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Vaccines

I brought this up over on GP and there were some very strong opinions. Just curious how this board compares.

How do you feel about the debate over whether vaccinations could play a role in developmental illnesses? Will you/did you follow a traditional vaccination schedule or a modified one, or no vaccinations?

I myself am a supporter of more conservative vaccination schedules. Regardless of which side they land on, I think potential parents owe it to their children to learn about the issues (beyond what media says) and make an informed decision for their family.


mutt_zps2fb5f039-1_zps7220f27c
BFP 11.8.12 * EDD 7.17.13 * MC 12.20.12
Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, over!
«1

Re: Vaccines

  • we don't have any developmental issues or vaccine reactions in our family history so we vaccinate on the traditional schedule. 

    i feel that a large part of the debate is fueled by sensationalism and fear/misinformation.

  • Both my brother and I had some bad reactions to vaccines.  My brother's were potentially deadly in fact my parents were told he would be mentally retarded because of them (luckily, this was not the case and my brother is now a medical research scientist).  My reaction left me unable to use my leg and in a wheelchair for a week during kindergarten (great way to start school, btw!).  They're not 100% sure what we were allergic to.  My brother's reaction was when he was an infant after getting 6 vaccines and mine were caused by a booster.

    My Dad's a pharmacist and is very anti-vaccine.  He won't get into why but he advises doing a lot of research.  In fact, if my Dad had his way, we would prefer none of his grandchildren get vaccinated.  However, I live near the border and in an area where Whooping Cough is currently a huge problem so I intent on doing Dr. Sears' schedule and leave out a few that  my doctor thinks may have caused our reactions.

    But if I have a child born with an already compromised immune system I would try to vaccinate per my doctor's suggestions.

  • I have a cousin with Asperger's Syndrome.  My aunt is pretty crunchy, and I know she truly believes that vaccines do cause issues like Autism.  I don't know how my cousin was vaccinated, but I'm going to ask when I see her at Christmas because I'm curious.

    I think my aunt is the crunchiest person in our family, except for Jeff & I, so I'm assuming that the rest of my family members and his have always followed the traditional schedule.  None of us have side effects or developmental issues. 

    Since we don't yet have kids and won't have them for awhile I'll admit I haven't done a ton of research on vaccinations.  I do remember Andrew Wakefield's MMR/Autism research correlations were falsified.  I also feel that animals are over vaccinated and follow an alternative schedule for our pets. 

    Based on what I know now, I'm pretty sure we'd follow a more traditional schedule.  I don't see a reason to vaccinate for chicken pox, but I do see a reason to vaccinate for whooping cough.  I'm OK with vaccinating my theoretical kids with vaccinations that have been around for a long ass time so that kids who cannot be vaccinated are protected.  At least until I see truly good research indicating otherwise. 

  • I've done quite a bit of research and haven't found a shred of evidence that there's any benefit to a delayed vaccination schedule. The only real effect is that your child is unprotected against these deadly diseases for a longer period of time, increasing their risk. I can't believe that people can read about infants dying of preventable diseases and still think it's not a big deal not to vaccinate. Just last year, at least one unvaccinated baby died of HiB in Minnesota and several others who were too young to be vaccinated were seriously ill (I don't know if they suffered permanent brain damage or not).

    I am slightly biased on this because my dad had a sister who died of HiB when she was one month old - that was before the vaccine was available. It was almost 60 years ago and if you could hear the pain that's still in my 92 year old grandfather's voice when he describes watching his baby seize and die, you would run your child immediately to the doctor to get every vaccination available. 

    "I
  • The idea that people even feel the need to bring this topic up AGAIN astounds me.

    How did that man get through pharmacy school since he is so obviously illiterate?

    image
  • I have nothing to add that's of any value. I just like like this pic.

    image

  • imagemajorwife:

    I don't mind an increase in the number of kids with autism. I just don't want an increase in the number of kids dead from poilo or measles or whooping cough.

    This is how I feel.  Even if there was some causal link between vaccines and autism, which of course has yet to be proven, I'd rather have a live child with Autism than a dead child.  Choosing between a slightly elevated risk for a disability versus a significantly elevated risk of epidemic illness killing thousands of children is a no brainer for me.  And then there is the fact that that potentially elevated risk has never been proven. 

