Stir the pot post

mrsjanks

Did you hear about this?

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/05/19/texas-sonogram-abortion-law_n_864516.html 

trickeytricky

Hitting on this comment, "ensuring Texas are fully informed when considering such an important decision"

I still feel it's a personal choice, and one that isn't my right to make for another, but I do agree with being fully aware and informed before you make that choice. It also should be considered medically necessary to have one done before having an abortion, as to not have a procedure that is unnecessary. (ie.) I wouldn't go ahead with wisdom tooth extraction without first consulting with a doctor and having an x-ray done to make sure there are wisdom teeth in there. Then I get to make the choice to go ahead and have the procedure, that's my right - to say yes or no.

Not that a fetus is like a wisdom tooth.

Beth&Derek

Wow.

I hadn't heard about this.

So, women MUST get a sonogram before they can get an abortion and they can turn away from the monitor, but they MUST listen to the doctor's description of the embryo/fetus unless they've been raped. Do those poor women need to prove they were raped in order to avoid hearing the desciption of the embryo? Ugh.

The Big D

"Under the measure, women will be offered the option of hearing the heartbeat and seeing the sonogram image, which they may decline. But the woman's doctor must describe the image, explaining the size of the embryo or fetus and the presence of organs and limbs.

In certain cases, including those involving rape and incest victims or serious fetal abnormalities, the woman could decline to hear the description of the sonogram."

So unless you're a victim, as the state of Texas has defined it, you have to make a difficult decision even more difficult?  REALLY?  I find this very aggravating.

Not to mention logistics... I'm willing to bet most women do not have flexible enough bosses/schedules to make two appointments within 24 hours for the doctor.  Not to mention this will probably involve sending a sonogram picture home with the woman, etc. 

I think if they're going to do this, they also need to describe, in detail, the financial costs, physical costs, and emotional costs of having a baby, particularly if you are not in a significant relationship with the other parent. They need to describe, in detail, morning sickness, stretch marks, hemorrhoids, inability to sleep during and after pregnancy, etc etc.  They need to describe the risks you're taking with your own health by carrying and birthing a child. They also need to describe, in detail, how draining it is to be a parent.  They also need to describe, in detail, the emotional and psychological costs to a child raised by a parent who is not equipped to have a child. I could go on and on.

The Big D

I just wanted to add that this was my favorite part:

"During debate on the House floor in March, Democratic state Representative Carol Alvarado wielded a trans-vaginal probe used for sonograms early in pregnancy. "This is government intrusion at its best,'' she said during that debate."

Amen sistah. Amen.

 

Beth&Derek

The Big

I think if they're going to do this, they also need to describe, in detail, the financial costs, physical costs, and emotional costs of having a baby, particularly if you are not in a significant relationship with the other parent. They need to describe, in detail, morning sickness, stretch marks, hemorrhoids, inability to sleep during and after pregnancy, etc etc.  They need to describe the risks you're taking with your own health by carrying and birthing a child. They also need to describe, in detail, how draining it is to be a parent.  They also need to describe, in detail, the emotional and psychological costs to a child raised by a parent who is not equipped to have a child. I could go on and on.

Oh, but the people who are putting this into action aren't thinking about those things. Well, until those women who were guilted into continuing the pregnancies are on welfare. Then those people will complain about those "lazy" people living off the government.

The Big D

Beth&Derek:

The Big

I think if they're going to do this, they also need to describe, in detail, the financial costs, physical costs, and emotional costs of having a baby, particularly if you are not in a significant relationship with the other parent. They need to describe, in detail, morning sickness, stretch marks, hemorrhoids, inability to sleep during and after pregnancy, etc etc.  They need to describe the risks you're taking with your own health by carrying and birthing a child. They also need to describe, in detail, how draining it is to be a parent.  They also need to describe, in detail, the emotional and psychological costs to a child raised by a parent who is not equipped to have a child. I could go on and on.

Oh, but the people who are putting this into action aren't thinking about those things. Well, until those women who were guilted into continuing the pregnancies are on welfare. Then those people will complain about those "lazy" people living off the government.

EXACTLY!!!!!!!!  It drives me insane!  Our welfare system, as it stands, cannot be sustained, so what should we do?  Create more single mothers who need the welfare system in order to live!  But of course!

Seriously, what they're doing is not even close to creating an informed decision.  The fact that they're creating this garbage under the guise of "informed decision" makes me want to vomit.

