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dulcemariamar1
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What do you think about this?
Why is Europe a Dirty Word?
Basically, the guy writes that it wouldnt be so horrible if America became more like Europe.
Re: What do you think about this?
Plus the arguments are usually so wrong. I have waited for Drs. in the US, then paid tons of money. I am so happy to have the NHS and private insurance I think it works well together. The insurance is low in cost because of the NHS otherwise it would be really expensive like it is in the US.
Plus if you lose your job you still have healthcare. Or you are not stuck in a job you hate due to having good benefits. My dad stayed in a job for 25 years for benefits. IT's actually not that great for the economy. People are afraid to start a small biz since they would have to leave a job etc.
Bio
I think America is the greatest country
so I'm biased. There are things it can improve on, but I don't want it to become like Europe.
As far as the NHS, I think its terrible. Yes, it is free, but I have had no good experiences. There is a reason the US healthcare costs more - its good! In the US, doctors can do what is best for the patient regardless of cost (most of the time). Here, doctors do what is cheapest. For example, doctors not giving medicine for pink eye because it goes away on its own after a week. When I had a miscarriage, they refused to give me the RH negative shot (I have a negative blood type and its a required shot in the US).
There's probably more I could write, but I need to go to bed.
I also was not a huge fan of the NHS when I lived there, and I say that as someone who has probably spent $15k this past year in medical expenses between my dd's birth, her surgery and dh's accident. It is all preference. Would I prefer to have the kind of medical care I get here at the (non)prices in the UK? Absolutely. But I have found, based on the 3 years I spent there, that the care we have received here has been more efficient and better.
However, it is all antecdotal, and I understand that. For every person who loves the NHS another hates it, and same with the US. I don't think the idea of social healthcare should be thrown out the window in the US, and I 1000% think anyone under the age of 18 should have free healthcare. Above that maybe it should be still something you have to pay, but who knows.
Anyway, just my thoughts
Just for arguments sake ...
The article lists some of the success Europe, but would those have happened if Europe hadn't "lived beyond it's means"? ie: Would Europeans have worked longer hours if they knew they were going to have to take on greater financial responsibility for themselves later on?
As for the US becoming European? Call me when the US gets 1:00-3:00 off every afternoon, plus the religious holidays and most of August.
Hey, wait a minute! All those holidays is probably WHY France worked 300+ less hours a year than Americans. They didn't really work less, they just weren't open for business at all.
ETA: OK, that was a bit on the rambling side. sorry.
well UK is part of 'Europe' as well though, and we sure didn't get 1-3pm off or August and we worked VERY long hours, same here in Oz - one country doesn't constitute 'Europe'.....
This is true, Europe is more than one country, but the article was quoting the Editorial Director of Le Monde and was giving stats of the US vs. France.
Since my British friends don't like to be referred to as European, I don't automatically lump the UK into Europe. (yes I understand there is debate over this)
Oh really?
http://www.nhs.uk/Conditions/Rhesus-disease/Pages/Prevention.aspx
It really pisses me off when people cite the NHS as a reason not to have single payer health care. It's a reason not to have 100% free for everyone care, but a very small means-tested fee for prescriptions and visits works very well. My prescription may not be free, but for a person earning over $40,000 a year $35 every three months is not unreasonable. It's going to stop me filling a script for antibiotics I don't need, but it's not going to stop me filling my insulin or blood pressure presciption.
actually Miss Know It All Knitty - MOST doctors do recommend that you get an RHD shot after miscarriage - which totally makes sense - its all about making sure you don't develop those antibodies
http://miscarriage.about.com/od/immediatemedicalconcerns/f/rhnegative.htm
of course, like the article says, the risk after miscarriage of developing the antibodies is small but it is STILL a risk - I would have been upset about not getting one too!
The article isn't just about the NHS, folks!
France is such an extreme example of what people think of as "Europe" that it bothers me when people use the French way of living, which we all know is overly-generous, as an example of why Europe doesn't work. No, that's why France doesn't work!
I thought this statistic in particular was very interesting:
If Europe was as anticapitalist as Americans assume, its companies would be collapsing. But there are 172 European corporations among the Fortune Global 500, compared with just 133 from the United States.
