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so...dominance theory
in Pets
talk to me. berate me, if you must.
i was flamed earlier for suggesting scruffing, because it falls under dominance theory.
and yet, the first thing i see everybody suggest when a dog is out of control is for the person to "reevaluate their status as a pack leader."
i don't get it.
2012 Races:
Emerald Nuts Midnight Run (4m) 1/1/12
Coogan's Salsa, Blues, and Shamrocks Run (5k) 3/4/12
Colon Cancer Challenge (15k) 4/1/12
Purple Stride NYC (5k) 4/21/12
Run to Combat Autism (5k) 4/29/12
RnR Philadelphia (Half Marathon) 9/16/12
Emerald Nuts Midnight Run (4m) 1/1/12
Coogan's Salsa, Blues, and Shamrocks Run (5k) 3/4/12
Colon Cancer Challenge (15k) 4/1/12
Purple Stride NYC (5k) 4/21/12
Run to Combat Autism (5k) 4/29/12
RnR Philadelphia (Half Marathon) 9/16/12
Re: so...dominance theory
right.
i'm not talking specifically about scruffing, though. i was told directly that dominance theory is not supported on this board.
so how is "establishing yourself as a pack leader" supported, then?
i'm truly not trying to stir the pot, but i do smell a good deal of hypocrisy here.
Emerald Nuts Midnight Run (4m) 1/1/12
Coogan's Salsa, Blues, and Shamrocks Run (5k) 3/4/12
Colon Cancer Challenge (15k) 4/1/12
Purple Stride NYC (5k) 4/21/12
Run to Combat Autism (5k) 4/29/12
RnR Philadelphia (Half Marathon) 9/16/12
i get it. i do all that too. i even sometimes take away his food mid-meal, and make him re-sit and wait for me to give it back.
what i want to know is....how is that NOT dominance theory???
Emerald Nuts Midnight Run (4m) 1/1/12
Coogan's Salsa, Blues, and Shamrocks Run (5k) 3/4/12
Colon Cancer Challenge (15k) 4/1/12
Purple Stride NYC (5k) 4/21/12
Run to Combat Autism (5k) 4/29/12
RnR Philadelphia (Half Marathon) 9/16/12
I would like to know how this is not trying to "stir the pot". There are plenty of ways to ask about feelings on this topic without saying people on the board are hypocrites.
I'm not sure what this post spawned from, I didn't see it, but it's safe to say that the board doesn't support "dominance theory" because it often involves manhandling your dog. It's the manhandling part that we're opposed to, for the most part.
If I'm being honest, I find training dogs is incredibly similar to "training" kids (except you can't kennel your child, obviously). Use positive reinforcement and they seem to get it. I'm not sure exactly what is "dominant" about positive reinforcement techniques, which is what most of the regulars advocate on this board.
ETA: I found the other post--that was a pretty tame flaming.
Mryan posted a link, did you read it?
Snow!
<a href="http://www.thenest.com/?utm_source=ticker&utm_medium=HTML&utm_campaign=tickers" title="Home DBecause dominance theory involves your dog performing a behavior out of fear of punishment. Say I want my dog to sit while I prepare his dinner. If he doesn't sit, I grab him by the scruff, get in his face, and tell him no. Well in the future, my dog may sit while I prepare his dinner but it is only out of FEAR OF PUNISHMENT.
Now in reality, my dog sits while I prepare his dinner because he doesn't get his dinner until he behaves the way I (his leader) require - POSITIVE REINFORCEMENT. He doesn't sit, I wait him out - no punishment involved.
Get it?
Have you seen my monkey?
Your dog isn't battling you for top position and he doesn't think he's dominant over you. For one, you're not a dog and your dog knows you're not. You're a human and you have resources he needs and wants like food, shelter, and affection. This automatically means you're on "top." **As an aside, I also don't recommend randomly taking away your dog's food while they're eating, even if you give it back, unless you're also offering some other reward for the dog not biting you when you take it. Many dogs are very food motivated and if you repeatedly take away their food, they'll learn to defend their resource by biting you. If you're trying to ensure your dog doesn't develop food aggression and lets you take away his food easily, I randomly "swap" with them. So I have another treat and the dog gets treats for me being near his food and taking it away.**
Now, I think you're questioning why everyone suggests NILIF so frequently. NILIF serves many purposes, but perhaps the biggest one for me is that it encourages good behavior and discourages rude behavior. Plain and simple. If a dog has free and open access to all the resources he wants, what incentive is there to follow commands and act in a way that is in accordance with what I expect? Meaning, if a dog can jump up on me and get attention, why wouldn't he? On the other hand, if I teach the dog that he has to sit before I pay attention, he's more inclined to do that.
