October 2009 Weddings
Dear Community,
Our tech team has launched updates to The Nest today. As a result of these updates, members of the Nest Community will need to change their password in order to continue participating in the community. In addition, The Nest community member's avatars will be replaced with generic default avatars. If you wish to revert to your original avatar, you will need to re-upload it via The Nest.
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Note: This only affects The Nest's community members and will not affect members on The Bump or The Knot.
Our tech team has launched updates to The Nest today. As a result of these updates, members of the Nest Community will need to change their password in order to continue participating in the community. In addition, The Nest community member's avatars will be replaced with generic default avatars. If you wish to revert to your original avatar, you will need to re-upload it via The Nest.
If you have questions about this, please email help@theknot.com.
Thank you.
Note: This only affects The Nest's community members and will not affect members on The Bump or The Knot.
TSA, yes, it's on Oct 09 now...
What are everyone's feelings on the machines and pat-downs?
I am not happy about it. We were making final travel plans for 12/27-1/1, and now flying is out of the picture. I think it's disgusting that any government agency would find it acceptable to bully citizens and visitors into forced searches (and sometimes seizures).
Who here thinks these things are necessary? Do you feel like it's ok to abandon your rights for a sense of security?
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Re: TSA, yes, it's on Oct 09 now...
1. My husband is an airline pilot, and his company is forcing them to refuse body scanners. Even if they miss their flight because of it, refuse body scanners. Also, my husband is not keen on going through an xray machine every single day. Bad for your health. I agree.
2. When we went to Europe in September and flew out of germany to come home, their TSA procedures were exactly what the new procedures are now. First of all, the idiot assumed I was pregnant when I was putting my stuff through and made a hand gesture over his stomach saying "ah pregnant"...no ***, I'm just fat. Then when I went through (not setting off any alarms) a lady pulled me to the side, put her hands in my crotch twice from the front, then her hands between my legs twice from behind. I am the type of person who does not deal with bullshit, but since I was in a foreign country and did not want to get arrested....I bit my tongue as hard as I could. I was so upset I would not make eye contact with her...then he stuck her hands down the inside of my pants over my lower stomach area (my pregnant baby area) and then told me in a firm voice to raise my shirt up. UM NO....and she kept yelling at me to raise it higher. I finally said it wasn't going any higher...biting my tongue again. THEN she put her hands over my bra and chest from the front, then pulled my bra out (which has under wire and is form fitting) and stuck her hand under my bra...yes my shirt is still on and she continue to jam her hand under my bra all the way around. I was in total shock, and as soon as we got to the gate I lost it...I cried, a lot. I felt so violated and I was SO MAD because I couldn't say anything. My biggest fear is getting arrested in a foreign country.
Sorry that was a mouth full, but I still have a problem with how I was treated. Yes, I am big on safety and understand the concern and of course I want my husband and others to be safe when they fly. But do I agree with being felt up and violated because it's a requirement? No...
Holy crap, Kristina, that sucks. It's absolutely sickening that you had to go through that. I haven't flown with the new regulations yet, and I know some airports are worse than others, but I can't believe things like that are happening and some people are OK with that.
I am absolutely against the scanners/groping. What happened to the Constitution when simply choosing to fly on an airplane means that your rights to go out the window?
And I completely agree with Kristina's first point too- they haven't been proven safe OR effective at all. It's all a matter of confusing people into thinking they're safe.Kristina, that's awful! I don't know what to say. How invasive!
I haven't flown since the new regulations either and to be honest I am not even sure if they've been adopted in Canada yet. All I know is I want to feel safe in the air and I think it's disgusting that we've been reduced to third world level of travel. I should feel I can leave and return to my own country with out being reduced to the level of a terror suspect.
I am willing to be searched to a point if everyone else is being subjected to the same thing and it's standard procedure. But I refuse to be fondled and gropped or stripped by security staff who I have no idea what their actual level of training is or if they are just doing it because they get off on it. Insane
Ack. Kristina... I feel the beginnings of an anxiety attack just reading your account.
I could not handle that situation. At. All.
What are the reasons they've given your husband for refusing? Has he refused yet? What was the outcome?
DH starts his treck back from Africa soon... I'm interested to hear what he observes in the four airports he has to go through.
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I'm sure I'm in the minority here, but as long as there are terrible people in the world doing terrible things, I'm willing to let them search me... I've got nothing to hide. And you shouldn't HAVE anything to hide, so who cares if they want to search you? Maybe searching everybody will help catch more bad guys.
Update: I just read Kristina's story and I hope that's not what the "new regs" are here. A full pat-down is fine by me, but they shouldn't get to 2nd base with you.
While I'm all about rights to privacy, I'm on this team as well. I'm not happy about it, but I'll do it if I want to fly.
Kristina, your story is hair-raising. Personal invasion aside, the person doing the searching certainly could have offered more professionalism. I'm sorry you went through that.
It was interesting - on the radio this morning I heard a story about how Israeli airports manage their security without the fully body scanners - and have had a near perfect track record for the past eight years. I would like to think that the US can match their standards. A lot of it has to do simply with training and continuous evaluation of their security guards.
