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Per request - Ask a Calvinist
. Calvinism has come up several times over the last two weeks and I keep saying I will start a thread on it sometime. Now's as good a time as any, I guess. I can't speak for all Calvinists, but I can try to articulate what I believe. I welcome any questions and hope that some Arminians and Catholics (I'm looking at you, 2V) will join in the discussion so we can learn a little from each other.
To understand Calvinism, you have to understand how a Calvinist views the nature of God.
God is perfect, omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent, just, holy, righteous, faithful, merciful, and loving. He can never NOT be those things. Our minds can't even begin to understand why He does what He does. We can only try. And really, who are we to even question or ask why? He is omnipotent and can do whatever He wants.
You may say, how could a loving God or a just God allow human misery to happen? To answer that you have to understand how a Calvinist views the nature of man.
Man is sinful. The words most Calvinists use to describe the nature of man are "totally depraved" ? that means that we are born into sin and cannot turn away from it on our own. We are unable to choose God on our own because of our moral corruption.
So how could a just God allow suffering? Because we deserve suffering ? it is just. We deserve to be punished for our sinful nature. He gave us over to our sinful nature and now we are suffering the consequences of our nature. I?ve heard it described this way ? if you were sitting in a trial, a murderer was being sentenced and the judge decided to just let the murderer go free without punishment, would we think the judge was just? No. God can?t be anything but just, so He has to punish us.
He also doesn't cause the suffering. We do, because we are sinners.
But remember that God is also merciful, so He has given us His Grace. He wanted to set aside a group of people for Himself to spend eternity with, because He loves us so much.
Back to Calvinism. There are five main points to it.
1 ? Total depravity (I already touched on this). Humans are sinful by nature.
2 ? Unconditional election ? God has chosen who He will save based on His own purposes. We all deserve to be punished, but our merciful God decided that He would save an elect.
3 ? Limited atonement ? Jesus? death atoned for the sins of the elect. A just God has to deliver punishment or He wouldn?t be just. He sent His son Jesus to do the job. (There are four point Calvinists that believe in unlimited atonement ? that Christ?s death was for all, but since only the elect will end up accepting that salvation, that Grace will only be applied to them. I believe something like this.)
4 ? Irresistable grace ? If God wants to save you, you can?t resist. The Holy Spirit will cause us to ?freely? come to Christ.
5 ? Perseverance of the saints ? once you know Him, you can?t turn away. If you fall away from the faith it means you either never knew Him to begin with or you will eventually return.
So you?re probably wondering how I can believe in free will and all of this at the same time, right? Most Calvinists believe in compatibilism, which means that a person is only as free as their nature allows them to be. Since we are sinful by nature, we are not free to accept God. But we still have the illusion of freedom. I?ve heard people describe it this way ? If I put a cookie and a carrot in front of my child, I already know which one they are going to choose, because I know my child?s tastes (just like God knows our nature). I know what my child will choose before they do. But when they choose the cookie, they still have free will to do so. Does that make sense?
I think growing up Lutheran has also shown me that there is free will once you know Christ. The Bible talks a lot about freedom in Christ (John 8:36 for example). We are never truly free until we know Him and then we are no longer slaves to the bondage of our sinful nature.
I think Dylanite asked the other day whether or not this gives people that believe this a free pass to sin because they aren?t in control of their sinful nature. I don?t think so at all. I think most people who believe in Calvinism probably believe it because they think they are part of the elect. These same people believe that once they are saved they are born again and actually do have free will - are free from their sin (Phillipians 2:13). They want to strive to do what is right because of that irresistible Holy Spirit working inside of them. It?s not that they fear they will lose salvation if they do something that dishonors God, but that the overwhelming desire of their heart is to please Him in everything. I also think that when we're talking about free will, we're talking about the will to choose salvation or not. It's about the overall shape of our lives.