  • imagetalltalltrees:

    I am slightly biased on this because my dad had a sister who died of HiB when she was one month old - that was before the vaccine was available. It was almost 60 years ago and if you could hear the pain that's still in my 92 year old grandfather's voice when he describes watching his baby seize and die, you would run your child immediately to the doctor to get every vaccination available. 

    My grandmother had a sister who died at the age of 2 from whooping cough.  She could describe her sister's illness and her last moments of not being able to breathe.

    Of course its up to the parents whether to vaccinate their kids or not.  I just think it's incredibly sh!tty that they are counting on others to keep their kid safe.  All it takes is one strain, and their kid could end up in an iron lung.

    We're vaccing on the recommended schedule as we've never had any complications on either side of the family.

    A big old middle finger to you, stupid Nest.
  • I have a Ph.D. in cell biology and my husband a Ph.D. in immunology. He is currently a professor of immunology studying anti viral responses.  To say we are pro-vax doesn't even come close to covering it.  It's not just we believe in the importance of vaccination to avoid disease - it is the fact that there are simply no studies indicating that vaccines cause developmental harm, and ample studies that demonstrate they are safe.  Moreover, a recent study indicates that there is no advantage to delayed vaccination schedules (kids who were vaxed on schedule verus a delayed schedule had identical developmental patterns).  By delaying vaccines, there is only a greater opportunity for missed doses.

    In my opinion, not vaccinating is akin to not using sunblock or refusing antibiotics for a fulminant infection.  It simply boggles my mind that someone would choose to endanger their child and it infuriates me that they further choose to endager mine.

     

    image
    image

    I am a runner, knitter, scientist, DE-IVF veteran, and stage III colon cancer survivor.
  • imageSpenjamins:

    The idea that people even feel the need to bring this topic up AGAIN astounds me.

    Oh, my apologies. I wasn't around the last time it was brought up. Next time I have a topic I'd like to see opinions on I'll let you know so you can tell me if/when it was discussed before and what the consensus was. Big Smile


    mutt_zps2fb5f039-1_zps7220f27c
    BFP 11.8.12 * EDD 7.17.13 * MC 12.20.12
    Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, over!
  • imageblue_elle:
    imageSpenjamins:

    The idea that people even feel the need to bring this topic up AGAIN astounds me.

    Oh, my apologies. I wasn't around the last time it was brought up. Next time I have a topic I'd like to see opinions on I'll let you know so you can tell me if/when it was discussed before and what the consensus was. Big Smile

    Um, have you been living under a rock? This topic gets brought up at least once per board per week.

    And the attempt at snark wasn't funny.

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  • imageMrs_Liberto:
    imageblue_elle:
    imageSpenjamins:

    The idea that people even feel the need to bring this topic up AGAIN astounds me.

    Oh, my apologies. I wasn't around the last time it was brought up. Next time I have a topic I'd like to see opinions on I'll let you know so you can tell me if/when it was discussed before and what the consensus was. Big Smile

    Um, have you been living under a rock? This topic gets brought up at least once per board per week.

    And the attempt at snark wasn't funny.

    Really? I went through the last two months of posts before posting and saw nothing on this board about vaccines. If you aren't interested in seeing another post about a topic then don't open it. It was clear from the title what it was about. It's really nothing to get upset about.


    mutt_zps2fb5f039-1_zps7220f27c
    BFP 11.8.12 * EDD 7.17.13 * MC 12.20.12
    Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, over!
  • I'd love to hear what journal articles you've read to learn about the issues.
  • imageMrs_Liberto:
    imageblue_elle:
    imageSpenjamins:

    The idea that people even feel the need to bring this topic up AGAIN astounds me.

    Oh, my apologies. I wasn't around the last time it was brought up. Next time I have a topic I'd like to see opinions on I'll let you know so you can tell me if/when it was discussed before and what the consensus was. Big Smile

    Um, have you been living under a rock? This topic gets brought up at least once per board per week.

    And the attempt at snark wasn't funny.

    Ouch. Why so cranky?

    The topic gets brought up a lot because many people have strong opinions on it. It was clear from the title it was a vaccine post. You could have just ignored it. 

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  • imageMrs_Liberto:
    imageblue_elle:
    imageSpenjamins:

    The idea that people even feel the need to bring this topic up AGAIN astounds me.

    Oh, my apologies. I wasn't around the last time it was brought up. Next time I have a topic I'd like to see opinions on I'll let you know so you can tell me if/when it was discussed before and what the consensus was. Big Smile

    Um, have you been living under a rock? This topic gets brought up at least once per board per week.