I'm also prob the minority and don't mind people searching me, however, after reading Kristina's story, that I would not be okay with. I hope beyond hope that is not what the "standard" is or is going to be b/c I for one will have no problem saying something. I'm not about to let someone grope all over me like that. I'm pretty sure that I would prob start crying.
Yet, your new choices at the airport are:
A) Have a nude image of you taken using potentially dangerous levels of radiation. You then have no control or knowledge on what is done with this image after it's taken. And yes, while the TSA website says they cannot be saved, images have been saved and leaked.
How are these not "unreasonable searches" ?? Apparently buying an airline ticket, or being a pilot/flight attendant is probable cause for criminal activity.
And I totally agree about the Israeli airport security. They use highly trained intelligence that asks questions, reads body language, and knows what "suspicious behaviors" to look for. That's what we need to be spending the money on.
Sorry for the length- this is definitely a topic I feel strongly about...
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I guess I'm in the minority as well. If you buy a ticket, you're basically agreeing to abide by the TSA rules for security. I however, have not been searched or scanned since I haven't flown in a year or so. I might feel differently if I've experienced it first hand. Working for airlines might throw a monkey wrench into things for me. I would NOT feel comfortable exposing myself to that much radiation on a regular basis and I would absolutely decline the scanner if I was pregnant.
That being said, I have been subject to an airport frisking once - they didn't go under clothes but they were pretty thorough. I set off the big metal detector but didn't have anything in my pockets. They used the hand scanner and it never beeped so they went to the manual technique. They told me that they'd use the back of their hands if they went over "sensitive" areas - because that somehow makes it less intrusive? They told me that the combined metal you're wearing is sometimes enough to set off the big detector but the items themselves are not enough to trigger the hand wands. (things like watches, cosmetics, bra hardware, etc.) And then I got pulled out of the line at the gate to have my bag "randomly" searched. Ha. Yeah right. Just be honest about it at least - you thought I was somehow suspicious and you wanted to check my stuff. No biggie - had nothing to hide.
Reasons are because of health issues (radiation), it's a violation of privacy, and the company feels that pilots are already in control of the airplanes and should not have to be scanned since they have earned that position (this is what the company said). My husband has not yet had to refuse because not all airports are using them on every single passanger and not all airports are using them, they are just sitting in the corner. But 2 days ago in Charlotte NC, one line was using the body scanner and the other line was not. My husband not realizing this until he got up to the body scanner, put his stuff through the baggage scanner, then walked over to the other line and went through the metal detector. He said they looked at him but didn't say anything. They know why he did it. If he was to refuse the body scanner (which everyone has the right to refuse the body scanner) has to get a pat down. Which you also have the right to request a private room when they do the pat down.
My mom traveled to San Antonio Texas this week for business and yes during her pat down they felt under her bra with their fingers and underneath, also under her chest etc. Also felt in between her legs, two times from the front and two times from the back in her groin area. Also felt inside the rim of her pants in which she had to lift her shirt up enough for them to do so. She also traveled to Florida 2 weeks ago in which they did the same. She said she felt very violated. And they were not using the body scanners.
As far as the safety of people and our country, and especially the safety of my husband who travels and operates an airplane 5-6 days a week, I am the first person to do whatever is necessary to make sure that people are safe. But as far as body scans, they are scanning children as well. Small children are being scanned, I have a problem with that. And from my own personal experience with TSA in which my personal space and morals were violated in public in front of everyone INCLUDING male TSA workers who were watching the female TSA worker feel my crotch and put her hands over my chest and under my bra....I have a MAJOR problem with that. So to those who say that safety comes first and you would do this and that, I get it. But you may feel differently when a complete stranger sticks their hands in your crotch, over your chest, under your bra, and between your legs in public and others are watching....
For the supporters of these measures: do you think applying these rules to driving is acceptable? I'm pretty sure Timothy McVeigh drove a vehicle, not a plane, to the building he bombed.
If there were random car stops where your car was searched, it would suck, but you really shouldn't have anything to hide, so I'd do it. Maybe they would find even more bad guys that way, who knows.
They already have "random" stops to try to catch drunk drivers. Once I was in a line hundreds of cars long on a highway and every one was being stopped to check for drunk drivers. I guess that could have been an "unreasonable search" too, but overall we do what cops say, right? I had no problem with it (other than it taking so long to get through the line), because I had nothing to hide.
*shrug* to me driving is a variation of the same sort of thing. When I drive, it is my own personal vehicle that I'm in charge of operating. I take my license exam and agree to abide by the rules of the state I'm licensed in (and every other state for that matter). It would be inconvenient to have to be subject to random searches but if that was the protocol and I wanted the privilege of driving, I'd agree to it because that is how it worked. heck, I had my vehicle searched once on my way out of a parking ramp after a dentist appointment when, unbeknownst to me at the time, a bank robbery had happened and the suspect disappeared into the downtown skyway lunch crowd. It was scary and un-nerving to encounter the police like that but I hadn't robbed the bank so I had no problems with them asking me to get out of the car while they looked in every nook and cranny in the car and made sure I wasn't wearing a lovely shade of dye-pack.
