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Our tech team has launched updates to The Nest today. As a result of these updates, members of the Nest Community will need to change their password in order to continue participating in the community. In addition, The Nest community member's avatars will be replaced with generic default avatars. If you wish to revert to your original avatar, you will need to re-upload it via The Nest.
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Note: This only affects The Nest's community members and will not affect members on The Bump or The Knot.
Re: The danger of not talking to your children about race
Studies have proven that kids indeed do see race. Maybe not as a descriptor. But it's very easy for children to ascribe personalities to race.
ceejay, I'm not necessarily irked by the your or the directing this subject to white folks because honestly, we're already talking to our kids about race. But it honestly doesn't occur to many white people to talk to their kids about it except in the broadest terms.
And oftentimes when they do, it's spurred by something their child said. At that point, they usually react in knee jerk horror and don't discuss the matter fully or continue the dialogue.
Click me, click me!
yes, I think I expressed a middle of the road way of dealing. I never said to ignore it. I said to talk about it when relevant but not make a person's race the 1st point. If my kids brought up someone's race, I would NEVER say "oh, we don't talk about that." I mean, come on. I just don't think sitting them down and pointing out that black people are different, which is the point of the app as I read it, is worthy or will do anything to make my kids more accepting. I think they will a) follow my lead, and b) discuss it with me and their father as needed.
I'm sorry, but what does that even mean? I'm black. Regardless of if you refer to me as your black friend, or your friend, I'm still black. Not talking about the fact I'm black isn't suddenly going to make me stop being black.
i saw that perspective motivating a couple of the thoughts here. i'm very conflicted myself on how best to address race and ethnicity in my own life and with my own kid. i'm white, my husband is white, my kid is white. my husband is jewish, ethnically/religiously/culturally and that will be part of my kid too. we have to find a way to bring that in (though for my kid, with her blonde hair, blue eyes, and pale skin, i don't think she's likely to be visually identified as "the jewish kid," since most people in the u.s. associate more typically eastern european features with "jewishness" in appearance).
there are two girls with the same first name in my kid's daycare class. one is white, one is black. now, my kid is two and doesn't do much of any of this sort of specification yet, but if she said "i love jill" and i said "which jill?" and she said "the black one" i don't see how that's anything other than a descriptor. she could say "the blonde one" or "the one whose mom inexplicably wears crocs with her suit each morning when dropping her off" and i'd know which jill she meant too. she's going to notice that jill and jill have the same name, and really don't look alike--and don't and do have other things in common too. so not to address race/ethnicity/color seems wrong.
i don't think kids equate different with bad, automatically. and i worry that to avoid a frank discussion of differences makes it look secret and bad to them (and at minimum leaves them at sea to form their own views without positive guidance and potentially with negative external influences).
My 5 year old has been talking a lot about how boys have pen ises and girls don't. Yes, I obviously acknowledge that and, per my previous example, when my son mentioned a girl at school had different color skin, I acknowldged that too. When he told me that Harper has 2 mommies, I acknowledged that as well. That doesn't mean I have to flesh it all out with a preschooler and talk about the ramifications of what having same sex parents can mean in our society. I can let him accept that women don't have penises and that Harper has two mommies and that Reva is darker skinned and show him that these things are ok and no big deal. And when he asks me why Reva is darker, we'll talk about how our families are from different places and people whose ancestors come from different parts of the world have special features, but I can do all this without having to have a huge race discussion with them at 5 years old.
I have to say that I really feel overwhelmed by the topic of race. A lot of the times I don't know how to address it. I'm afraid of saying the wrong thing. I am definitely going to check out the Nurture Shock book , especially after reading that article.
My DS is too young to notice anything like this yet, but this post has definitely given some thought on how to approach it.
We live in a very diverse area (DC). I would like to teach him that diversity is a beautiful thing and that we should embrace it wholeheartedly and celebrate our differences. How I will go about doing this is another story, but I imagine that it won't be just a one-time sit down conversation, it will be part of our daily lives. Luckily there are a lot of wonderful events/museums that I can take him to help teach him these lessons.
One thought about color blind children. I love that my DS is friendly and open to everyone. He smiles at you whether you are fat, small, tall, black, white, purple, etc. He wants to be your friend. Of course this comes with toddlerhood and it is such a beautiful innonent time that he will likely never experience again.
Off to the beach
DS 7/18/2010
Handy 2.0 Due Early August
2011/2012 Races
12/17/2011 Christmas Caper 10K
2/11/2012 Have a Heart 5K
3/17/2012 DC RNR Half Marathon
4/22/2012 10M Parkway Classic
10/28/2012 Marine Corps Marathon
I'm having a hard time articulating my thoughts on this, so bear with me.
I think the women that have posted that they don't feel like they should talk about race are acting in white privilege. That isn't really something I find to be negative in this case, but you don't have to talk to your kids, because your kids are white. They won't automatically get what it means or feels like to be a minority in this country, so their life is all good. Granted, situations may come up where they have issues, but generally speaking, the lives of white children are better off in this country.
