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Need help w/ clicker training & high value treats please!
I'm frustrated with the clicker. I've never tried one before, but we started agility foundations and it's highly recommended that we use one. I can totally see the benefits, except my dog just can't seem to catch on. I load the clicker before every session, I'm sure my timing is on, but he seriously just sits there and stares at me when he ought to be at the point where he offers a behavior, then he gets bored and walks away.
I assume that what I'm offering just isn't motivating enough for him? I use a mix of freeze-dried liver, Zukes and Rollover as staple training treats, you'd think that would be pretty motivating. I had better luck today using a tug toy, but I caught myself using it more as a lure than as a reward.
Do you think I should step it up with the treats? I have a ton of hamburger in the freezer, I'm thinking about trying that cut into tiny pieces. Or is it more likely that I'm just screwing something up? Are they supposed to catch on to this right away, or does it sometimes just take time?
Thanks for any thought!
ETA: I also meant to ask if anyone had suggestions for treats that your dog goes nuts over...I'm willing to try anything!
Re: Need help w/ clicker training & high value treats please!
Does he get excited to train without the clicker? He sounds like he is confused and then gets bored because he isn't getting rewarded. Have you tried using the clicker on tricks that he already knows and gets excited about doing? I found when I started clicker training that my timing needed some work so I would first use it on things that he knew (like spins or down) and then simple things like "touch" for nose to hand and "target" for nose to target.
As for treats, I have such a range of treats depending on what I'm doing. Real Meat treats are pretty low value for Keefe and I use them for things like playing fetch so he just gets some reward to keep burning off the energy (he isn't as toy motivated but will keep doing fetch for awhile with some reward). Bravo dehydrated raw training treats that come in a variety of proteins like buffalo, turkey, salmon, etc are good for training new behaviors but don't have a lot of smell so they don't have as much value away from the house. On the other hand, dehydrated raw green tripe and Stella and Chewy's Carnivore Crunch are higher value and I use them outside of the house and I know that they will keep his focus.
However, I had to up my game with agility when we advanced in agility and he was off leash in a big building. Keefer is bad about sniffing and he would get so much reward from just sniffing the ground and all of the leftover goodies that he wouldn't want to pay attention. He would come if I called him immediately but he wouldn't want to keep working to learn because he would get distracted by the floor. His all time favorite is cheese though (even above steak) so that's my recommendation for a high value treat (although I do use steak and hamburger too).
Have fun!
I do think he's confused, because he rocks obedience class, where we don't use a clicker. So it's not that he doesn't like training, he does...and he loves those treats in obedience, also. But I also think that he just really likes obedience work, and doing it is something of a reward in and of itself. The agility preps we're doing are just totally different than what we've been doing, and I can tell he's sort of like, "What do you want from me? No, seriously, what? OK, play amongst yourselves, I'm going over here to check out this interesting smell..."
The thing we're working on right now is for him to independently go around a stationary object. In class it's an orange cone, at home I'm using my kids' tee-ball set up. It's very simple, the goal is for him to figure out that if he circles the object, he gets a treat. So I start by luring him, click as soon as he does it, and treat. I do this two or three times. Then I sit and wait. If he even looks at the object, I click, lure him around, and treat. If he sniffs it, same thing. At this point, he ought to be puzzling it ought in his little doggie brain, right? At least trying?
All the stuff I've already taught without a clicker, he's fabulous at. Look, tap, quick sits, and he gets excited when I ask him to do those. But the things I'm trying to teach with the clicker just aren't...you know, clicking. I'm wondering if he's waiting on a command, because that's what he's used to, and we aren't supposed to give one for the exercises we've been doing?
We found a new stinky treat. They're called "Thinkers." They come in long sticks(which made me wonder about using them as training treats), but break apart easily, or you could cut them up. They smell to high heaven and G goes nuts for them.
Otherwise, I don't know what to tell you. G suggests you have a heart-to-heart with him about all of the puppies out there that have to settle for milk bones and don't have the option of working for Zuke's or liver.
Good luck with the clicker!
This was Keefer to a T! He seriously would look at me, begging me to just tell him what I wanted and then he would go off and sniff if I wouldn't tell him. A lot of agility people believe that you should teach things by shaping, which is why they want you to use a clicker. And while I really like clicker training, I saw that Keefe was frustrated and said that I had to stand up for him and find the method that worked best for him. I still used a clicker for foundations and for training contacts and introductions to all equipment (or when I'm training just one piece of equipment), but when I stopped shaping and started doing some luring and rewarding, things got better.
