Duggar miscarriage episode--recap/thoughts?

dontcallmeshirley

So, I DVR'd it last night and watched this morning. Honestly, it upset me less than I thought it would, and I even watched it holding LilShirley. I did really feel for them, though--I've never seen these people truly express sadness. Say what you will about their ideas regarding family planning, but it is incredibly evident that the lost child was loved and wanted. 

LaurierGirl28

As much as I felt very bad for them (they obviously grieved very strongly for this child); it still bugs me that they felt the need to air it on TV (and likely profit from it).

Eddy1

I was judgy that they were going to include this time in their lives on a tv show. But after watching it I thought it was tastefully done. I didn't feel like a rubber neck for watching. Also I now see the value in sharing this moment in their life. I am sure there were plenty of people who took comfort in them opening themselves up at such a raw time in their lives.

MrDobalina

I hate on the Duggars as much as possible, but I thought it was ok.  With the exception of airing the scene when the kids found out.  They deserved privacy at that moment.

But their grief was real.  And she seems more fundie than  him. 

shouldbworkin

eddy:

I am sure there were plenty of people who took comfort in them opening themselves up at such a raw time in their lives.

I haven't seen it, but I think it is good to make these things public if you're already a public person.  Having a loss is such a lonely thing b/c it's a taboo topic for some reason.  The more people that talk about it, the less taboo it becomes. 

jenniloveselvis

LaurierGirl28:

As much as I felt very bad for them (they obviously grieved very strongly for this child); it still bugs me that they felt the need to air it on TV (and likely profit from it).

this is how I feel.

dev22

MrDobalina:

I hate on the Duggars as much as possible, but I thought it was ok.  With the exception of airing the scene when the kids found out.  They deserved privacy at that moment.

But their grief was real.  And she seems more fundie than  him. 

I have not watched it yet, but I am fuming that they filmed them telling the kids.FUSCKS them.

PolishWonder

I felt awful for the kids. They've been taught since Day 1 to only put on a happy face and to never show anything other than joy. So, then they're told their mom has miscarried and it's appropriate to be upset, yet the cameras rolling probably didn't let them feel able to cry. (Does that sentence make sense?)

Dylanite

dev22:

MrDobalina:

I hate on the Duggars as much as possible, but I thought it was ok.  With the exception of airing the scene when the kids found out.  They deserved privacy at that moment.

But their grief was real.  And she seems more fundie than  him. 

I have not watched it yet, but I am fuming that they filmed them telling the kids.FUSCKS them.

Ya but doesn't that open up the debate, at least a little, on whether or not to treat the death of a child to that of a miscarriage (and the definitions thereof of course)? 

dev22

Dylanite:

dev22:

MrDobalina:

I hate on the Duggars as much as possible, but I thought it was ok.  With the exception of airing the scene when the kids found out.  They deserved privacy at that moment.

But their grief was real.  And she seems more fundie than  him. 

I have not watched it yet, but I am fuming that they filmed them telling the kids.FUSCKS them.

Ya but doesn't that open up the debate, at least a little, on whether or not to treat the death of a child to that of a miscarriage (and the definitions thereof of course)? 

I don't think so. I am not really worried abotu the bigger debate on whether this was the death of a child or a miscarrage or both in this circumstance. These kids were ALL taught that this was a child, their baby sister, and that she was now dead. And they filmed, for the entire world to see, their children's reactions to that news the moment they found out. That is absolutely horrible to me. The kids deserved the privacy in the moment to react how they needed to.

Dylanite

I'm surprised you seem surprised.

dev22

Dylanite:

I'm surprised you seem surprised.

Eh, not surprised. They are totally AWy enough to do that, but still disgusted.

lyssbobiss

I loathe much of what the Duggars are about, but I'm watching the episode for the second time and it still breaks my heart.  I can't imagine.  The tiny coffin - I just...ugh.

If they needed the service for closure, I'm not going to hate on them for it.

dev22

lyssbobiss:

I loathe much of what the Duggars are about, but I'm watching the episode for the second time and it still breaks my heart.  I can't imagine.  The tiny coffin - I just...ugh.

If they needed the service for closure, I'm not going to hate on them for it.

I truly do not have an issue with the service and believe that everyone needs to greive in their own way. And I also believe the baby was very much wanted, even if I strongly disagree with their home life.

Telling the kids on film is not part of the greiving process.

Sibil

dev22:

lyssbobiss:

I loathe much of what the Duggars are about, but I'm watching the episode for the second time and it still breaks my heart.  I can't imagine.  The tiny coffin - I just...ugh.

If they needed the service for closure, I'm not going to hate on them for it.

I truly do not have an issue with the service and believe that everyone needs to greive in their own way. And I also believe the baby was very much wanted, even if I strongly disagree with their home life.

Telling the kids on film is not part of the greiving process.

It of course was incredibly sad, but I couldn't shake the feeling that so much of it was just a display.  It seemed there were real emotions from Michelle at times, but I saw so much of what seemed like her trying to appear right before the cameras.

