DH will graduate from DU law school in May. He goes to the evening PT program while working FT during the day. We are planning on moving back to Texas where he will practice and he isn't ever planning on practicing in CO.
He is studying to become a Patent Attorney. Because he was a computer science major, he is lacking some science credits in his undergrad degree. (Long story but there are some ways around this.) He is going with Option C: Taking Physics I & II and Chemistry I & II from the equivalent of Metro State in Texas. This totally sucks but there's no way around it. Computer science majors have to squeeze their way into this area because it's usually engineering majors. No big deal.
So - He is planning on accomplishing this and taking the TX bar and Patent bar by 2014. This is news to me. I thought he would have everything done by May 2013 at the latest. I think he's procrastinating and he's upset because he works very, very hard and doesn't think I realize how much work all of this will be. It's ultimately his decision but please tell me if you think his way or my way is best. I just want advice from people who have taken the bar and have an idea of how difficult it is to study for. I'll share this with him but will ultimately respect his timeframe and wishes.
Oh - he would be taking a major paycut to be a regular attorney or a patent agent so he wants to get his old job back in Dallas as a Software Developer (which is looking likely) until all of this is done THEN enter the law field. He is the sole provider so he will maintain a FT job (as always) through all of this.
My plan:
MPRE: 3/17/12 (He'll need to start studying ASAP. Is this that hard to pass??)
Graduate: 5/19/12
Bar Review Course (BarBri): Begins around 5/20/12. Runs through mid-July. (I guess he will need to decide before all this whether he's staying in CO or going immediately down to TX since I'm assuming this isn't an online course). The Kaplan course runs 5/14-7/23.
Move (possibly) to TX in summer 2012. Depends on when our house sells but I think it will sell in less than 90 days. I was a Realtor for years so I know how to show a house really well and have always had good luck with this.
June/July: Start new (old) job. He may go down to Texas early and stay with friends or in an extended stay hotel until our house sells and I come down with the kids. We'll obviously need to buy a new house in the middle of all of this.
7/24-7/26/12 - Take TX bar exam. (He doesn't think this is enough time to study but he will have graduated on 5/19.)
Fall Semester 2012 - Take Physics I & Chemistry I at local college in Dallas (UTD)
Spring Semester 2013 - Take Physics II & Chemistry II at UTD
Summer-ish? 2013: Take the Patent Bar (reportedly VERY difficult and much harder than the regular Bar).
Practicing law as a Patent Attorney in 2013.
So, I'm asking a lot but I think it's do-able? Am I insane? DH thinks so. He doesn't think I'm leaving him enough study time considering his FT job and our upcoming move.
Oh - it would be easier if we weren't moving in the middle of all of this but DH hates his job more than a person can possibly hate his job. He flat out told me he wants to quit ASAP. He loved his old job in Dallas and is in touch with his old boss.
Here's DH's timeline...
Graduate: 5/19/12
MPRE: 8/10/12
Move to Dallas: Summer 2012
TX Bar Exam: February 2013
Physics I & Chemistry I: Probably Summer School - 2013
Physics II & Chemistry II: Fall 2013
Patent Bar: Sometime in (early?) 2014
Practicing law as a Patent Attorney by 2014.
Am I insane or do you think he's spreading it all out too much. PT law school took four years. He's the one doing all the work but I'm at home with our DD (age 2) and DS (age 3) all day and night and I'm kind of eager to finish up this part of our lives. Plus, I'm looking forward to his income as a Patent Attorney!
Sorry this got so long. I truly appreciate any advice or insight.
Re: Lawyer Nesties, Come In! (VERY LONG - advice needed)
I agree more with your plan. If I were him, I would take the regular bar ASAP after law school. He will never, at any future point in his career, know as much law as he does when he first gets out of law school. Get that out of the way and then he can mentally dump the info he'll never use again as a patent atty (criminal, family, estate planning, etc...) Once that's done, THEN he can focus his efforts on getting through the other classes and the patent bar. And you don't have to be moved to TX for him to take the exam. He can go out there just for the test.
I can also see why he would want a one semester break but I would probably choose to take that break in the fall of 2012, after the bar exam has been completed.
I was hoping you would chime in! Thank you! (Others, please add your two cents, too.)
WonderRed (or anyone else) - is the MPRE hard? Is it worth stressing over? He's in his final semester now and he has three classes. I think he can start studying but he's quick to remind me that he's also working on his public service requirement so he's doing periodic research for a local firm (all online) and a weekly conference call.
Is it feasible to squeeze this in? MOST people pass it on the first try, right?
How long did you devote to studying for the bar? Was it as horrible was we think it will be? FWIW, DU's pass rate is really good.
I completely agree with Wonderred. I took two consecutive bar exams and it was much easier since I just finished law school.
If he's taking the MPRE he should have taken or be in professional responsibility. I would take the MPRE sooner rather than later for the same reason. I have a use-it-or-lose-it bar exam and I need to retake the MPRE. If he decides to take it and wants someone to study with, let me know. The first time I took it, I spent just a few weeks studying. It's not a difficult exam at all.