There are definitely pros and cons of both systems (at least, in my opinion). I have no idea how I would feel about the healthcare here in the NL if I didn't have private insurance...but I do, so I can't really comment. I do know that I was really NOT happy about walking around on a broken foot for 2 weeks because the doctor wouldn't take an x-ray of it (instead, felt that pushing on my toes was just as good and determined my foot definitively "not broken" and sent me on my merry way). However, once the x-ray was taken, I had fabulous care.
So yeah...I like the fact that healthcare here is so much cheaper, but I don't always think I get the same quality of care here as I did in the US.
The Dr told me that they don't give it until you're 12 weeks along. Before that, its not given at all. I know the risk is really small, but I'd rather have no risk at all!
Going to the European vs. American debate, Europe is a socialist state. In Europe, the government takes care of everything in peoples lives. It pays them for maternity leave, it pays them per child they have, it gives them education, healthcare, vacation days, cheap prescriptions, etc, etc. The government controls so much! What I think a government should do is protect its citizens and that's about it. I know I'm on the conservative end of the spectrum, but I really do believe that a government that does less and is smaller and less intrusive is best for its people. If the government has less regulations and taxes, people have more freedom to do whats best for themselves.
On a side note - do you know how much women make on maternity leave here? I had no clue! Depending on how long you've been with the company, the company itself will pay up to 90% of your pay for 6 months. The government pays around 500 pounds a month for 39 weeks. Then, you get 80 pounds a month per child until the kid is 18 years old. And these amounts are based on one British friend, so its possible they aren't completely accurate.
ITA.
Every country is different but it seems when people talk about Europe what they are really are talking about is France. At the end of the day, I am happy with the public health care system but I also have private insurance. The best feeling is knowing that I wont have to go in debt for a medical problem. I always buy some type of insurance when I go back home but it is kind of scary thinking that something could happen during my vacation which would mean I would have to pay thousands of $ to get basic health care.
Wouldn't you consider this the government "protecting its citizens?" I know lots of women in the US who would have loved to be there for there the first 6 months of their child's life, but they wouldn't have had a job at the end of that time. Let alone the fact that they couldn't afford to support that child if they went without pay for so long.
Admittedly I don't have kids, but I really don't think I would be up for going back to work the day after giving birth. But the US government doesn't mandate any paid maternity leave, so apparently they think it's a perfectly fine idea. It doesn't really sound like the government is protecting my best interests.
Or maybe by "protecting its citizens" you meant with tanks and guns. In that case, we'll just have to agree to disagree.
The US government provides job protected leave for up to 12 weeks a year under the FMLA act. Is it paid? No, but that's where your personal responsibility comes in to play. If you don't have adequate savings to maintain your lifestyle without that income then you should have short-term disability insurance - in case you're hit by a bus or have a baby. Should you have to take personal responsibility for those events? Well that's the crux of the argument, isn't it?
As far as the article goes, I despise articles that lump the entire continent of Europe and compare them to the US. You think anyone is thinking of Ukraine when they're referencing the "European" system and how much better or worse it is than the US?
Haha. Very true. And I also have to roll my eyes whenever anyone I know in the States starts talking about "health care in Europe."
For my part, I love the German health care system and I'm on state insurance. The complaints people make about the system are basically that people with private insurance get into non-emergency specialist appointments faster (studies have shown it's true, but the wait is on average only 2 weeks longer, and waits in the US are no shorter), and that now they have to make a copay for dr's visits. Let me clarify. They have to pay 10? / quarter if they see a doctor, and that then covers all doctors appointments (excluding dentist and optometrist. No clue why) for the rest of the quarter. So essentially, the complaints they make about their system are on points that I think are even worse in the US.
Paying their citizens to have children is Germany's way of trying to save their whole social system since the birth rate is going down. I don't know how effective it is, but I am enjoying reaping the benefits while it lasts. DH and I can split up to 3 years of parental leave from work with our job guaranteed when we go back. Her first 14 months whichever of us stays home gets 66% of their previous net salary. In addition, we get 165? / month for her until she's 27. Yes, that's right. 27 years old, not months. And starting with the third child it's even higher because then you aren't just ensuring the next generation of workers for you and your SO, but also for someone else.