    And the attempt at snark wasn't funny.

    Ouch. Why so cranky?

    The topic gets brought up a lot because many people have strong opinions on it. It was clear from the title it was a vaccine post. You could have just ignored it. 

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  • imageepphd:

    In my opinion, not vaccinating is akin to not using sunblock or refusing antibiotics for a fulminant infection.  It simply boggles my mind that someone would choose to endanger their child and it infuriates me that they further choose to endager mine.

     

    I actually don't wear sunblock.  I worked at a summer camp outdoors all summer long and never put on sunblock.  I also am the only one who never got a sunburn and I walked away at the end of the summer still the palest person you will ever meet.  Wearing actually clothing (not bootie shorts and tank tops) and hats works just as well.  So really, this is a bad comparison, IMO.  I'm also the only one who got my Vitamin D.  :)

    I'm not anti-vax at all.  I just don't want to give my child 5-6 at a time and risk what happened to my brother and I happening to them.  I like the idea of going in more often and  only getting 1-2 at a time so if a reaction occurs we can better understand what caused it and try avoiding it in the future.  Because when you give a kid 6 and they have a reaction to 4 of them that could very easily kill them a lot faster than the chicken pox ever would.

    Though my brother is vaxxing his baby on schedule and they only problem so far is he spikes a fever (101ish) after he gets his shots for a few days.  So far nothing more serious which gives me hope it was just a fluke thing my brother and I had.

  • It sounds like you and your family have a propensity for an allergic type reaction to a vaccine component - which is certainly something to be fearful of and wary of when considering vaccinations.  that's totally fair.  Though it should also be noted that the composition of vaccines has changed since we were kids.  Still - it's certainly something you and your pediatrician should discuss.

    However, the notion that five at a time is bad whereas 1-2 is OK is just not based on science. It's based on feelings. (And you are certainly not the only person who has ever mentioned this so please don't think I am "picking" on you.)

    The fact is, a single bacterium has on the order of thousands of different antigens that your child will have an immune reaction to when he picks up a toy from the ground and puts it in his mouth.  A multivalent vaccine presents on the order of a few hundred.  So whether your child mounts a reaction to 100,000 antigens a day (in the absence of a vaccine) versus 100,050 (with a single vax) versus 100,250 (with five vaxes)... it's just not a big difference.

    Regarding sunblock, I would suspect you would agree it would be poor public policy to tell people to NOT use it on their children or that it is more dangerous than the risk of skin cancer.  That you have avoided serious long term consequences thus far is not really relevant - morevoer, your decision not to use sunblock won't affect me - whereas someone who does not vaccinate her child might affect me or my child.

     

    image
    image

    I am a runner, knitter, scientist, DE-IVF veteran, and stage III colon cancer survivor.
  • My reasons for only doing 1-2 at a time is so we can figure out what's causing it.  It was very serious (like I said, my brother almost died, in fact they told my parents to prepare for that) and since we don't know which vaccine caused it, we can't know why.  At the very least if my baby DOES react to it, we can better figure out why.  At least that's my theory.  I'll discuss it all with my doctor when the time comes. 

    But I am hoping the improvements in vaccines over the years has completely done away with this problem and after kid #1 I can relax and deal with kid #2 normally.  I guess I'm just really paranoid!

    And as far as sunblock goes, I do shudder when I see people at the beach with their 2-3 month olds and even when they have sunblock on.  So I'd rather tell people to be responsible and keep their kids out of the harsh sun for long periods of time, sunblock or no.  :)  And I'm near fuming when I see someone putting sunscreen on their babies, no matter what age.  Ugh.  (Sorry, I totally went off subject!)

  • i've really enjoyed reading this post.
  • imagejebuell:

    My reasons for only doing 1-2 at a time is so we can figure out what's causing it.  It was very serious (like I said, my brother almost died, in fact they told my parents to prepare for that) and since we don't know which vaccine caused it, we can't know why.  At the very least if my baby DOES react to it, we can better figure out why.  At least that's my theory.  I'll discuss it all with my doctor when the time comes. 

    But I am hoping the improvements in vaccines over the years has completely done away with this problem and after kid #1 I can relax and deal with kid #2 normally.  I guess I'm just really paranoid!

    And as far as sunblock goes, I do shudder when I see people at the beach with their 2-3 month olds and even when they have sunblock on.  So I'd rather tell people to be responsible and keep their kids out of the harsh sun for long periods of time, sunblock or no.  :)  And I'm near fuming when I see someone putting sunscreen on their babies, no matter what age.  Ugh.  (Sorry, I totally went off subject!)