Your baby has no heartbeat?  Let's pray and delicately wipe tears.  I mean, I probably wouldn't ugly cry on tv, either, but I'd shove the camera out of my way to proceed to ugly cry.

And the scene with jimbob passing around tissues and giving kisses.  It seemed almost jovial.  It was so... weird.  The younger kids clearly don't get it, and they didn't at the funeral.  I mean, that's fine, but that's also why you don't tell 19 kids as a group instead of in age appropriate cohorts. 

Dylanite

Sibil:

dev22:

lyssbobiss:

I loathe much of what the Duggars are about, but I'm watching the episode for the second time and it still breaks my heart.  I can't imagine.  The tiny coffin - I just...ugh.

If they needed the service for closure, I'm not going to hate on them for it.

I truly do not have an issue with the service and believe that everyone needs to greive in their own way. And I also believe the baby was very much wanted, even if I strongly disagree with their home life.

Telling the kids on film is not part of the greiving process.

It of course was incredibly sad, but I couldn't shake the feeling that so much of it was just a display.  It seemed there were real emotions from Michelle at times, but I saw so much of what seemed like her trying to appear right before the cameras.

Your baby has no heartbeat?  Let's pray and delicately wipe tears.  I mean, I probably wouldn't ugly cry on tv, either, but I'd shove the camera out of my way to proceed to ugly cry.

And the scene with jimbob passing around tissues and giving kisses.  It seemed almost jovial.  It was so... weird.  The younger kids clearly don't get it, and they didn't at the funeral.  I mean, that's fine, but that's also why you don't tell 19 kids as a group instead of in age appropriate cohorts. 

I can see why they'd put on such a display given the agenda and worldview they're advertising.  I'm sure they think they're setting a good, Christian example.  It's fuckingnuts in a number of contexts, but I can see why they'd do it.

Sibil

Oh, I absolutely see why they do it.  But sensing their manipulation certainly takes away from the sadness.  I struggled to do anything other than roll my eyes when I'm actually quite sympathetic to their situation.

Dylanite

Sibil:

Oh, I absolutely see why they do it.  But sensing their manipulation certainly takes away from the sadness.  I struggled to do anything other than roll my eyes when I'm actually quite sympathetic to their situation.

I can see that.  Haven't watched it... yet.  I want to see this one now.  But just this one.

Sibil

I think a lot of it was staged, too, so that's going to come across.  Yes, the grief is real, but the reactions are faked.

lyssbobiss

There was a part of me that did wonder if the scene where they told the kids was a re-enactment.  Some of the girls didn't seem to have much emotion about it, which, while everyone grieves in their own way, was certainly surprising to me.

dontcallmeshirley

lyssbobiss:

There was a part of me that did wonder if the scene where they told the kids was a re-enactment.  Some of the girls didn't seem to have much emotion about it, which, while everyone grieves in their own way, was certainly surprising to me.

Maybe. It also could have been that they are so used to hiding the real stuff from the cameras after all this time.

dev22

dontcallmeshirley:

lyssbobiss:

There was a part of me that did wonder if the scene where they told the kids was a re-enactment.  Some of the girls didn't seem to have much emotion about it, which, while everyone grieves in their own way, was certainly surprising to me.

Maybe. It also could have been that they are so used to hiding the real stuff from the cameras after all this time.

There is also the principle that is prevalent in gothardism - and that is keeping sweet. Many girls are taught from a young age that the only proper emotion is happiness or joy, and after awhile, that is the only emotion that they portray.

Sibil

dev22:

dontcallmeshirley:

lyssbobiss:

There was a part of me that did wonder if the scene where they told the kids was a re-enactment.  Some of the girls didn't seem to have much emotion about it, which, while everyone grieves in their own way, was certainly surprising to me.

Maybe. It also could have been that they are so used to hiding the real stuff from the cameras after all this time.

There is also the principle that is prevalent in gothardism - and that is keeping sweet. Many girls are taught from a young age that the only proper emotion is happiness or joy, and after awhile, that is the only emotion that they portray.

Exactly.  From birth they're basically not allowed to cry.  And they're physically punished to learn that lesson.

Did you notice the lack of real hugs?  Like I said, I don't doubt the grief is real, and Michelle showed some real moments, but the rest of it was either staged or felt off b/c in my family everyone would be embraced in real hugs, petting someone's hair, doing something, anything, to indicate real human affection.

Apparently I didn't cry at my mom's funeral, so I don't think the lack of reaction from the little kids was noteworthy.  I just noticed the side-hugs of the older kids. 

Nonny

Aren't side hugs just how they hug so as to avoid boobs being pressed up in such a way that might cause the guys to do something that goes against their otherwise repressed sexuality?  I don't see the lack of "real" hugs as any indication that the grief wasn't real. When my FIL died there was very little hugging because my IL's just don't do that, and the death, while grievously sad, didn't suddenly trigger that behavior. 

Emotions are a very tricky beast.  I've cried more over the loss of a pet cat than I did over my own grandmothers, so I can't really judge how people choose to express (or not express) their grief.