Well... I had to retake the MPRE so I'm not the one to ask. I studied my ass off for it the first time and got one point below what Colorado required. The second time, two weeks after the bar exam, my brain was fried from the bar and I didn't study at all and I blew the thing out of the water. It's not hard, per se, just different. Most people pass it the first time with minimal effort.
I worked full time while studying for the bar exam and did a self study computer prep course with MicroMash. I spent about 3 hours a night studying after work, plus 8-9 hours a day on Sat/Sun, and took two weeks off before the bar to study full time (but I was single with no kids at the time) and blew the bar out of the water. I was 99.99% sure I passed when I walked out of the test but, what shows up on the essay questions is luck of the draw and my year the topics were all things that I excelled in. I could have been screwed if they had tested heavily on the corporate and commercial law subjects.
I know DH took it very seriously and studied non-stop after he graduated in May (DH passed first try). Some of his friends did not take it so seriously and didn't pass on the first try. I wouldn't under-estimate the amount of prep and studying it takes- there would be nothing worse than not studying hard enough and not passing and having to face it again.
WR is right- he'll never know more of the law than he does at graduation and after studying until the bar exam in the summer, so he should get the basic parts of the bar over with then.
There is no reason he shouldn't be able to get through chem and physics in the same semester, but usually physics and chemistry courses each have a 4 hour lab attached (at least they did everywhere I've ever taught/been to school). Is he going to be able to do both of them at night while working FT?
DD -- 5YO
DS -- 3YO
Pesky - if the goody-two-shoes answers were correct, very few of us would have clients!
Great question - and I don't know. I am sort of clueless how all of this is going to work. The Chemistry/Physics undergrad courses totally suck. Certain universities are accredited and others are not. Unfortunately for DH, Oklahoma State University is not. Guess what else isn't ... the University of Texas (at Austin)!!! It's insane. There's no rhyme or reason to it. So, he absolutely has to squeeze in Physics and Chemistry (labs and all) at some point.
His old job in Dallas was really great about flexing his time. If he needs to leave for a few hours 1-2 times a week, it should be okay. He can make up that time later in the week. His current job would never allow something like that.
I've sent him this thread and told him to refresh every hour or so to see what everyone is saying. He's not happy with me right now but I think he's fully capable of getting it done in my timeframe. It IS stressful and it will be a lot of work but I think spreading this all out for so long isn't going to work in his favor.
If we absolutely HAD to, we could have him quit his current job (as long as his Dallas job had a firm start date) and he could take a month off. It would mean pulling money out of savings that we were not planning on touching but it is feasible (although not desired).
He will not be able to study for the bar at all before this semester ends. There is no time at all. I think he would definitely need and want to take some sort of BarBri or Kaplan course that ends right before the exam. I think that statistically, he should pass the first time given his DU degree and the success rate of those study courses. I completely understand that you don't want to take a three day exam all for nothing, however. That would be awful. I want him to knock out the bar so he can start studying for the patent bar since, by all accounts, that one is not fun at all.
Chris, no advice but just want to say the thought of you moving to texas makes me miss you already:-(
Awww - you're so sweet!! I have settled in very nicely here so I'm getting sad but I really love Dallas. We're beyond excited but I'm going to bawl like a baby when we actually pull out of town. :-(
Who does the accreditation for the chemistry/physics courses? ABA? I'm surprised UT Austin or OSU are not on their list. UT Austin has a top-notch Chemistry grad program, and I'm sure their undergrad classes are good as well. If he ever took chem or physics as an undergrad it would be worth checking to make absolutely sure his school is ruled out. CHEM and PHYS 101 tend to cover pretty much the same info no matter where you take them.
No - they care whether his Computer Science undergrad degree came from an accredited university. OSU (and UT) aren't. Some of the most random schools are. All of this would be moot if he had majored in Electrical Engineering or whatever but CS degrees have to meet certain requirements. DH is required to take these stupid Chem/Physics courses in order to even sit for the patent bar. Oh well. It has to be done.
I don't want you to leave either.
Oh - DH is reading our handy-dandy thread here and he wants me to clarify ...
"The USPTO certifies the program of study. However, the USPTO heavily relies on ABET certification for the programs. Computer Science at both OSU and UT are not ABET certified, however, their Mechanical Engineering, Civil Engineering etc. all are ABET certified. NOT "accredited." That makes it sound like an online degree."
He's conveniently ignoring the other parts of our thread. ;-) I'll discuss with him tonight but I agree that he should attempt my timeline and if it doesn't work out, he can always fall back on his timeline.
I havent read the other responses so sorry if this is duplicative. My ideal scenario would be this:
Take MPRE in March - you dont really need a ton of prep time for this. I spent 2-3 days leading up to it doing a ton of practice exams and I ended up only missing one question. In addition, I believe you can take this test over and over again so might as well try to get it out of the way now.
Take the Bar in the state where he will practice summer 2012. BarBri offers a "home study" package that I know some people like. I went to the class and it is state-specific (so if hes going to take the TX bar, he would have to be in TX). I made studing my job from mid-May until the test (ie I studied 9-5 every weekday and some weekends as the test got closer). I knew that stuff so well but you do forget it quickly. I recommend working as little as possible during this time. The way I see it is that living without an income for 2.5 months is better than having to live with a reduced income for a much longer time.