MrsJaay

The Big

Beth&Derek:

The Big

I think if they're going to do this, they also need to describe, in detail, the financial costs, physical costs, and emotional costs of having a baby, particularly if you are not in a significant relationship with the other parent. They need to describe, in detail, morning sickness, stretch marks, hemorrhoids, inability to sleep during and after pregnancy, etc etc.  They need to describe the risks you're taking with your own health by carrying and birthing a child. They also need to describe, in detail, how draining it is to be a parent.  They also need to describe, in detail, the emotional and psychological costs to a child raised by a parent who is not equipped to have a child. I could go on and on.

Oh, but the people who are putting this into action aren't thinking about those things. Well, until those women who were guilted into continuing the pregnancies are on welfare. Then those people will complain about those "lazy" people living off the government.

EXACTLY!!!!!!!!  It drives me insane!  Our welfare system, as it stands, cannot be sustained, so what should we do?  Create more single mothers who need the welfare system in order to live!  But of course!

Seriously, what they're doing is not even close to creating an informed decision.  The fact that they're creating this garbage under the guise of "informed decision" makes me want to vomit.

I agree.

We're also obviously all dumb emotional women that need someone to help us see clearly b/c we surely couldn't make informed decisions without the government's insistence that we check out all of our options.

Beth&Derek

The Big

I just wanted to add that this was my favorite part:

"During debate on the House floor in March, Democratic state Representative Carol Alvarado wielded a trans-vaginal probe used for sonograms early in pregnancy. "This is government intrusion at its best,'' she said during that debate."

Amen sistah. Amen.

 

haha...right? Sounds pretty intrusive to me! Coming from a political party that tends to be very concerned about the government being intrusive, this is the total opposite of what they supposedly stand for.

MrsAllieH

Unless I missed it, the following question went unanswered in the article: who is responsible for the cost of the sonogram? Is the government going to pay for it? Because, from what I understand, they are not cheap, and I imagine many of the women choosing abortion are doing so at least in part because of the financial burden associated with having a child and/or lack of health insurance.

I know that having a child is still way more expensive than a sonogram, but if you are unable to afford several thousand bucks (? Just guessing, never paid for one) for a sonogram, the government is essentially barring a certain segment of women from having an abortion based on their income.

The Big D

MrsAllieH:

Unless I missed it, the following question went unanswered in the article: who is responsible for the cost of the sonogram? Is the government going to pay for it? Because, from what I understand, they are not cheap, and I imagine many of the women choosing abortion are doing so at least in part because of the financial burden associated with having a child and/or lack of health insurance.

I know that having a child is still way more expensive than a sonogram, but if you are unable to afford several thousand bucks (? Just guessing, never paid for one) for a sonogram, the government is essentially barring a certain segment of women from having an abortion based on their income.

That's a good point.  My insurance (as I'm a very fortunate person) paid for mine, but I imagine its probably at least $100. Which can be a huge financial burden on a person. 

I would certainly hope that if its required, then its on the government's bill.  I don't know how Texas' budget is doing, but I'm going to guess its hurting in one way or another like every other state.  So...yeah, definitely another thing about this to make one's blood boil a little.

Jill420791

This is stupid. Again men making laws for women. If you don't want the baby why in the world should be forced to look at and hear it's heart beat? Seriously what do they think they are going do  change a person's mind to keep their kid and then what watch it grow up to resent it ? This is a horrible horrible thing to be signed. It's a personal choice whether a woman wants to have a baby or not seems to me they are just trying to guilt women into not having the abortion. Disgraceful.

UTRachel84

Ugh, stupid law. I am very pro choice and this disgusts me to no end. Why should this decision be made more difficult? No one (mother, father, families, society) should have to bear the cost (emotional or monetary) of an unwanted child because someone was forced to hear a description of a fetus and could not go through with their decision. Roe vs. Wade gave women the right to chose, making it more difficult through a law passed by one man is way overstepping

trickeytricky

I hate abortion debates, they fire me up and at the same time I feel like I shouldnt be a part of them because I will never be in a position where it directly effects my body. FWIW I am pro choice, but as stated above would like more things in place that put some tug on personal responsibility, this heat of the moment bull *** excuse pisses me off. So, I feel the need to argue the other side.I am also curious how many women, once they become mothers change their stance or at least waiver once they have a kid of their own? While you all want to say that to be fully informed the stress of parenting, etc. also needs to be discussed, then what about the women who dont resent the kid, but regret the choice 10 years later, shouldn't those issues then be made? There is an entire emotional ride that goes with having and not having one, one isnt any easier than the other.Also I love how you all make it sound like ever teen mother is "bad" and that this choice is only being made by them, not 30 year old women who sleep around and dont want a kid messing up their routine, for example. My mother was 18 when she had me, she was kicked out of her house, worked a low paying job, got no support from my father and was never on welfare or working the system in a way that would upset tax payers. So making that choice harder doesnt seem bad to me, if you feel guilted or invaded maybe you werent old enough to have sex or you were doomed to have emotional issues regardless if you said yes or no.Ps. Tablet typing sucks