I hope this makes sense. If it doesn?t just ask and I?ll try my best to explain. I didn't back things up with Scripture here, but I will for you if you want. There are so many issues that I think people are confused about when it comes to Calvinism (like what is the point of evangelism if you can?t win souls or why would God create life only to damn it to hell) that I would love to clear up. I can?t speak for all Calvinists, because the label is as broad as any other denomination, but I can show you how this Calvinist reconciles those beliefs. And I can't even say that I completely understand it all either. Like I said in the beginning, who am I to question God and ask Him why?
Re: Per request - Ask a Calvinist
How does the murderer example work when talking about innocent individuals like newborns? God is punishing them because they were born into sin?
With predestination, can you as an indivual make the world better? Or does it not matter?
Thanks for starting this! I do have a question about this part:
So how could a just God allow suffering? Because we deserve suffering ? it is just. We deserve to be punished for our sinful nature. He gave us over to our sinful nature and now we are suffering the consequences of our nature. I?ve heard it described this way ? if you were sitting in a trial, a murderer was being sentenced and the judge decided to just let the murderer go free without punishment, would we think the judge was just? No. God can?t be anything but just, so He has to punish us.
Do Calvinists explain this on the individual level or on a societal level? For example, if a sweet two year old is paralyzed in an accident and has to endure a lifetime of pain and hardship, is it considered just because SHE is a sinner or because HUMANKIND is a sinner? Does that make sense?
Thank you for your post, it's very informative! But there's one question that's always bothered me about Calvinism (and predestination in particular). I don't get the difference between God knowing everything that will happen and God ordaining the result.
Your analogy of a child with a cookie and a carrot is really helpful, but why would God create a sinful creature like man? Even if God created Adam and Eve as perfect, he obviously knew they would become fallen (because he's omniscient), so why would he create man with such a defect? In your analogy, obviously you created your children but you didn't CREATE them from nothing (i.e. design them), KWIM? So why not create humans that want carrots?
Calvin himself (in the Institutes, chpt. 23 #7) says it's terrible that God foreknew man's fall and foreknew it because he ordained it. He even goes so far as to say that God didn't just know, but "at his own pleasure arranged it." Calvin throws some St. Augustine at that question, but I still can't wrap my mind around it. (and I'm sure Calvin would say there are some mysteries that are beyond our comprehension and I probably shouldn't question God's plan, but I'm not a Calvinist, so there, Calvin!)
Death isn't punishment (at least in my eyes). This life is temporary. True punishment would be God turning away from the newborn and not accepting it into His Kingdom in Heaven. We can't know whether those newborns will be saved or not.
But death on Earth here isn't IMO a result of God's punishment. When I say punishment I am strictly talking in terms of salvation. And in terms of salvation, a newborn is no more able to accept Christ than an adult and I don't believe is treated any differently in God's eyes.
I feel like a lot of the suffering that happens in this world, like sickness or the death of an innocent newborn, is not punishment by God, but rather the result of living in a sinful world. We cause these things and are to blame for them (or maybe our parents and past generations are to blame for them). God isn't.
I don't think that means that God doesn't hear our prayers and won't intercede on our behalf sometimes. But why He chooses to do it sometimes and not always, I can't answer. No one can.
Yes, I believe I can make the world better. But I have no power to "win souls" or anything like that and make the afterlife better for anyone else.
And I definitely think it does matter whether or not I make the world better. God doesn't base salvation on our works here on earth, but it does please Him when we do His Will (which would be to love others).
Pain and suffering, not death. So the murderer example doesn't work because that is an individual paying for his crimes, not an individual paying for the crimes of his ancestor. Kkwim?
I struggle to see how god doesn't cause this if he can control everything. It sounds like an abusive husband who, after beating his wife, said she forced him to do it by her bad chides of not obeying him. I don't mean that in a snarky way at all. I have nothing against Calvinism. It's just what your explanation sounds like to me.
IMO, because humankind is the sinner. Even the elect, who are chosen by God, can suffer because of humankind.
But I think suffering can also be seen as a blessing at times too.