Ditto. I don't use tactics to establish leadership that could turn on me. Physically my dogs could kill me, establishing my leadership by anything that requires force is a losing battle.
Dominance theory is different than leadership. Try this for some info about our misguided theory of dominance vs leadership. http://sue-eh.ca/page24/page28/
I am the provider of resources for my dogs, which I guess in some circles makes me a "pack leader". But I establish that leadership without physical force, again I don't play games I can't win.
A Spring Day on the Katy Trail
I guess what I'm noticing is that it's really a semantics argument. That is why I am "not trying to stir the pot.". I'm trying to navigate the lingo here, as it is very different lingo than that used by our behaviorist, our vet, and any other pet owners I know.
Emerald Nuts Midnight Run (4m) 1/1/12
Coogan's Salsa, Blues, and Shamrocks Run (5k) 3/4/12
Colon Cancer Challenge (15k) 4/1/12
Purple Stride NYC (5k) 4/21/12
Run to Combat Autism (5k) 4/29/12
RnR Philadelphia (Half Marathon) 9/16/12
Im the one who made the statement about dominance theory. In dog training circles dominance theory is associated with Cesar Milan techniques aka physical punishment. Almost all of us support positive reinforcement which usually includes pack hierarchy. I don't dominate my dog but I am higher than him in the hierarchy. I communicate this in ways other than physical punishment. I don't have to make him scared of me to make him respect me, I reward and encourage him for respecting me.
Doninance theory leads to anxious dogs and encourages aggression, so h*ll no I don't advocate things like scruffing. Why set a dog up for failure?
ETA its not semantics it's established theories and schools of training. It jut sounds like you're unfamiliar with them. Which is fine, but it's the same as any field...medicine, law, education. Phrases don't always carry their plain English meaning within a field or school of thought they have additional meanings and connotations.
This, this, this!
Where did this idea even come from in the first place? I'm not talking about the original thread that spawned this S/O, but the idea that dogs are trying to dominate us. It's ludicrous.
It's not semantics when you get down into the actions associated with each school of thought.
Dominance theory (Cesar Milan, for example) relies on physical tactics to intimidate and harry the dog to do what you want. Glaring it down, rolling it over forcibly (alpha roll), scruffing, leash corrections (popping or yanking the dog's leash) etc. (I'm not familiar with enough of the tactics to create a more complete list, apologies!). Basically, the idea that "dogs become agressive out of frustration and dominance" is untrue. As others noted, they're not trying to dominate us! So why try to dominate them?
NILIF is solely based on rewarding preferred/good behaviors and redirecting from unwanted behaviors (and then rewarding the dog for doing what you've redirected them to). You don't ignore negative behaviors, but you don't get in the dog's face, yell, scruff, or roll them to get them not to do it again. My dog does what I want her to do because she knows I'll be happy with her for it and then probably give her a reward (whether that be playtime, affection, or a treat/food). She doesn't do it because I've intimidated her into doing it with the threat of yelling in her face or rolling her onto her back.
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I get exactly what you're saying. Dominance theory was pretty much the only game in town back when I trained my last dog, so trying to adjust my thinking and handling when I got my current pup was difficult and confusing. I actually think that people who never actually trained a dog using methods advocated by Carol Lea Benjamin, for example, have a pretty inflated view of how harsh it was. Not all dominance theorists thought that you needed to muscle or bully your dog into behaving. In practice, I do only some things differently now than I did with my last dog, it's more my perception of how the dog thinks and understands what I'm doing that has changed.
Basically, instead of thinking that the dog is constantly jockeying to be in charge, think of him more like a child. Badly-behaved children aren't trying to "dominate" their parents, but they'll get away with whatever they can in the absence of rules and structure. Same with your dog. And just like children don't need to be hit or otherwise bullied into behaving, neither does your dog. The biggest difference I notice when it actually comes to training is that for many things, you don't have to touch your dog at all. Instead of putting a leash on your dog at meal times and popping him back if he doesn't wait, you just pick his dish back up when he moves. It works in half the time.