I once had a girl from Bolivia in an English class I was teaching, and she asked what the birth rate was in the US. I told her and she said, "Wow! That's a lot higher than Germany! Do you get even more money for children there?" When I explained that in the US we don't get anything except tax breaks, she kind of looked at me like either 1) I hadn't actually understood her question, or 2) I didn't actually have a clue. I think it really says something about a culture if the people think the only rational reason to have children is for the money the government gives you (for her I don't know if that would be the Bolivian or the German culture, since she had been living here for a while).
As someone that is not American I hope you don't mind me asking, but what makes America so great? I mean I like the country and all, but please sell it to me on why it is the greatest country.
I am going to be harsh but most of you are looking at your own little belly button. And most of you are financially priviledged.
I don't even know where to start. For those who don't know me, I am French living in the US. To the person who said French people don't work between 1pm and 3pm, that's pure BS. You don't know what you're talking about and please give details about those situations. If you do business with a French company, call at 7pm, someone will be at the office. People start around 9am and are in their office well after 7pm. Also, saying that French people work 300 hours less than Americans doesn't mean anything. Productivity is the key. And France ranks in the top 3 for productivity. Now that I've been in the US for almost 4 years, I keep hearing people having to work 60+ hours just to make ends meet. How many people in the US do you know with 2 or even 3 jobs? I know a ton. People work very hard in the US not because they like it. That's because they have no other choice. Could that explain why Americans work more hours than the French? Probably.
Also, it's not true US doctors will do every tests possible. They ALWAYS ask if your insurance will cover it or if you can afford it. When I fractured my meniscus, the GP asked if I could afford the surgery before we took the next step. He told me a lot of people don't do it because of the cost. I have good and cheap insurance and I paid 3K out of pocket for the whole thing (total cost was 15K). If I had been in France, I would have had the same level of care as in the US for 0?. Is the waiting time for an MRI in France longer than the US? Yes but that's probably because everyone who needs it gets it. People who can't afford and MRI in the US simply don't get it so yes, less waiting time. FYI, the MRI for my knee was over 2K. I paid $800 out of pocket. That's a lot of money to work in a budget. Let alone without insurance.
There are goods and bads in both systems. I've seen some horrible situations in the US. Sure, it's easy to say you should save some money if one day the sh!!!t hits the fan. It's easier if you make something like $50K/year. But what if you make minimum wage or just above? My point is, it's easier to face accidents in life when you are financially stable. If you are weak financially, it can go bad very quickly.
I'll stop for now.
Dutch healthcare is private. It is government regulated meaning the govrrnent decides cost but you are covered by private insurance.
I agree totally with LandOBiscuit that it is, in theory, very wise and prudent and responsible to save money and take charge of your own destiny in terms of health/retirement/family leave, etc. But to assume that that is always POSSIBLE or that when it isn't possible you dont' have the 'right' to certain things is an extremely privileged way of thinking.
Also, as pp said FMLA is in no way far-reaching enough. At my last job in the US I worked for a company with less than 50 workers (that was withitn 75 miles of my home address) and therefore would not have qualified for any family leave for any of the reasons covered in other circumstances. Perhaps moving 76 miles away from my job would have been smarter.
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I agree with LandObiscuit. I'm in France and H takes a one hour lunch break and is usually home after 18h30, working 9-18h00 which is the same as in the us those who work 8-17h00 every day.
In the US I hardly ever had insurance, even when working 30-40 hours a week. I couldn't afford it. There are plenty of people who cannot afford it. Or even with crappy insurance, they cannot afford healthcare. I suppose poor people shouldn't breed then, since childbirth and childcare cost so much.
There are good things in France and good things in the US. 'Europe' shouldn't be an insult. It is a different and equally valid system of living as in the US. If I am not mistaken, it isn't just France (Europe) that is having problems in the global economy. I honestly think the US should be more like Europe and Europe a bit more like the US. They are both great ideas, but moderation is the key.
DH and I have had numerous discussions about healthcare in the US vs here in Germany. Sure the US is the place to go if something bad happens to you, but only if you can afford it. No health insurance, then you?ll be going to a second-rate hospital or creating so much debt that you?ll never live to pay it off. I worked in a debt collections office for medical bills once, and the debt was staggering. The family that got cancer and had 125,000 dollars to pay off...yeah, I?m sure they?ll make that happen working minimum wage with no skills.
In short, to quote DH "so I can have an outstanding level of care for a few privilleged, or very good care for all, which would you pick?"