However, speaking about the differences and reminding them of what you were saying about different not being bad is vital, imo. Telling a kid that your teacher is Korean, is good. Talking about cultural differences is good. Saying that all people should be treated with respect and kindness no matter their skin color is good. They go hand in hand. To ignore the issue as a way for your kids to figure it out themselves is, also IMO, dangerous. Especially with society and how people view minorities.
They'll get the information from somewhere, and it might not be good information. I guess, I'd just be mindful of that. Open dialogue, continuing conversation.
Zuma Zoom
Exactly and yet parents continue to stick their head in the sand.
Click me, click me!
OK, I want to address this and then I HAVE to take my 3 yo to MDO! Gosh this board can make me loose a whole day (in a good way)
By way of example, a friend of mine posted a blog on her FB page the other day. It was a white woman expressing sympathy and sorrow to Trayvon's mom. It talked about how she was white and never really understood what black people go through until she adopted a son from Ethiopia. Anyway, it was a very touching story, but in part of it she talked about how before she had a black son, she was always had this sense of pride in having "black friends." And my friend, who is black, was sopissedoff about that. She was like "if you're happy I'm your 'black' friend, please unfriend me on FB...." and this isn't the 1st time I've seen this kind of reaction.
This is how most of my minority friends have always been. "Don't refer to me as your black friend. I'm just your friend." This has been my experience with all people I have known well my adult life. I think it would be disingenuous for me to believe otherwise, like I know better. I have to trust what the people I care about and have relationships with have expressed. yes, this same friend will be the one shouting "i'm a strong, black woman, cancer survivor, single mother, champion of the world" from the rooftops, but that doesn't mean she wants me telling my husband "I'm having dinner with one of my black friends tonight" because, as I keep saying, in that part of the discussion it's not relevant.
This whole thing reminds me of the "talk to your kids about drugs/smoking/sex/drinking/Jesus/etc." because if you don't, then they're going to get their information and formulate ideas from other people. Those other people more than likely being their friends or the Internet.
i can't speak for your friend or for people of color, but i'm pretty sure there's a difference between "don't make me your token" and "please ignore everything about my racial makeup."
I was actually hoping you would chime in.
I do get what you are saying. This is actually something I was thinking as reading all of this because, while I can try to empathize, I will never truely understand what it is like to be a minority. I try to talk to the girls when things come up but I am always questioning if it was the right thing to say.
This goes with that billboard concept. It's not something that should be an indicator for you in your relationship with your friends. Black people are friendly. So you don't have to call them out for being so. It does make them seem like some exception to the rule.
If you were describing your friends looks, as in you're looking for them in a crowded restaurant, saying they are black isn't an issue. It is part of their identity, not a qualifier.
Zuma Zoom
Well, in my opinion, your friend is a hypocrite and rude as f*ck. What I'm reading from that woman's story is that she figured she had an idea of what black people when through because of her "black friends", but didn't really get a grasp on it until having to see every day the issues her own son was having. And that's probably a very true fact, and she should not have been called out for that.
And I hate it when black women or black men or gay women or WHATEVER are all "I AM *INSERT RACE/SEXUAL PREFERENCE HERE" AND I AM PROUD." And then get pissed and are all "I'm not your BLACK FRIEND." If you are choosing to have your race be a strong part of who your identity (as it should be), then don't get pissy when people also make your race a strong part of your identity. I have no problem when people are like "she's my black friend", because honestly most of my friends are white and I'm probably the only black friend they've got, so it's a hell of a lot easier when talking about me to other people to refer to me as their black friend because then they automatically know who I am if they don't already know my damn name.
I am their friend, and I am black, so saying that I'm their black friend is simple fact.
oh my god, no one is saying that! No one said that, in this thread, or in that article. The point is, when your friend comes over, if your kid says, "wow, she has such pretty hair! Why is my hair so light and hers is so dark and curly? I want pretty curly hair!" You can answer with something that acknowledges that everybody's different, and that hey, look, our skin is different color too, and did you ever notice that Pamela has red hair while yours is blonde? Not just, get uncomfortable when your kid brings up anything to do with race (which is what many white parents would do), and quickly say "oh yes yes pretty, we have to go now."
The dialogue is good. I was listening to more Tim Wise (surprise surprise) he made a good point, which I think you touched on. White people tend to be nervous about bringing up race because they're afraid they're going to say the wrong thing and be called out as a racist.
People have to get past that. haha. Open dialogue, asking questions, recognizing problems, offering solutions, keeping an open mind. It all needs to happen for relevant progress to occur.
Zuma Zoom
This reminds me of when I was 16 and on a church trip away from home. My pastor's wife made me cry because she got huffy with me for saying that black people are different than white people.
