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I'd like to discuss religious upbringing of children
As much as I'm not a believer, my kids need some sort of base religious knowledge which is seriously lacking.
For background, I was raised Episcopalian. DH was raised Catholic in England.
We were married in the church of England.
First two sons were baptized catholic in England. third child is a heathen but otherwise well adjusted :-)
When we got married, since i didn't have strong feelings I told DH we could raise the children catholic but he'd be responsible for their religious education.
DH has done nothing he doesn't take them to church, hasn't signed them up for CCD, etc.
I have taken kids to church several times. Probably a little heavier towards the local catholic church just to appease DH. I don't feel comfortable there and even less so since they changed the service last fall.
I've gone to the Episcopal church a few times. I always feel comfortable there and everyone is always so friendly and say hello, stop and chat etc (I know members from outside fo church). No one ever does this at the catholic church even though I know a lot of people there too.
I tried signing the boys up for CCD since DH hasn't done it. I called the office at the catholic church and they weren't at all helpful. My experience was a big turn off.
How do I get my DH to come around us joining the episcipal church? He complains about having to go to CofE schools growing up. I still don't understand and he can't seem to verbalize why catholicism is so important. When I ask he just shuts down. He can't take communion in the catholic church since he is divorced and didn't have his first marriage anulled.
I'm really worried if my kids don't get a basic understanding of christianity they are going be more likely to be prone to becoming born-agains which would be a major parenting fail in my eyes.
Re: I'd like to discuss religious upbringing of children
If you like the Episcopalian church, then keep going. Start bringing the boys and take them to Sunday School (or whatever Episcopalians call it).
If your DH doesn't go, then he doesn't go. Dh comes with me to Easter and Christmas service. That's what he feels comfortable doing right now and I'm not going to push him further. He didn't grow up with a religion so he doesn't miss the routine of going to a service.
What's helped is that Dh will ask how it went and I will tell him the main point of the sermon and occasionally we'll kinda fit it in to other things we've been dealing with anyway. I think when DD is older and going to Sunday School I might be able to convince DH to go more often. I always bring DD with me now even though its just the nursery. That way we both get to know everyone and they get to know us. You really don't know half of me until after you've experience the wrath of DD
.
the problem is he gets upset when I take them to the episcipal church and says I broke my promise to raise the children catholic. My retort always is well he isn't and he said he'd be responsible for religious ed
Above Us Only Sky
FWIW, my parents did give me an intro to religion. I was baptized and confirmed as a Lutheran.
But I found the inconsistencies in my parents' lifestyle turned my away from the faith. I could tell their hearts weren't "in it", if that makes sense. So the hypocrisy turned me away.
I then came to Christ and was born again later in life. So I guess your child could become born again as a result of your just wanting to expose them to the basics instead of being fully engaged.
Sorry.
This is one of my husband's major reasons for wanting to raise our children in a Christian faith. Lol.
I can see why Catholicism is important if you were raised Catholic. It is THE religion. It's not just an "option" the way it seems in many of the more established protestant faiths (like, if you don't like your local Presbyterian Church, try the Methodist Church down the street, not really a problem). I don't know. Catholicism sees itself as quite separate and different and more, well, right. I know everyone thinks they're "right," so I'm not really explaning this well, but my experience with people who were raised Catholic is that there's Catholic, and then there's everything else.
Anyway, does your H have to be on board? My dad was raised Catholic and his father never converted - so basically, it was his mother's insistance that he take his first communion and attend CCD that made his religious upbringing. I wouldn't expose my children to a church that wasn't of my own faith if my husband wasn't interested in helping. If he's insisting on Catholicism, he needs to buck up and do it. If not, then just keep bringing them to the Epicopalian church when you can.
40/112
I stayed a member of the Catholic church for a long time as an adult, even though I wasn't interested in attending. I figured I'd baptize my kids in the Catholic church, too, since it was what I knew, and what I was expected to do.
Maybe your H hasn't verbalized, to you, what is so important about the Catholic church because he hasn't figured it out himself. Maybe the fact that "it just isn't" seems more emotional than logical to him, and he's trying to come up with a logical reason.
If you want your kids to have a religious upbringing, take them to the Episcopalian church where you're comfortable. If you're going to be primarily responsible for this part of their life, I think the most important thing is that you feel comfortable; if it is strained, your kids will sense that and begin to wonder WTF they're doing there.
Plus, the Episcopal church is fairly similar, in style (I guess depending on your church), to the Catholic church so when/if your H decides to join you he should feel fairly comfortable there. One thing that seemed awkward/uncomfortable to me when I started going to the Episcopal church was how outgoing/friendly everybody was; like you said it's often not that way at a Catholic church. Maybe try to prepare him for that.
