How would you vote on this?

nicoleabrock

We have a controversial issue on the ballot in CA this election.  How would you vote?  PROPOSITION 19 - LEGALIZES MARIJUANA UNDER CALIFORNIA BUT NOT FEDERAL LAW.  PERMITS LOCAL GOVERNMENTS TO REGULATE AND TAX COMMERCIAL PRODUCTION, DISTRIBUTION, AND SALE OF MARIJUANA. INITIATIVE STATUTE.  Allows people 21 years old or older to possess, cultivate, or transport marijuana for personal use. Fiscal Impact: Depending on federal, state, and local government actions, potential increased tax and fee revenues in the hundreds of millions of dollars annually and potential correctional savings of several tens of millions of dollars annually.

Karen2905

What are the arguments against it?

nicoleabrock

From what I hear, people are concerned about the increased accessibility amongst underage individuals. There are also some extremist that say people are going to be smoking on their lunch breaks if it becomes legal.  I don't really buy that.

nicoleabrock

Oh and there is a concern that Mexico drug cartels will create havoc because it will cut into their business.

Karen2905

So we're talking complete legalization... not just medicinal/prescription sales?

munkii

This is the thing, whether it's legal or not, people are still going to buy under the table.  Why pay taxes on something you can get cheaply without taxes?  Besides, people who have had no problem buying it illegally are not all of a sudden going to have a problem with it.  Mexican cartels won't wreck havoc because they'll more likely see an increase in sales.

Laws regarding DUI are to remain the same after the legalization--how will they test people they suspect are high without detaining them?  Also, how will cops/DAs know if you've purchased it from a licensed retailer?

I would vote yes but would only expect to see a savings in funding from less criminalization--less bookings, lock-ups, terms served, etc.  I wouldn't anticipate a huge surge in tax revenue, for sure.

ETA: Going back to the licensed retailer thing...people, under this law, can grow their own legally.  If law enforcement officials accuse you of buying illegally, the question isn't only how will they know you haven't purchased from a licensed retailer but how will they know you didn't grow your own without violating your 4th amendment rights? 

nicoleabrock

Karen2905:

So we're talking complete legalization... not just medicinal/prescription sales?

Yes, complete legalization not just for medicinal purposes.

nicoleabrock

munkii:

This is the thing, whether it's legal or not, people are still going to buy under the table.  Why pay taxes on something you can get cheaply without taxes? 

Don't you think this will drive the price up even for people purchasing under the table?

nicoleabrock

munkii:

If law enforcement officials accuse you of buying illegally, the question isn't only how will they know you haven't purchased from a licensed retailer but how will they know you didn't grow your own without violating your 4th amendment rights? 

I'm curious if this will become an issue.... where you obtained it and how you can prove you purchased it legally or grew it legally yourself.  If you think about alcohol and tabacco, where you got it isn't ever questioned.

munkii

It might drive it up slightly, but that would still be across the board legal and illegal.  No?  Even if it didn't raise it across the board, obtaining it illegally would probably still be cheaper--they have to maintain clientele!

Also, how will the CA regulate marijuana so they know the licensed retailers aren't cutting/soaking it with other chemicals? 

Karen2905

munkii:

Laws regarding DUI are to remain the same after the legalization--how will they test people they suspect are high without detaining them?  Also, how will cops/DAs know if you've purchased it from a licensed retailer?

This is my biggest concern.  I don't doubt the medicinal advantages of weed, but the fact is that it is a mind and mood altering drug.  You can't drive high.  You probably can't work high either (depending on your job).  Other cognitive impairing drugs are regulated.  Alcohol has measured limits. Prescriptions drugs that effect driving (muscle relaxants, for example) are regulated through pharmacies and doctors orders.   But how would you "measure" levels of highness?  Would it just be illegal to be high in a public area? Anywhere outside the home?

My fear with legalizing MJ would be the irresponsibility of the users and how it may effect others, especially with motor vehicles. 

 

nicoleabrock

Karen2905:

But how would you "measure" levels of highness?  Would it just be illegal to be high in a public area? Anywhere outside the home?

My fear with legalizing MJ would be the irresponsibility of the users and how it may effect others, especially with motor vehicles. 

 

I imagine they would have field sobriety tests just as they do for alcohol.  I think you can tell when people are impaired from marijuana.  Pupils dialated, decreased motor function, etc.  But you are right, you can't take someones blood and exactly measure how impaired someone is like you can do with alcohol.

