden. But rarely do you see their imperfections or lack of knowldege on certain issues.
I've said it before and I'll say it again. The main reason why most liberals dislike Palin is because of her religious, pro-life views. Isn't the "intellectual incurious" description really just an extension of this? We all know that religious views are not intellectual views.
Agree 100%.