    Jbuell--You are in the minority of the population who has a diagnosed, familial reaction to vaccines. I seriously hope you aren't walking around arguing your logic to others--given that you are so clearly a minority. Your situation doesn't apply to about 90-95% of the population.

    Regarding sunscreen, I'm guessing the reasoning behind this rationale is that you are opposed to the ingredients in a lot of sunscreens. There are natural sunscreens you know. 

    However, the logic of "I become near fuming when I see people putting sunscreen on their children.." is just odd.  Even short exposure to the sun has deleterious effects. Protecting exposed areas is a good idea; using a combination of clothing (sun protectant) and sunscreen. 


  • imageFLVintageBride:
    imagemajorwife:

    I don't mind an increase in the number of kids with autism. I just don't want an increase in the number of kids dead from poilo or measles or whooping cough.

    This is how I feel.  Even if there was some causal link between vaccines and autism, which of course has yet to be proven, I'd rather have a live child with Autism than a dead child.  Choosing between a slightly elevated risk for a disability versus a significantly elevated risk of epidemic illness killing thousands of children is a no brainer for me.  And then there is the fact that that potentially elevated risk has never been proven. 

    It not only hasn't been proven, it has been thoroughly disproved. Tens of thousands of children have been tracked. Whole countries have cut vaccines from their schedules and seen the rate of autism spectrum disorders remain unchanged.
  • You can live with an autistic child.  You cannot live with a death one.  Well not in any non-gross way. 

    I feel bad for laughing at that!!

    Honestly I don't know enough about human vaccines to really say, but that said, I definitely lean towards a moderate schedule.

    There is no harm in spacing out vaccines rather than giving all at once, and asking your doctor to help you decide which are necessary and not (again, I do not know about human vaccines), and to help you choose the best products based on the ingredients.

    Vaccines in pets are very poorly regulated, and its all really run by the vaccine manufacturers. There are very serious proven side effects including most notably, many cancers and the vaccine schedules have nothing to do with what is necessary for immunity. And they push vaccines that are ineffective, unnecessary for the specific individual, and for issues that have no proven immunity (like parasites). So I am definitely VERY conservative with animal vaccines. Thankfully I believe that human vaccines are much better regulated, but I would still want a good doctor that would help me make informed decisions.

    image
  • imageAlisha_A:

     but that said, I definitely lean towards a moderate schedule.

    There is no harm in spacing out vaccines rather than giving all at once,

    This is actually not known.  That could be true, but modified schedules haven't been studied for efficacy, so there could be harm in that they could be ineffective. I'm not sure why "oh just space them out, it's fine" is such a common assumption. 

    image
    image

    I am a runner, knitter, scientist, DE-IVF veteran, and stage III colon cancer survivor.
  • Did anyone read Jenny McCarthy's book? She even says her child was stuck during the birthing process and had issues breathing once born. OK you'd think she would relate some of her son's problems to that? not vaccines. That's just how I feel.

    I am pro-vaccine. If something were to happen to my DD and I could have prevented it w/ a vaccine I would NEVER be able to live w/ myself. We decided to do the regular schedule, the only one that I held back on was the Hep B after birth, and waited until her 2mth apt for that one.

     

  • imagefoundmylazybum:

    Jbuell--You are in the minority of the population who has a diagnosed, familial reaction to vaccines. I seriously hope you aren't walking around arguing your logic to others--given that you are so clearly a minority. Your situation doesn't apply to about 90-95% of the population.

    Regarding sunscreen, I'm guessing the reasoning behind this rationale is that you are opposed to the ingredients in a lot of sunscreens. There are natural sunscreens you know. 

    However, the logic of "I become near fuming when I see people putting sunscreen on their children.." is just odd.  Even short exposure to the sun has deleterious effects. Protecting exposed areas is a good idea; using a combination of clothing (sun protectant) and sunscreen. 

    The OPs questions was "what do YOU plan to do...".  So I answered what I plan to do.  I never implied I would recommend anyone else do this and explained why I have made my decision.