Awesome quote Mr. Glitterfarts!
Also, Ukyankee - clearly you should have just had the leg removed instead of repaired. Much cheaper.
My sister lives in the States and doesn't have insurance - $87,000 in debt for emergency gallbladder surgery. While she was writhing around in pain on a gurney in the emergency room a hospital administrator was quizzing her about her assets. What kind of car do you have? Do you have any stocks or bonds? Savings? Property... what a horrible experience for her. Yeesh. Her and her husband are living in Austin and trying to get into independent film making - not a lot of affordable insurance options for them at the moment.
You'll never hear me knock the NHS again after what happened to me, I'm still absolutely stunned at the level of care that I've received and continue to receive here. Stunned. My GP called me yesterday just to see how I was doing. Seriously. I passed out at work, called my GP and was able to see her within 30 minutes at her office. Amazing. I've got my GP and 3 different specialists and their teams, consultants, professors, etc. all working to fix me back up - it's amazing. Even better than what I would receive in Canada.
Now, sure I'll moan about a few things becuase nothing is perfect - the surgical scar on my neck is hideous, but the trade off is that I can move the right side of my face and no longer have to end each sentence with Yarr me Hearties. So I'm good. The food in the hospital was rather icky poo, but I lost weight. Yay! An appointment at the eye hospital takes an entire afternoon of waiting in a room packed with 60 senior citizens that smell of age, despair and vinegar - but by the time I've left I've been thoroughly checked out, poked, probed, talked to and treated and I leave feeling very satisfied with the level of care that I've received.
And add me to those that roll my eyes at the "America is the best country in the world!" crap so hard that I nearly hurt myself.
Chronically hilarious - you'll split your stitches!
I wrote a book! Bucket list CHECK!
http://notesfortheirtherapist.blogspot.co.uk
Agh, the nest ate my post hours ago.
Totally agree with LandoBiscuits and glitterfart's DH! Also, I am 10193837 percent pro government controlled healthcare like the NHS or the system we have in NL, where it is semi-private, but mandatory for everyone and the prices are regulated. And I think this kind of healthcare would be a positive for both sides of the isle, no matter if you're ultra liberal (everyone deserves to be taken care of whether they have money or not) or extremely conservative (employees are more productive when they're healthy).
Also, regarding the hours working and productivity, there have been numbers of studies on workplace productivity in first world countries, and yes, the US usually ranks (among) the highest in amount of hours worked per year, but that same US usually ranks (among) the lowest when they look at actual productive hours.
Lastly, specifically to amwallace, I take offense at your 'Europe is socialist' comment. I suggest you actually buy a dictionary, as you apparently have no idea what the definition of socialism is. Socialism talks about the ownership of (the production) of goods, not healthcare.
What most countries in Europe have is called a welfare state, look it up, it doesn't mean that everyone is, or gets to be, on welfare, but that people who are absolutely unable to take care of themselves, don't have to resort to begging, living on the street and eating out of dumpsters, like many do in the US. Also, it means that the government makes sure people have equal opportunities to start with, and that whether or not you succeed will be on your own merit, not depending on which family you were born into.
Honestly, I think it would work VERY well with the American mindset of taking care of your own destiny by working hard, if only people would stop being so damn ignorant about it because they happened to have been born into a family that was wealthy enough.
Oh, and for the record, if you want to call countries/continents socialist, here's the definition, so you can use it correctly next time. http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/socialism
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What I'm looking forward to in 2012:
Eating our way through (northern) Italy on vacation
<a href="http://www.thenest.com/?utm_source=ticker&utm_medium=HTML&utm_campaign=tickers" title="Home DJust so we are clear here not everyone who is wealthy was born into it, some people got that very way from working incredibly hard. And not everyone who was born into it relies on their wealth to get them through life. Let's not make blanket statements about this as well.
I was surprised about the comments about France, if anything I would think Spain would be the country that would be mentioned since they are 'known' for having an afternoon siesta (is this still true?)
I think on this board the general feeling is that nationalized healthcare is a good thing, so those of us who have not had good experiences are reluctant to share that. I was not a fan of the NHS and I will admit it. I like my healthcare in the US (and we paid out of pocket for it for 3 years) and have no shame in that. Do I think the US is the best country in the world? No. But I also don't think liking your country is a bad thing either.