I wasn't saying we were unequal. I was simply saying that all the shiit my white friend was doing to and putting in her hair was not going to work in mine because I'm black. My pastor's wife was insulted by that line of thinking and cast me the emu eye. Granted, she didn't say anything evil to me but I felt like shiit with all my surging 16 year old emotions and I bawled.
It didn't help that whenever I discussed race with that particular friend, she never failed to bring up how horribly her Indian ancestors suffered and how it's exactly the same thing as being black now and she totally knows because of the aforementioned Indian ancestors (despite the fact that she's a total whitey mcwhiterson)
Click me, click me!
I don't think anyone was implying that a 1 hour lecture on race to a 5 year old was necessary or appropriate. Or that this is one big discussion. It should be a lot of different discussions based on conversations brought up by your child and some brought up by you in being proactive. I am not understanding the defensiveness in this.
Unfortunately a lot of people are taken off guard when their child says something regarding diversity and instead of addressing it they ignore it because they don't know the answer. I know I sometimes have to think about how I want to frame something, and then bring it up with my kid again a little later. The point I think is that you know these kind of questions would and should come up and we shouldn't be scared to address it. For kids that are not in a diverse environment, I think parents need to be even more proactive because their kids are not likely to see these things to even bring up the question.
Help me out here. I've always followed my child's lead in talking about race, which started when he was about 3 kindly informed me that I was pink and he was yellow. We also follow his lead in talking about adoption and sex. It seems like a natural "teachable moment," to use some jargon.
We're a multiracial family, live in a mainly African-American neighborhood, and they attend a very diverse (not just racially, but also economically, religiously, and linguistically) public magnet school.
I've only felt horror when my 7-year-old told me that his bestie was mean because he was African-American. I wanted to know where he got that idea, as those are not beliefs consistent with those of our family. Turns out he heard it from another friend at school. Trust me, that conversation is not over.
I totally agree that there is an aspect of white privilege to it because I don't have to tell my kids that someone might think they're dangerous just because they're wearing a hoodie. I am constantly conflicted about how I feel about that. Lucky? Maybe. Sick? Maybe. I don't know. I sympathize but can never truly understand so what do I do? I honestly don't know. I engage in discussions like this and try to sort it out.
But please go back and read what I said. I do acknowledge ethnic differences. My kids school is secular but they celebrate/discuss pretty much all religious holidays- from Christmas to Diwali. They come home and we talk about what they learned. They notice things and we say "Makiko speaks that language because her parents are from Japan and that's called Japanese. Here are 2 words I know in Japanese..."
And please understand that this comes from an honest place. I want my kids to be accepting and open and to respect people's differences without ever feeling that someone different is bad. I believe, based on my own experiences growing up and my friends in my adult life, that letting them express cultural/ethnic/racial differences is good but that I am never going to arbitrarily sit them down and talk about it like it's an "issue" because I feel like, by putting that out there, I create the potential for it to actually become one.
This thread has actually made me think about something, which is a freakin' miracle considering it is the Nest.
Race is not something that I think about, that I consider, that has any perceived effect on me at all in my day-to-day life. If I sit down and think about things in a global sense, then it crosses my mind. But living life in a small town with a greater than 95% white population (more aboriginal residents than black) it feels very artificial to bring up race as it applies in our daily life.
That is why I have intentionally asked my kids to describe different people on the tv. My 4 year old was most articulate about one person on tv wearing underwear (Thomas Magnum and his fabulous short shorts) and his friend who flies the helicopter (TC - a black man). Underwear and a helicopter, those were the standout features to him. Do I redirect his attention to the skin? And if so, what do I say other then, yup: pinky beige and dark brown.
Is it white privilege? And what is that exactly if virtually everyone around you has that 'privilege'?
Whatever, HAB. Since my great-great-great-grandmother was on the Trail of Tears, I totes know what it's like to be a minority that faces discrimination. My Scottish coloring and affluent suburban upbringing don't change that.
YOU DON'T KNOW MY LYFE!
RACIST!
This is a great perspective and one I am happy to have read.
Kids are definitely not color blind. But I imagine they might understand they shouldn't discuss race if the adults around them pretend it doesn't exist.
I spent this weekend with a newly 5 year old girl and her 6 year old brother. They are both black. I am white and my husband--who was also there is Hispanic. Onmultiple occasions the five year old brought up race without prompting. For example we went to her soccer game. On the drive there she told me that she is the only "brown skinned" girl on the team. Later that evening I was showing her pictures from when she was a baby and told her "when you were a baby you cried a lot" to which she responded, "that's because I didn't like white people." Now that was funny, and cute but throughout the weekend it was clear that both kids think about race often. And when other kids say (within earshot) to their parents "mommy that boy is so dark!" is there any doubt that they would?
HAB, I think one of my first post on this board was related to my daughter's curly ass hair that I didn't now how to take care of because I have very straight hair. We are both white. I give that church lady the stink eye on behalf of your 16 yr old self because she is a jerk.