I think as long as he isn't actively working against you, your kids can still get a great introduction to religion w/o feeling too conflicted. I grew up with a Methodist father and a Catholic mother and went to Catholic church six times per week (five during the week at my Catholic school and once on Sunday) and I always knew that it was ok that we weren't "All the same."
Good luck - I'm sure you're doing just fine by your kids!
Honestly I'd talk to him and give him 2 options.
1) he starts being involved in their religious upbringing and taking the to mass, CDC, etc.
Or
2) you will be taking them to the church where you feel comfortable.
I think that's fair and if it's that important to him he'll step up if not then he has to accept that if your doing the work you get to make the call.
Isn't their some history discrimination against Catholicism in England? A catholic can't be heir to throne, couldn't live within London at one time, Northern Ireland, etc. Could it be a slightly subconscious need to hold onto it for that reason?
Have you tried attending service at a different Catholic church? Sometimes you need to shop around, so to speak, before you find a more comfortable environment.
Tell him that until he sticks to his promise, you will take the kids to the Episcopal church where you feel most comfortable at the moment.
we've tried the three in the area.
Above Us Only Sky
FWIW my grandmother dropped my dad and his siblings at church every sunday and then left and did something (no one ever knew what). He ended up going to seminary
Above Us Only Sky
Our intent when the kids get older is to talk to them about various religions, and take them to different types of services, without actually joining any individual congregation (other than possibly the UU's if we decide we want the community aspect of it, but that doesn't require DH or I changing our belief structure).
I don't think you have to immerse your kids into one specific religion to give them a basic understanding of religion. For us, we want to make sure they get exposure to both Christianity and other world religions so they have a reasonable opportunity to find what's right for them in their own time, with as little baggage from us as possible.
Has he come with you to any of them? What does he think of them? Have you told him, "no offense, but I hate all the Catholic churches in our area"? Has he been to the Episcopal Church.
40/112
From what I understand, UUs have an excellent childrens program, where they learn about world religions and are encouraged to come to their own conclusions.
I would love to try the UUs but the closest one is 20 miles from our house.
fwiw I miss the sense of community I had at church growing up. I think that is hard to replicate
Above Us Only Sky
He is being unfair here, if he did indeed promise to take charge of their religious upbringing.
I sort of ditto mmm's characterization of Catholics thinking they are the one, true religion in a way that those of other faiths do not. My H has actually said this and says he was told this in Catholic school. He struggles a lot with Catholicism and is having a big crisis of faith right now (triggered, ironically, by attending a recent evening Mass with a guest priest who discussed, IIRC, how the Holy Trinity can be one and the same yet separate. My H came home completely deflated because he thought the priest essentially bullsh*t his way through the supposed explanation. To be fair, however, he has always focused on inconsistencies in Catholic teachings). He is angry* and now questioning whether we should stop attending church altogether and possibly pull the kids out of Catholic school.
I have offered to raise the kids Protestant and take the lead. Like you, I feel much more comfortable in my own church and I find the congregants to be far more interested in actually interacting with others. At our Catholic Church, people seem to want to get in and out as quickly as possible, and it's a cold feeling, as though the entire process is merely perfunctory.
Having married into a Catholic family, what I've learned is that some Catholics are their own special breed of conflicted. They will defend Catholicism to the death and believe that the culture of Catholicism is a significant part of who they are. However, they can also get extremely angry about Catholicism, almost to the point that they behave as though they feel downright abused by it. I've mentioned this before on here, but it's fascinating watching my husband and others in his family struggle with their faith because the issue runs much deeper than belief in God. I'm not sure anyone can fully articulate the struggle and that may be what you are seeing with your H.
I have no solutions; I merely wanted to empathize a bit.
*ETA: To be clear, his anger has been building for many years and was not triggered by one lousy Mass. That was merely the proverbial straw.
yes he's been to them, but I don't think he's been to any of them in at least 3 years
Above Us Only Sky
What about Quaker or UCC?
I agree with you about community. I was never much of a believer, not that my church really required much belief, but I was incredibly active in my church activities and made some of my closest friends there. Ironically, we're all atheists now
My Catholic guilt is currently wreaking havoc with me about this same thing. DH really does NOT care, so it's totally up to me. I just haven't found a "home" at our local Catholic church, so I rarely go, which means my oldest (who has been through first communion) is missing out on confirmation, the middle one barely knows who Jesus even *is* and the baby :::clutches pearls::: isn't even baptized yet.
It really does bother me, in all honesty. I'm sort of at a loss.