The way it was explained to me in confirmation class was kind of different. Presbyterians are technically calvinist, but since they're also liberal in their beliefs, so it was kind of take it or leave it.
Basically, god chooses people before they're born, but he can unchoose them for sinning too much. So, while you can't do anything to get salvation, you can lose it. And since you don't know if you're chosen, you try to live as though you were. You can also "win souls" in that you can introduce Christianity to people who haven't heard of it, and they might be one of the chosen. They would potentially have lost their salvation through not knowing about it.
I know, that's a really really simplistic explanation, and I haven't thought about it much since I was 14, but I thought I'd throw it out there anyway.
The Bible says that God created man and the world for His glory, not man's. We try to answer this question thinking "Why would God do this to us? How could He do this to us?" But we're forgetting that the world wasn't created for us. It was created for Him.
His Creation and everything in it is meant to be a display of His nature. Just like an artist creates things to express parts of himself.
I've read it described this way. If God would have created a perfect world, He would have only painted half of the picture. He needed to paint the world in the way He did so that there was an ability to also demonstrate His mercy, justice, and other attributes that can't be shown in perfection.
It's about Him, not us.
I guess the closest thing I can think of to relate to this (and it isn't even going to come close) would be finding out I was pregnant with an "imperfect" child. I would still give birth to that child so that it had the chance to live, even knowing that it will probably endure some suffering. Why? Because I would want to hold my child and see my child, for however brief that time would be. Some may say it's selfish, but I would disagree.
Maybe it's the same for God. Maybe He just wants to see His Creation and experience it, even knowing that suffering and death will eventually come from it.
Why did/would God create humans morally corrupted and depraved?
What is your belief of how God came to be? Where did he come from according to your views?
Thanks for starting this thread. I've always been fascinated and intrigued by religion and I love to learn about different views.
For me, at least, this gives too much credit to the individual. It's as if they are earning their salvation. IMO election is absolutely unmerited. There is nothing I can do to obtain it, but rather it's God demonstrating His mercy.
If you know Christ, have faith, you have assurance of salvation. Therefore, you are to live as if you are chosen, because you are, because it pleases God for you to do good works.
Evangelism has it's place too. Not because anything I can do will cause the Holy Spirit to come to that person, but because I may be the tool that God uses to open someone's eyes once He put the Holy Spirit there. KWIM? And besides, spreading the Gospel is also about glorifying God more than anything. And that pleases Him. Evangelizing has more to do with God than anything we can do for people.
I believe the four point Calvinism (God knows who will choose to accept Him) is what Methodists believe. I was raised Presbyterian and while I very, very much think that makes more sense, it's technically not what the church believes. Which is why I struggle with it.
And the whole, "Can't you just sin?" thing... well, no, because then you wouldn't be fit for heaven, right?
Also, AW, I know many very religious people who take comfort in the fact that they KNOW they will go to heaven. Do you believe this? I would imagine a Calvinist-based faith would preclude you from knowing this definitely. Can you elaborate on that, perhaps?
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I can see how reframing the issue in terms of God instead of man makes some sense. But at the same time, it sounds a lot like "well, I had to create suffering so that I can save people" which doesn't sound very merciful to me. Why not save everyone? Calvin was pretty insistent on double predestination (God decides exactly who is going to hell before anyone is even born) which again really doesn't seem to square with the idea of a merciful God.
Although I suppose if you believe that this world is only a temporary existence and man's ultimate goal is entrance into a spiritual world, it makes sense that this world would kind of suck in comparison.
Again, I really appreciate your willingness to answer questions, especially to dirty life-long vegetarian atheists like me who find religion fascinating but also kind of baffling.
Yeah, this is kind of another issue I have, but you find it with various Christian sects, not just Calvinists.
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Did my answer to smock cover your first question? Let me know if not.
Because God is omnipresent, He didn't come from anywhere. He just Is.