The Big D

trickeytricky:

I hate abortion debates, they fire me up and at the same time I feel like I shouldnt be a part of them because I will never be in a position where it directly effects my body. FWIW I am pro choice, but as stated above would like more things in place that put some tug on personal responsibility, this heat of the moment bull *** excuse pisses me off. So, I feel the need to argue the other side.I am also curious how many women, once they become mothers change their stance or at least waiver once they have a kid of their own? While you all want to say that to be fully informed the stress of parenting, etc. also needs to be discussed, then what about the women who dont resent the kid, but regret the choice 10 years later, shouldn't those issues then be made? There is an entire emotional ride that goes with having and not having one, one isnt any easier than the other.Also I love how you all make it sound like ever teen mother is "bad" and that this choice is only being made by them, not 30 year old women who sleep around and dont want a kid messing up their routine, for example. My mother was 18 when she had me, she was kicked out of her house, worked a low paying job, got no support from my father and was never on welfare or working the system in a way that would upset tax payers. So making that choice harder doesnt seem bad to me, if you feel guilted or invaded maybe you werent old enough to have sex or you were doomed to have emotional issues regardless if you said yes or no.Ps. Tablet typing sucks

That's a very good point.

And I didn't mean that to say every teen mom is bad, and only irresponsible teenagers, etc etc are the only ones who get abortions. I also didn't mean to imply that all people who change their minds re: an abortion after seeing a sonogram is going to be on welfare.  I'm simply saying that, by default, a woman attempting to obtain an abortion (by her own choice) is not prepared to become a mother to the particular embryo inside of her at that time, for one reason or another.

I also get what you're saying about your mom.  And hey, she did a fantastic job given what life had handed her.  And she raised a well-adjusted woman.  That's great!  

ETA: I very highly disagree with your last sentence though.  Government invasion into a person's personal choices shouldn't have anything to do with emotional maturity or stability.  EVERY person should be free from this kind of interference; our Country's founding, the Constitution, and hundreds of years of Supreme Court decisions share that value.  

Beth&Derek

trickeytricky:

.Also I love how you all make it sound like ever teen mother is "bad" and that this choice is only being made by them, not 30 year old women who sleep around and dont want a kid messing up their routine, for example.

  No one in this thread mentioned teen parents once, unless I missed something.

The fact is, this law is not about informing people. This is about guilting women into going through with a pregnancy that they've already decided to abort. The thought process is, "Let's make her hear all about the arms and legs and heartbeat so that she sees the fetus as a baby and won't want to go through with the abortion."

I never said (or even tried to imply) that every surprise pregnancy results in an unwanted child because that's clearly not the case at all, but the fact is, if women who have already decided to abort are persuaded to go through with the pregnancy, it will result in more unwanted children being born.

trickeytricky

I know, and I dont take offense, I just like a fair fight. Also want to take the time to stress adoption, Overall we need to stop thinking it all is so taboo and do a better job of respecting and educating all parties.

trickeytricky

Sorry b&d for jumping to that assumption, it is Tuesday night and Teen Mom is on. You are right, no one said that. I personally feel that this is to prevt that, maybe 1% that

trickeytricky

Crap, I give up. That small percent that does it just to do it, out of fear but doesnt get that an embyo or fetus is ultimately a person.

Beth&Derek

trickeytricky:

Sorry b&d for jumping to that assumption, it is Tuesday night and Teen Mom is on.

No worries.

 

Jennrs

I deal a lot with this issue in the work I do. I talk to a lot of young women about their choices (adoption, abortion, parenting). I'm pro-choice, but it still saddens me everytime a girl chooses to take the abortion route, eventhough I know she made an informed choice.

With that being said, I hate the Texas law. I think it's asinine and a HUGE infringment on our personal rights (which is why I'm pro-choice in the first place!). They all need to stay out of our business!

Beth&Derek

Jennrs:

With that being said, I hate the Texas law. I think it's asinine and a HUGE infringment on our personal rights (which is why I'm pro-choice in the first place!). They all need to stay out of our business!

This is how I feel. I don't know if I ever could have had an abortion myself, but I'm pro-choice because I believe women should have the right to choose, regardless of whether people like their choices or not. This law infringes on those rights that we've already been given.