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You can attend various churches over the years until you find one you just don't want to leave...
I am totally effing up my kids though because we attend a nondenominational Christian church that we LOVE! In fact this morning we were there stuffing bulletins and the kids ran around the campus with another kid and had a great time while I volunteered for a few hours...it's just a comfortable place to be. However, they go to a Catholic School and attend mass, learn about Catholcism etc. They also teach about other religions at their school too so realistically they are all over the place. I have told them what myself and my husband believe but that they are really in control of their own "faith journey." In fact they are not baptized and will not be until they have a full understanding of what they are dedicating themselves to....could be this year, next year, when they are twelve or..never. I hope it's not never but I can't control their beliefs.
I grew up in a mish-mash of religion. My first memories of church were going to a rural Lutheran church. Not long after she started dating my sister's dad we stopped going to church at all. She said that everyone was a hypocrite (thinking back on it, I wonder if racism didn't come into play).
Anyway, I became a godless heathen in my classmates parents' eyes, and they volunteered to take me to church with them for Sunday worship and Wednesday night youth meetings. I went through catechism with my Catholic friends up until the time for first communion. I attended Lutheran, Catholic, Mennonite, American Baptist, and E-Free services. In High School I helped with various congregations VBS programs. I was sort of a Jack of All Trades church goer.
Through it all, I found my grandparent's church (United Methodist) to be the one that I most identified with.
Really, that's a long winded way to say, I'm glad that I had such a wide and varied sampler of Christianity. I hope I can give ZB the same opportunity to find her place in this world. (She also isn't baptized yet as DH was uncomfortable with this idea as he grew up as Baptist.)
" sort of ditto mmm's characterization of Catholics thinking they are the one, true religion in a way that those of other faiths do not. My H has actually said this and says he was told this in Catholic school."
My DD's 3rd grade teacher seems really upset by the fact that we are not Catholic and BTW there are many people there that claim to be Catholic but are more cultural Catholic and some atheists but it's not discussed. But I swear sometimes she is trying to convert her. It actually is kind of funny to me. I mean really...we love Jesus. Let's leave it at that.
Interesting dilemma, because I'm currently having a similar one in our house.
DH was raised Catholic by his very Catholic mother. His father JUST joined the Catholic church (as in, this weekend).
In the 8 years we've been together, DH has never gone to church on his own accord. He doesn't even do Easter or Christmas with his family anymore. He tends to label himself agnostic.
Suddenly, he wants the baby baptized (and possibly raised) Catholic, or at least "something" (his words). I said if DH starts attending mass/church regularly, then fine. But I'm not agreeing to it until he himself shows the slightest bit of interest in at least attending. If he won't make the commitment himself, why should I?
I'm fine with the kids being taught Christianity, provided that I can also say "and mommy doesn't believe that...whatever you believe is fine" type thing.
Its tricky, thats for sure.
I love this response, AW. There really is no controlling it, OP.
Read Parenting Beyond Belief. http://www.amazon.com/Parenting-Beyond-Belief-Raising-Religion/dp/0814474268/
This is almost exactly my story. I know I'm not as religiously conservative as AW but I'm not that far off either.
Obviously there is no proven way to keep your kids from becoming born again but all of my atheist friends were raised Catholic.
You will want to read some of the results of the Barna Group research studies on religion concerning parents and children and faith development.
Basically if parents do not participate and practice their faith - neither will the children. Letting kids "chose when they are older" leads to them choosing nothing more often than not.
If you are looking for a more liberal Christian experience rather than the Fundamental/Evangelical bent that is popular in your area you might want to consider Universal Unitarian or a Methodist church (ALthough individual Methodist churches can vary considerably)
Helper, you're very supportive of your atheist SD. Unless you want to go to church for your own sake, why not give your kids an introduction to religion at home? I had a children's bible that I read cover to cover many times over. My parents taught me prayers. They took me to seder dinners at friends' homes. They bought me books about the Greek mythology, about Inuit creation stories, about Bedouin beliefs, and every other religion they could find. My best friends in elementary and junior high school were Muslim, Bhuddist, and Jewish, and in your neck of the woods you can't offer that except by shipping them off to Idyllwild or someplace similar for sleepaway camp when they're old enough, but you can definitely expose them to Europeans who don't have the same beliefs and every kind of book on the subject.
For a lot of the reasons Sisugal cited, it was incredibly easy for me to see that faith was going to be a ridiculous path for me. But my background also didn't leave me missing anything that's going to put me at any risk of becoming a fundamentalist. There's no mystery in it and none of the magical promises hold any temptation, because I grew up seeing 40 different ways that people were trying to give themselves the same comfort.