It really truly sounds to me like he doesn't know what you want so he goes off on his own. I think it can be confusing to do a lure for all the way around an object and having that earn the treat and then a few times later getting the treat for just looking at the object or walking towards it. We had the same exercise and Keefe was the same way as Booker, he would just walk away from it and sniff.
What I did instead was try to train it just like I had trained Keefer to do tricks (or obedience). I would lure it (click and treat), then I would lure with just my hand (not a treat) and I would reward, then I started saying the word that I was giving to what we were doing (just like how I would use the word down after I was getting the behavior and saying "good down" before I ever asked for a down), and we worked up from there to him offering it because he knew what exactly was getting him the reward. Keefer never has shaped as well as he has with me first luring and rewarding; some dogs are great at shaping though. So think about how you train obedience and tricks and use the same principles for the exercises you are trying to do.
I know you said you aren't supposed to give one with the exercises that you've been doing and I completely understand because I was taught the same thing but I distinctly remember both of us being frustrated and me disregarding the instructors and doing it my own way. I'm totally not a rebel but just like people, dogs learn differently and no one training program works well for all. And since we are now up to 20 obstacle courses I can say that I didn't do badly by him.
I took a little flack for about two seconds when the instructor saw that in the same class as I changed methods that he was getting it.
ETA - 2x2 weave poles was sort of my exception to my rule. I followed the method for 2x2s and am a true believer. Compared to dogs that learn by channel weaves, 2x2 weaves really seems to teach the dog to know what they are doing and the method is mainly shaping.
I will definitely look for these!
If you haven't tried green tripe before, that is usually a favorite.
The Thinkers have grain in them in case you feed grain free.
TLB, thanks...I'm glad to hear I'm not the only one. I really think even just being able to give him a command would help a ton. Beth says that there's no point in a command, because what we're doing right now doesn't really have any label, but eventually it will be "out" and "go." So I get that calling it something random right now doesn't really help, ultimately, but it also doesn't help if he won't do it at all. Also, we're in a class with a bunch of more "typical" agility dogs, and Swissies don't learn the same way herding breeds do, period. I adore my dog and he's certainly trainable enough, but he's no border collie. (Or kees
) So we may just have to innovate.
They didn't teach this stuff when I was doing it with Griffin. Or, she didn't, anyway. It was basically, teach the dog the equipment, instruct on crosses and body language, and go. So, it's definitely something new to me.
Yeah, I think part of the allure of training is innovating even when I want to pull my hair out. I certainly don't have a border collie or sheltie and he definitely has a mind of his own so I have to find a way to get through to him or have him think that what I'm asking was his idea. Or find a way to motivate (like bringing cheese to trump the guaranteed reward from the floor).
Keefe is so silly too, most dogs like tunnels and are more hesitant of things like the teeter but he is the complete opposite and will go out of his way to go on a contact so even the instructors will scratch their heads because he is just strange in that way and they have to think of new ways to get him to follow my signals. He makes me laugh with his antics although a few months ago when we started it was a whole other game so stick with it.
The highest value training treats in our house are green tripe, freeze dried liver, hot dogs, and cheese.
We get our green tripe treats from greentripe.com
We like the K9 krackle the best from greentripe.com.
We're taking a clicker training class with Dixie, and we were actually discussing last night what to do when the dog gets distracted, bored, frustrated. Our trainer suggested increasing the frequency of rewards (by either lowering your criteria for the exercise you're doing or doing an exercise your dog knows really well) or increasing the value of the reward until you get the dog unstuck.
Every dog's taste seems to be different though, so IMO it's trial and error finding that perfect treat. Dixie was having a meltdown last night when my DH and DS had to leave the room during class--she has bad SA--and we ended up using a big cooking spoon with peanut butter and mashed up vienna sausages. She got to have one little lick on it for each click. It sounds kinda gross but it got her working again instead of whining at the door.
Our trainer is big on pure shaping too, which can be slow at times, but I think even if you do some type of lure or a touch target the clicker is still really useful. We've been using it a lot lately, and I feel like it's sped up our progress a lot.
"The hardest thing is to live richly in the present without letting it be tainted out of fear for the future or regret for the past." - Sylvia Plath
Totally depends on the dog, and how they were previously trained, I bet duke would have been amazing at clicker training and shaping had I started it with him years ago. He would offer all sorts of behaviors to get a treat. BUT my current training method is incompatible with shaping because he has learned to wait for commands and to give eye contact. I can put a steak in from of him, and he will simply sit there, staring at me and drooling until I give a command or release him to eat. If I'm giving commands, he would do them over and over, but he would never offer a new behavior.
And my dogs say the greatest treat known to man is fried chicken. An order of chicken nuggets make them lose their mind with happiness.
Have you seen my monkey?