    And you should note that there is a HUGE difference between sunBLOCK and sunSCREEN, the two products are NOT the same.  No one should use sunscreen on an infant or child.  It's a worthless product that does a lot more harm than good because it makes people think they are being protected by the sun when they're really not (it does not block UVA rays and often contains very harmful chemicals, and, btw, most "natural sunscreens" are really mis-labeled sunblocks).  SunBLOCK on children is perfectly acceptable and should be put on kids who are going to be in the sun a lot. Sunscreen is not.  I really hope if you have kids you don't make this very common mistake.


  • imageepphd:
    imageAlisha_A:

     but that said, I definitely lean towards a moderate schedule.

    There is no harm in spacing out vaccines rather than giving all at once,

    This is actually not known.  That could be true, but modified schedules haven't been studied for efficacy, so there could be harm in that they could be ineffective. I'm not sure why "oh just space them out, it's fine" is such a common assumption. 

     

    plus there is the real harm that when you space them out over more visits people are more likely to miss them.  sure in theory you can still get them all, but the real public health reality is that people don't

     

    the whole vax debate boggles my mind and seriously makes me fear for the future of our society.  the fact that there is any debate at all just shows how poor the level of science/logic education is in the country.

    And its on both sides from the "anti-vax" people as well as the "climate change skeptics" on the other side. 

  • imagejebuell:
    imagefoundmylazybum:

    Jbuell--You are in the minority of the population who has a diagnosed, familial reaction to vaccines. I seriously hope you aren't walking around arguing your logic to others--given that you are so clearly a minority. Your situation doesn't apply to about 90-95% of the population.

    Regarding sunscreen, I'm guessing the reasoning behind this rationale is that you are opposed to the ingredients in a lot of sunscreens. There are natural sunscreens you know. 

    However, the logic of "I become near fuming when I see people putting sunscreen on their children.." is just odd.  Even short exposure to the sun has deleterious effects. Protecting exposed areas is a good idea; using a combination of clothing (sun protectant) and sunscreen. 

    The OPs questions was "what do YOU plan to do...".  So I answered what I plan to do.  I never implied I would recommend anyone else do this and explained why I have made my decision.

    And you should note that there is a HUGE difference between sunBLOCK and sunSCREEN, the two products are NOT the same.  No one should use sunscreen on an infant or child.  It's a worthless product that does a lot more harm than good because it makes people think they are being protected by the sun when they're really not (it does not block UVA rays and often contains very harmful chemicals, and, btw, most "natural sunscreens" are really mis-labeled sunblocks).  SunBLOCK on children is perfectly acceptable and should be put on kids who are going to be in the sun a lot. Sunscreen is not.  I really hope if you have kids you don't make this very common mistake.


    Otherwise I might face your wrathful stare down on the beach as you examine my sun products, and judge hypothetical parenting skills. Ooohhhhh. 

  • Ya, I had a student hobbling with leg braces and crutches from polio. 

    Just how do you think her mother is going to explain how she just never got around to getting her the vax?

  • imageclea:

    Ya, I had a student hobbling with leg braces and crutches from polio. 

    Just how do you think her mother is going to explain how she just never got around to getting her the vax?

    I don't know what grade you teach and how long ago you had this student, but between the years of 1980 and 1999 there were only 150 or so cases of Polio in the US... only 1 was a "wild" poliovirus (where it was "caught").  And that person was born and caught the disease outside of the US and brought it in.  The last case of "wild" poliovirus that was "caught" within the US was in 1979.  144 of the remaining cases were VAPP cases which is actually caused by the vaccine.  So, unless this student is older, you just happened to teach that one student who has the wild poliovirus, you teach within the Minnesota/Iowa/Wisconsin Amish community, or the child was born in one of the 5 or so countries where polio is still a problem because the vaccine isn't as readily available, it's more likely that your student caught Polio from the actual vaccine and you really shouldn't rush to judge their parents.

    But I would like to note here that they stopped using the vaccine that can cause VAPP in 2000 and there were no reported cases of Polio in the US since 1999 until 2005 when there was an outbreak in an Amish community and even that was eventually traced back to the old vaccine which is still being used in other countries.  So the vaccine given in the US is perfectly safe and won't cause VAPP.  Just don't trust an Amish doctor to vaccinate your child.  (That last sentence was a joke, btw!  I know it's sometimes hard to tell that over the internet so I just wanted to clarify.)

  • It's now possible to teach a student that has moved to the United States from another country. Crazy, I know.

    Polio may not be endemic here, but until it has actually been erased from the face of the earth a la small pox (or airplane travel comes to an end), I don't think it's a great idea to give up the vaccine.

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