Which brings up another point. God is omnipresent and omniscient, so really there is no such thing as predestiny. There is just destiny, because He is present in every moment of time and knows everything at the same time. It's like history, the present, and the future are all a big gazillion piece puzzle and we only have one little piece of it, because we are only present in this moment. But God not only holds all the pieces, but he also is looking at the entire puzzle put together. I think it's pretty hard for us to grasp the big picture clutching our one little piece!
Knowing Christ as assurance of salvation sounds a lot more like evangelical thought than calvinist. I wish I could get one of my good friends on here (I've tried!). She's PCA, definitely calvinist, and can really articulate her beliefs well. She spent a year teaching at a baptist school in Malawi, so she definitely engaged in debates about it. I tuned those out when I visited
Actually, assurance of salvation is a big part of Calvinism. Since most Calvinists believe that it is the Holy Spirit that leads you to Christ, and that the leading is irresistable, you basically know when it is happening.
I know when I am being touched by the Holy Spirit. I experience It in worship, It guides me throughout my day, and helps to answer questions about my faith for me. (I realize how crazy this sounds to someone without a belief in the Holy Spirit.) Because that presence is so true and real to me, there is no denying for me God's existence and my faith that I am a member of His elect.
I have another question that's not specific to Calvinism, but Christianity in general (and I'd love to hear if anyone else has an answer): Did everyone who died before Jesus go to hell?
I know medieval Catholicism said they did, and then Jesus flew down to hell to bring the Old Testament patriarchs up to heaven, but has that changed? Are you damned automatically if you lived before Christ?
(This is one of those things that always makes me sad when I read Dante: poor Virgil, trapped in hell, simply because of the year of his birth.)
There is something I forgot to mention that is not a part of Calvinism at all, but that helps me make sense of this question. I don't believe in a literal hell. I believe hell is simply God turning His back on you and your being denied entrance into the Kingdom of Heaven. I feel like you simply no longer exist at that point. You aren't "saved" from death and given new life with God.
So to me, it isn't like God is creating some people so that they can be tortured for eternity. It's that God created us all the same and out of His mercy and for His own glory is deciding to keep some to be with Him in Heaven. Does that make sense?
And I'm a dirty hippie Christian, who was a vegetarian for a decade (and now loooooooves red meat :P), so we are probably a lot more alike than we think!
We are all the same. Nothing we can do can earn salvation. God chooses who He wants for His own glory.
IMO, if they were not chosen (maybe they were and the Holy Spirit led them to Christ on their deathbeds??), they just cease to exist and will not be in Heaven.
All I know is that salvation can't be earned. That gives us way too much power.
But in Calvinism, if they were meant to be saved, they won't miss the opportunity. It's part of irresistable grace.
You being able to lose your salvation goes against the Calvinist doctrines of irresistible grace and perseverance of the saints. Unless you believe that if you cause yourself to lose your salvation you mean you were never saved to begin with.
But most Calvinists I know do believe in assurance of salvation.
I guess this shows that Calvinism isn't black and white. There are a wide range of beliefs, just as it is with anything else. Every Calvinist will answer differently based on their own personal faith.
I wish I could remember Scripture now, but the Bible talks about people being credited salvation. It was the same way in the Old Covenant for people who lived before the Law was written, and who obviously couldn't have followed it.
I, as a Calvinist, believe that some of the elect lived before Jesus was alive and since the New Covenant didn't exist during their lives, they were/are not held to it.
ETA - Romans 4 talks about how Abraham was credited salvation because of his belief in God, despite being viewed as unrighteous, since he did not follow either Covenant. I believe it is the same for others.
Thanks for sharing, AW. It's always interesting (and I think beneficial) to learn about various religions, cultures, people, etc.
I'm surprised at the similarities between Calvinism and Catholicism.
There are actaully similarities in some of the Calvinist beliefs. However, there are differences. I was trying to read up on those AW and I'm having a hard time understnading it to a point that I could explain them/discuss them...sorry.
I think Calvin was one of the earliest reformers to break from the Catholic church so it makes sense that they would be pretty close dogma-wise.
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