As for the job, etc. both my sister and I do a significant amount of IP law, although I dont do any patent law. Is there any way he can begin work at a firm that has a patent litigation department but work in other aspects of IP until he passes the Patent Bar? Patent litigation is such a limited aspect of IP law and its really the only reason you need to pass the Patent Bar. My concern would be that most firms like to take people who were either summer associates or who are fresh out of school. If he has a few years before any legal experience, it may look like he couldnt get a legal job, not that he was waiting for the kind he wanted. In this economy, with so many qualified lawyers out of work, Id be extremely hesitant to take that risk. Plus, a law firm might pay for his classes, etc. while he's there.
Lastly, I have never taken the patent bar so I may be off but my sister and many close friends have and I have never heard anyone say it was terribly difficult. Most people I know took it during school (since they had the requisite courses) and said it was significantly easier than either the bar or the mpre. Hopefully, this means that this part wont be as big of an issue when the time arises.
GL!
I'll ask him again but my understanding is that he would be working as a "Patent Agent" if he hasn't passed the bar. I suppose he could take a lawyer job that does IP work even if he hasn't passed the patent bar. I believe he would be taking a significant pay cut compared to to his current software job if he worked as a patent agent so he hasn't considered it. That's a good point about other types of law, however. I'll bring this up to him. I *think* he'll say that the income will be comparable but, as you pointed out, the resume booster/experience might get him more money in the long run.
He is going to be in a somewhat unusual category of people/attorneys. Thankfully, Patent Attorneys are more rare than a "regular" attorney, so at least there's that. He will be coming into the IP field with about 12 years experience in the software industry. He's praying that that will get him noticed vs. a 25 year old with no real job experience but maybe has a recent internship. My uncle is an attorney and he assured us this would be of a lot of interest to certain firms. Ideally, DH wants to be in-house counsel so if he went to work for his old company again, perhaps that may work out. That's another long story, however! I will bring all of this up to him.
I'm happy to hear that you don't think the patent bar will be as difficult as we think. I'm going to have DH read this entire thread then talk to me about all of this tonight. I really don't see the point in doing his time frame. I think the worst that can happen is he flunks the bar. Oh well ... he'll take it again in February. It would be devastating but what if he passed!?! He is very frustrated with me right now so hopefully he'll see my (and all of your) points. Our upcoming move is really what's freaking him out; however, it will be back to what we consider our home town so it's not as scary as a totally new place. It WILL be a stressful time but I think he can just dedicate himself to a study schedule and force himself to get it over with. Hell, I can take care of selling this house, coordinating the movers, purchasing the new home, and getting us moved in. That's my forte! I would never be annoyed if he couldn't help me with anything at that time.
Thank you all so much for your advice.
As someone with a BS who debated taking the patent bar, but would have needed additional course work to sit for the exam, I understand the desireability of patent attorneys. Although many patent lawyers have been in their respective fields for years prior to law school, there are not many people who qualify for and take the patent bar - it is definitely a huge plus to be able to prosecute a patent. However, I will say that I find the difference in pay to be fairly unsubstantial (maybe I just got lucky), particularly when you consider that I work M-F 9-5 and many patent attorneys I know dont remember what their kids look like
Any chance he could go back to his old job but in the legal department?
His dream is to be in-house counsel for his old company since he knows their product inside and out. Unfortunately, they keep their lawyers out of their Oregon office so he would be a first for Dallas. I do think they should consider it, however. I highly doubt any of their patent attorneys know the software side of their product as well as DH.
DH doesn't want to be in the courtroom, really. There is a lot more money there but he really wants to only consider in-house counsel positions where he would work 9-5 and golf a lot. Working that much (even with a lot of money) is not appealing to him.
I guess he really could consider going to work for a regular firm that does IP work, too, after passing the bar. Perhaps he could skip his old job altogether.
These are all things we need to discuss. DH and I really don't fight at all but he's frustrated with me over this. I want to sit down and talk rationally about all of this ... until he sees that I'm right. ha!
He will say that most of you don't know what it's like to work 40+ hours per week and provide for your family of four, in addition to going to law school and studying for and passing the bar. I understand that he has a difficult task ahead but since I don't work, I really devote my life to making his life easier. I can easily step it up for him. I keep a very clean house but I can make sure I keep a very clean and QUIET (empty) house for him if he needs me to. Also, I usually cook dinner but I can make sure I never miss cooking. Just wifey things like that in order to be supportive of him during this insane time. Regarding the move, I was the one who completely packed and unpacked last time. I can do that again and coordinate the Realtor stuff so he isn't stressed by that.
Do you hear that, DH?! :-) We can do this! I believe in you!!! xoxo
I'm with your DH on the no litigation thing. I actually practice corporate transactional law (which inevitablly has tons of IP) and I wouldnt know how to litigate if I tried! I think one huge bonus about transactional law is that it is often much more predictable.
GL to both you and DH - it can be tough (for both of you) no matter what path you take but it sounds like youre willing to find the right fit and thats what will make it work in the end!!
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