You never know who the "bad guys" are anymore. They could be domestic or foreign, they could be wearing a bomb in their shorts, they could be carrying it in their shoe or just want to cause enough mayhem to send a message. They're constantly trying to find creative new ways to outsmart our systems and, unfortunately, I feel like we're 2 steps behind them in a lot of ways. If this is what it has come down to to achieve some level of security that the feds feel is appropriate, I guess it is what it is.
If they didn't make an advance in technology and, lets say for instance, a plane is hijacked and it was something they could have prevented with better technology and screening methods that they just chose not to put into place, can you imagine the backlash then?? An ounce of prevention... worth a lot in my view and I'm willing to be inconvenienced in the process.
I've been searched and have had my vehicle searched twice returning to Canada from the US. Granted it was done by Canadian Border Patrol. The first time when returning from Montana, my sister thought she has handed me her ID when infact it had gone down between the seats. They drove us into a garage and made us watch behind glass while they took out everything from the car, dumped our suitcases, made the Mr. go through his lap top then when they were all done and found my sisters ID between the seats said OK, you can put that all back together now. I assume they thought we were smuggling her across or maybe had kidnapped her, she was about 16 at the time.
The second time, coming back from Spokane, my ID (driver license) apparently came up positive for cocaine. Apparently they run it under a light and it showed up. So we got pulled into an inspection area and questioned about our supposed drug use, which neither of us of course do. So after denying it for like 20 minutes he finally says so how could it have gotten on there, i'm like look you've touched it, i've bought alcohol and cigarettes down here, we've been ID'ed in restaurants....appreantly that wasn't an answer he liked and decides a search is in order. We again get our suitcases dumped, all the surfaces in my car wiped down etc. Finally another border guard comes out with I am assuming a criminal record check. The guy searching us looks at it and with a very depressed face says I guess you guys are ok, get out of here and get a new ID.
So are they actually catching any real bad guys or just harassing people for the sake of it. I want my country and the skies to be save but I also want people to have basic rights and freedoms. I am willing to be subjected, albeit rather grudgingly, to a pat down but not groping/fondling as I said in my previous answer. I guess I'll have to wait though to see how I truly feel when we go to Vegas in February.
People get killed or kill others in vehicles everyday. Not because they are toting around C4 but because they are careless, distracted, intoxicated or other wise incompetant drivers. Heck, weather conditions kill people who drive. It's a slippery slope.
(sorry this became a novel)
I think these things are meaningless "security theater" at best, and hazardous at worst.
First off, will they deter terrorists? Absolutely not. A terrorist can pack enough explosives to take down a plane in body cavities. And even the enhanced searches are not going to check body cavities.
In fact, they may even make it easier for terrorists.The longer the security process lasts, the more people you get in one confined area inside the terminal. So the next terrorist doesn't have to blow up a plane--he could cause just as much damage by getting into the middle of the security line with an explosive and killing everyone around him.
Second, I am concerned about the health risks of the back scatter radiation. Whatever health risks there are will be multiplied in children who are still growing. At the same time, do I really want to be telling small children that, "No one gets to touch your private areas--well, no one besides the TSA"?
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I'm probably just beating a dead horse at this point, no one is going to change each other's mind, but your point about being 2 steps behind stuck out.
I absolutely agree that the US is two steps behind the terrorists as far as security. Unfortunately though, I don't think we'll ever get ahead of them unless we focus more on intelligence than these invasive screenings. All the terrorists need to do is go through the screenings a few times- and they learn the process, and therefore ways to get around it. These people are CRAZY. There is nothing they won't try, and it would be very difficult to "get ahead of them" on that front.
Not to mention, our security methods have mostly been implemented in response to terrorist actions anyway- i.e. after the shoe bomber, we take our shoes off; after the underwear bomber, we have machines that can see through our clothes. Yet, by the time our security is executed, the terrorists have already moved on to their next method. I can't imagine it will be long before some nut-job inserts explosives into his body. Then what? Will we have to have cavity searches before we fly? Will people be OK with that?
The government CANNOT continue down this path of doing anything it wants to its citizens in the name of security. The Constitution protects us from such measures.
I guess it just boils down to is whether people consider these measures to be "unreasonable" or not. I absolutely think having the choice between a nude image taken with concentrated radiation and a grope-fest that leaves travelers feeling violated and humiliated is "unreasonable." I'm not saying that there should be some "fly at your own risk" policy, but these new regulations absolutely go too far and need to be revisited and revised.
Amy, you make a very good point. A comment in an article I read over the weekend asked if the pro-invasive rules supporters are going to be first in line for the body cavity search when the butt bomber strikes. Quite amusing yet quite succint in getting to the point.
Like you said, there's going to be no convincing of the people who are on board (more than likely) and vice versa, but it's important to think about the overall impact this action will have on our civil liberties and all stretches of daily living.