Knitty

Sibil:

dev22:

dontcallmeshirley:

lyssbobiss:

There was a part of me that did wonder if the scene where they told the kids was a re-enactment.  Some of the girls didn't seem to have much emotion about it, which, while everyone grieves in their own way, was certainly surprising to me.

Maybe. It also could have been that they are so used to hiding the real stuff from the cameras after all this time.

There is also the principle that is prevalent in gothardism - and that is keeping sweet. Many girls are taught from a young age that the only proper emotion is happiness or joy, and after awhile, that is the only emotion that they portray.

Exactly.  From birth they're basically not allowed to cry.  And they're physically punished to learn that lesson.

Did you notice the lack of real hugs?  Like I said, I don't doubt the grief is real, and Michelle showed some real moments, but the rest of it was either staged or felt off b/c in my family everyone would be embraced in real hugs, petting someone's hair, doing something, anything, to indicate real human affection.

Apparently I didn't cry at my mom's funeral, so I don't think the lack of reaction from the little kids was noteworthy.  I just noticed the side-hugs of the older kids. 

Yes, they beat them until they stop crying. 

In the Advanced Seminar Textbook (pp 309-341), Gothard outlines several principles for child discipline. Among these, he asserts that discipline should begin the day the child is born with the establishment of a daily schedule. He asserts that limits on freedom give contentment and that feeding on demand produces a demanding child.

He continues that one of the first tasks of a parent in communicating with their newborn is to teach him the meaning of the word no. He talks a lot about the idea that children understand things spiritually before they are able to understand them intellectually. Of course, this can easily lead to the idea that the child is spiritually rebellious long before they are capable of understanding the parents' instruction.

Gothard teaches that it is important for his hierarchical chain of command to be followed in everything. Therefore, all commands must come from the father (such as clean your room), but that the mother has authority under the father to give the detailed "hows" of fulfilling the commands. If the child rebels against the mother's rules she spanks, supported by the father. If it is against the command itself the father must do the spanking.

There is a lengthy section on character qualities and developing those, then he outlines the steps if a child is disobedient. First, the parent should establish that the child heard the instruction and understands the consequence of disobedience. Then the parent should bind Satan. Next, the parent should establish the child's responsibility by asking what the child did. They are not to ask why the child did it, because the child will seek to justify himself. Then they are required to get alone with the child, and to portray an attitude of grief. The parent must try to bring the child to sincere repentance and "pray inwardly that the child's will will be broken but not his spirit."

Once this is done, the parent should appeal to the child's conscience explain that they are required to spank them because they love them (Prov. 13:24) and that the absence of spanking means the absence of love from the parents. :shiver


Gothard says that parents must use a "rod" so that the child will associate pain and punishment with the object rather than the parent :rolleyes

He continues with talk about the crying/tears, and says that although it is not necessary for the child to cry, that tears are one way in which a child cleanses his conscience.

Gothard then gets into a sticky spot of trying to discern whether the child's will is broken. If not, the parents must keep spanking. They are warned not to overcorrect, however. They just have to spiritually discern the child's brokenness of will.



After the spanking, the parent and child should hug and say that they love each other. At this point, if the parent has wronged the child through a false accusation, anger, personal attacks, embarrassing the child or being vindictive, they should apologize.

Sibil

But, they side hug the boys and young girls.  No breasts there.

I don't really judge any expression of grief.  Like I said, I'm sure it was genuine, but it really didn't come across that way.  I heaved wracking sobs when I got the email my dog died, I cried ugly tears a couple weeks ago when an acquaintance died in a hiking accident, but I never cried (in public) for my mom.

 So, yes, I get that expression of grief is different.  You may have a different interpretation of the episode, that's fine.  Mine is that it was odd, although I can't exactly say why which is why I mention details that were unexpected.

MeredithE

That tiny casket really got to me. Also I am totally ignorant here but how did Michelle give birth to the baby? Did they induce? What happened?

lyssbobiss

I know that we have discussed a lot of Gothard's teachings.  My question is - have they admitted to being Gothardites or is this something that we are sort of extrapolating based on similarities in behavior to his teachings or internet rumors?

loislayn

MeredithE:

That tiny casket really got to me. Also I am totally ignorant here but how did Michelle give birth to the baby? Did they induce? What happened?

I think a D&C, or would it be a D&E at that far along? I'm not sure. She mentioned having a couple days with the baby after finding out it was dead before delivering.

Knitty

lyssbobiss:

I know that we have discussed a lot of Gothard's teachings.  My question is - have they admitted to being Gothardites or is this something that we are sort of extrapolating based on similarities in behavior to his teachings or internet rumors?

They are Grothardites. Links on their website, Michelle giving seminars on how to be a good Gorthardite submissive wife, etc. They use the ATI homeschooling program, go to ATI conferences every year.

lyssbobiss

Knitty:

lyssbobiss:

I know that we have discussed a lot of Gothard's teachings.  My question is - have they admitted to being Gothardites or is this something that we are sort of extrapolating based on similarities in behavior to his teachings or internet rumors?

They are Grothardites. Links on their website, Michelle giving seminars on how to be a good Gorthardite submissive wife, etc.

Thank you for clarifying!