 

Milliechel67

Karen2905:

munkii:

Laws regarding DUI are to remain the same after the legalization--how will they test people they suspect are high without detaining them?  Also, how will cops/DAs know if you've purchased it from a licensed retailer?

This is my biggest concern.  I don't doubt the medicinal advantages of weed, but the fact is that it is a mind and mood altering drug.  You can't drive high.  You probably can't work high either (depending on your job).  Other cognitive impairing drugs are regulated.  Alcohol has measured limits. Prescriptions drugs that effect driving (muscle relaxants, for example) are regulated through pharmacies and doctors orders.   But how would you "measure" levels of highness?  Would it just be illegal to be high in a public area? Anywhere outside the home?

My fear with legalizing MJ would be the irresponsibility of the users and how it may effect others, especially with motor vehicles. 

These are my biggest problems with it.  I made a mistake and didn't re-register to vote after we moved so I can't vote this time but I'm pretty sure I'd be voting against because there are too many uncertain pieces in my mind.

kelnyc

All very good arguments, but I did vote for it this morning. Marijuana that is sold by the state will be heavily regulated much like alcohol is in states like Pennsylvania where you can only purchase it in a state-run store. It will likely become pre-packaged so the consumer would know if it ws tampered with before buying. For me, it was almost a no-brainer because I see people smoking here every day. The "medicinal" card is so easy to get (Literally, you can have a doctor say you should take it for anxiety and pay $150, Done.) that legalizing it for everyone is almost an afterthought. There have been no measurable increases in auto accidents, crime, etc. since the medicinal cards went into effect. If anything, the regulation and taxing of it will make it safer and increase revenue, which this state definitely needs. As for the cartels, not everyone is going to buy from the state (including those who are undocumented) and we are only dealing with CA for now, so there will still be a market for their product.

kelnyc

nicoleabrock:

munkii:

If law enforcement officials accuse you of buying illegally, the question isn't only how will they know you haven't purchased from a licensed retailer but how will they know you didn't grow your own without violating your 4th amendment rights? 

I'm curious if this will become an issue.... where you obtained it and how you can prove you purchased it legally or grew it legally yourself.  If you think about alcohol and tabacco, where you got it isn't ever questioned.

What I have heard is that you will have to carry the receipt of you purchase which is coded by sale date and location so they know it's legit. If you are pulled over for erratic driving, for example, and you don't have the receipt, you'll be charged with the DUI.

dvshaw

This is a very interesting conversation. From what I understand about medicinal chemistry and metabolism of drugs, there are VERY few changes between what's legal, and what's illegal. For instance, morphine and heroin.... practically the same chemically, and your body reacts to them very similarly. Why some are mandated by a doctor and others illegal? I think it depends on the drug. From what I understand, pot was made illegal because it was competing with the timber industry... 

I definitely think some research would need to be done regarding smoking and driving... i.e. response time, how to test, what the "legal limit" is....  

Anyways, I would probably vote in favor of it... CA needs all the tax money it can get right now, and I'm all about fair tax type legislation. Allow people to control how much tax they pay. 

karma007

I only have a sec, but I voted "For', if only out of sheer curiosity. It's also been interesting seeing some cities (ie Oakland) making plans to spend the tax revenue that doesn't even exist yet.

Milliechel67

dvshaw:

From what I understand, pot was made illegal because it was competing with the timber industry... 

What!?

dvshaw

Milliechel67:

dvshaw:

From what I understand, pot was made illegal because it was competing with the timber industry... 

What!?

Yep! Indirectly... hemp products were better quality and cheaper than timber based products. 

http://www.ozarkia.net/bill/pot/blunderof37.html 

Not sure if this is the best link, or if this is the whole truth and nothing but the truth... but I do know this is a commonly accepted theory. 

kelliejo83

So, how did you vote? And did it end up passing?  (Yep, I'm too lazy to find out on my own.)

nicoleabrock

kelliejo83:

So, how did you vote? And did it end up passing?  (Yep, I'm too lazy to find out on my own.)

I voted yes and so did my husband.  It didn't pass though.  My husband said it is because the younger generation didn't show up to "rock the vote".  Although Democrats almost exclusively took all the state seats, CA is still "conservative" enough to not pass legalization of marijuana.

 

Fotophreak4c

i would vote no for this, but this is coming from a complete goody goody who's never drank alcohol either i say no to anything that alters a person's ability to be at their best potential